Adam Balic

I doubt that modern Turkish cooking is based entirely on the Ottoman tradition either. Much of the mainland Greek population would seem to be slavic, but irrespective of ethnic group, they were still dominated by the Ottomans. I don't think that anybody is saying that modern Greek food is entirely based on Ottoman cuisine, but certainly much of it is. So do the Greeks have a definable cuisine or is it another variation on the theme of being the cuisine of an Ex-Ottoman state?

Not sure Prof. I'm no expert on Greek and Turkish cuisine.

Back to Jason's point: if we follow the thesis that refined food follows wealth, what has the Onassis family been eating all these years? French food obviously.

I'm not picking on Greece. In this instance we are discussing the merits of what makes a cuisine, a cuisine, using the straight forward example Turkish and Greek foods. I'm not sure that we have demonstrated that these definitions can be made. If this is the case then, it changes the merits of conclusions drawn in many discussions on cuisine, regionality etc.

Although there clear simlarities it's important to remember that Turkey is a (largely) Muslim country and Greece a Christian one. So, no pork in Turkey (lots of booze though, admittedly), but also different types of emphasis, different foods on feast days, different food rituals, different slaughter methods etc. which taken together probably creates enough differences for them to warrant separate consideration. I was wondering when somebody would bring this up. Greek food and the Church are intimately associated.

I don't agree at all on this. The are more similar to each other then Alsacian and Provincial cooking (or Provincial and Burgundian for that matter). So if I can't have my post-Ottoman cuisine term, you can't have French cuisine.

Exactly. So why can't Turkish and Greek food be grouped under the same cuisine label then?

Or is that backwards? Is Turkish cuisine a refined version of the rustic cuisines of the Ottoman Empire? I know we have had these conversations before but, a simple roasting of a leg of lamb served with natural jus had to come before someone figured out you can strain and thicken the jus to make gravy. To me, add enough technique and you come away with a distinct cuisine. Well what you say could be and almost certainly is in part, however I know that the Ottomans were very into there food and that certain types of Chefs came from particular famed villages or were trained extensively in 'schools'. I don't think this is true any longer, so I would think that modern Turkish cooking is less refined then the cusine of the Ottoman empire. Basically, you had many different levels of cuisine in the empire, from very refined court food, down to the more rustic level that you mention. Prehaps, much of the food that we see now is desended from the more rustic cuisine and this has been refined. Steve - I see your point, but I think that we have different perspectives on the definition of "Cuisine". I see what you are getting at in terms of refinement/levels of cuisine, but I was think more along the lines of 'food from a similar historical origin, that is not significantly different, except in details of refinement etc, is are both part of the same cuisine. Turkish is more haute though.

Yes, I have no problem with Turkish food, in general, being more refined then Greek food, in general (Although, in Melbourne in terms of comparing restuarants the reverse is generally more true and this is a function of when the two immigrant groups came out to Australia, rather then reflecting true differences in Cuisine). However, The original point was: Are the two cuisines sufficiently different to warrant them been classified as seperate cuisines. One may very well be more refined then the other, but this does not imply that they are different cuisines. From what I can see here, Greek cuisine is largely based on and is a more rustic version of Turkish cuisine. Or is this incorrect?

Steve - my comment wasn't ment to be specifically critical of you, what I am saying is that if we are going to make statements on cuisine then we really should have a well informed statement, rather comments based the small amount of personal experience that we have (especially, when that personal expeirence is based on restaurants not in the country of origin). Are you saying chopped is different to ground/minced (yes, I know that it is, but I want to be clear that you are making a distinction)? Yes, you can get small ground/minced/chopped lamb sausages/patties on sticks/skewers in Greece. They are Turkish in origin and you find them in many Ex-Ottoman ruled lands (Cevapci/kebab "skewered"etc). Yes, you get humus in Greece. Remember that many Greeks are from Turkey (remember that exchange of populations between Turkey and Greece in the '50s (?), many of these "Greeks" couldn't even speak Greek.

'Mezze' is a word in Turkish in fact, although I assume the same word is used in other languages in the region as well. Someone mentioned that many Turkish restaurants bill themselves as 'Mediterranean'. This is true here in Seattle as well, and my guess is that it is because most Americans would have no idea what to expect from a 'Turkish' restaurant, but 'Mediterranean' doesn't sound very threatening..... The issue is not that the two countries foods have differences, the issue is are they significantly different from each other to be considered seperate cuisines. If we can determine what exactly this means then we have a basis to discuss regionality in other contexts. I do not think that discussing what types of meals that we have had in the USA, UK or Australia, is a sufficient basis for being able distinguish the two cuisines (Or if this is not the case I will have to be the expert on all things Greek as I come from the second largest Greek city in the world ). Some types of Greek cooking do contain pilaw type recipes. One especially famous recipe replaces the rice with rice shaped pasta.

THe use of the singular was me being sloppy. Greece is a very diverse country in terms of geography, history, climate and ethnic groups, to name some obvious catagories. What Greece would you like to talk about? The mainland or the Islands? Which islands and are some islands more "Greek" then others.

Steve Plotnicki: Tony Finch: Adam Balic: Steve PLotnicki: Fatguy: Adam Balic:

Is there a Greek cuisine? How would you seperate it from Turkish cuisine?

Has been bugging me, it is also known as "Calda calda". (warm warm) in some parts of Northern Italy. Sounds like this name is in reference to the street criers calls. Light as a feather? I'd like to know how they did that.

Farinata is just one regional name in Italy (has some funny name in Sicily., I will have to look it up). The only Trofie that I have had in Liguria, have been made out of wheat flour, but it is likely that some primative forms of pasta were made from chestnut flour (still exists in some parts). I think that new world maize largely replaced chestnut, chickpea and buckwheat in polena/bread type peasant dishs. Anyway I will try to keep this one topic as I also have a 3 pound bag of gram flour to use this weekend.

You can also get socca in Italy (it has several different names, depending on location (Liguria and Sicily). Real peasant food. In Chianti I had a similar preparation made from Chestnut flour, which is very heavy.

OK, then I'm not cutting edge then . I think I saw this in that great big black book that he published recently. I wonder if you can make a stuffed pasta with this agar agar media? Rhubarb or Quince flavoured (pink coloured from fruit) consomme agar agar ravioli, with a lamb and mint stuffing. Bottle of Billecart-Salmon vintage rose bubbles. Watch out world!

Re Adria: Ah, is that how he did it! I have access to his books and noticed a picture of this dish while flicking through, but didn't read the recipe. I discussed the idea with a friend and as we thought that it was gelatin based it's mouthfeel and fragility would make it not worth the effort. Agar agar is an completely different beast and I should have guessed that he used it (having eaten enough coconut milk, panadanus and agar agar based SE -Asian sweets). I will have to give this an attempt. Would make and interesting dish to serve for a Salmi of game for instance. I have a Chittarra, so no problem with cutting up the noodles. Thanks Steve!

Oh, I wasn't trying to suggest that it had absolutely no flavour, just that I though that it wouldn't be particularly detectable in something as strongly flavoured as a jam or even a fruit desert. I hav noticed that in some bavatian mousse preparations, the texture of the gelatine is more noticable, is this an indication of too much gelatine being used or more an issue about methodology. One final thing Steve, do pastry chefs use much agar agar as a setting agent? It melts at a higher temperature then gelatine, but its texture is quite different, so any uses for this vegan product?

I don't think that the gelatine, form pigs or other animals, has very much flavour at all. After all, many French deserts contain gelatine as a setting agent. The problem is with the texture of the product, which is why many jams include either added pectin or agar.

Prof. Sam. - Yes indeed. And Baked Bean versions as well. Pie crust is groovy though, free standing coffins - very medieval. Jinmyo - figures. The guy is a self confessed potential puppy eater, so there you go really.

All fried products are as nothing in he face of the mighty Edinburgh Deep Fried Pizza. Think Frozen McCain's, dipped in batter and deep fried (batter keeps the topping on). Andy thanks. I thought "Cheap" and "Fucks" may be involved.

Irishcream - difficult for me to advise as I am not in the USA. Nomeclature on onions would seem to be as complex as fish names. What I would call a "Spanish Onion" (from an Australian background) is a red onion. Having been to Spain in the last year I cooked with some red onions that had brilliant white flesh, but very red skin. They also were very sweet and I could happily eat one raw. Not surprisingly, this onion wasn't known as a Spanish onion in Spain. Best thing I could suggest is that you ask the grocer, I'm sure they would be very happy that somebody has taken an interest.

Jinmyo - as far as I am aware Bourdain's A Cook's Tour hasn't made it to UK TV yet, unless it is on one of those fancy satalite stations. Actually, what gives here? If St. John etc are on the show, why isn't on UK TV?