oraklet

no, adam, 'cause this is the scientific way of seeing it: and that is trying to be overly precise on matters that are not important to the central issue of a craft: doing your job well, whichever way you do it, whether you're aware of all the steps you take or it's become second nature to you.

but any gourmet will to some extend do that. you are served the first course. you look at it. "looks kinda dull." you take a bite. "oh! this is strange...interesting...delicious, in fact. why?", and immediately you start analyzing it. the chef does the same thing, only he works the other way round. it's not a science. it's a craft.

please: this is not about supertasters. neither is it about extreme conditions nor ingeneous ways of cheating us into thinking we taste something we don't. its about normal, or relatively normal conditions in the art of cooking and eating well . and regarding these conditions, i think plotz and i have said what is sensible and true. those disagreeing have wasted a lot of energy fighting ghosts. re-reading what we've said, i don't even think that we've been unclear, except perhaps where we've been lured into semi-scientific sophistry. dixit.

just one thing: most tests are performed with "average" people, not trained craftsmen. trained to focus on the important issues and to ignore "noise". not infallible, but pretty reliable in comparison to the average. edit: i once saw two musicians rehearsing in the same room. two different pieces of music, though. each of them perfectly contained in his own world. the noble art of shotting out noise!

not my grandfather, though oh, and by the way: this started out as a discussion of the importance of presentation to taste. a discussion, remember, on egullet, not in your local newspaper. we're not common folks (though some of us are quite poor). we are foodies of different degrees. we taste. we analyze. we judge. we say: "well, maybe a little less lime zest and a little more lime juice". do you really, really think that kind of judgement is influenced by presentation? edit: adam, i do know quite a few who certainly would be fooled...

"Extreme scientific experiments? Where, the last example I saw presented by a scientist (well, the Prof. anyway) was a straight forward comparison of the abitlity of 'experts' to taste wine." (balic) the wine-experts-being-fooled has the ring of...er...incredibility, don't you feel? i mean, who were those "experts"? how was it controlled? personally i know a few who would almost certainly not be fooled under the described circumstances. my "extreme scientific experiments" was a hint at the research indiagirl (and i believe, others) brought up. interesting but, excuse me, irrelevant. damn, the smelling and tasting ability of most top chefs and their connaisseur counterparts aren't exactly impaired, no? this is about having spent years at gaining knowledge of what are the elements of a trade. just like any graphic artists knows more about perspective than most laymen do, so is any line cook superior to most laymen in knowledge of, say, sauteeing. and when it comes to the top chefs and their audience of globetrotting gourmets - well, you may draw your own conclusions. or do you subscribe to the "emperor's new clothes" theori?

garwsh! it must be danish, i guess...everybody i know makes it for "frikadeller" (meatballs of a kind). spinach, butter, reduced cream, nutmeg. yep, that's as danish as can be. if it's not german, of course. or french i'm actually going to make it tonight!

let's see: we've got a trade, fine cooking. fine craftsmen, some of them perhaps even artists, are employed in the trade. the products, fine food and most times fine service and surroundings, are sold to discriminating connaisseurs, gourmets. that's what we're talking about, right? so what's the fuss about? isn't it obvious to everybody that, inside this context, craftsman and connaisseur are to a large degree in possesion of the same ability to perform an objective analysis of the subject matter? why drag in silly or irrelevant examples of paintings seen in inferior lighting or extreme scientific experiments? is it the word "objective"? does that bother you? okay, it's not objective in the sense that it's infallible. it's objective in the sense that the object in question is isolated and analyzed to a degree that is professional, that is, an analysis which can be used to judge the quality of any products of the trade. this is actually the most important part of any craftsman's training. but perhaps this is very difficult to understand if you're not yourself a craftsman. anyway, it's the naked truth. take the words of a craftsman for that.

brit, that's not fair. though on other threads plotz may have been...a bit overzealous, i think his efforts here - like mine - have been directed towards sorting out the problems in bundling taste, visual impressions, ambience etc. - and pointing out that, to the expert of a trade, it's second nature to analyze these things as single parts. and every trained craftsman knows this to be true.

why shouldn't it? give up, guys. plotters is right.

so, i served the fondant potatoes for 21 guests last saturday, and they were very, very nice (though not absolutely perfect - some of them had split). baked for 2 h. at 120C, lid on, and 1/2 hour at 230C, lid off, convection. made with chicken and duck stock plus lots of butter. mmmm. served with sliced slow-pan-fried duck breast and finely sliced sauteed cabbage with orange peel zest and -juice. (next time i'll add koriander) thanx, everybody!

solution seems to be to find out which sizes you need: for stock, for a little leftover dinner, for a lot of leftover dinner, for school lunches etc. - i've ended up with 4 different sizes being enough, and those can, ideally, be stacked. problem is that we've got all those vintage round tupperwares, too, and don't have the heart to throw them out... those dedicated for flour, beans etc. are in constant use, so no problem there.

"no space-wasting round containers" indeed! "you might even get to pet the little critters as you take them out to the trash bin." yeah, i'll pet'em with a pot, i will.

then perhaps i've been overly suspicious towards it...while scandinavian modern design as a whole is of high standards, this is not the case with kitchen tools and gadgets (a canadian friend once said: "if the knife is all steel, doesn't cut and falls off the plate, take a close look at it: you can be sure it says "scando design" somewhere"). too much emphasis on looks. still, i think i'd prefer a magnetic rack if it's safe for the edges.

egg-based sauces/creme anglaise? chokolate? i could use one.

i'm getting out of here - and fast.

honestly, it looks like a silly gadget. the plastic will soon be cut by the knives, get ragged and make storing the knives difficult. and they may say it holds 15 knives, but do take a look at the moma-link: it will hold no more than 6 of the globals shown there. and apparently not big enough to hold a really big (say 12") knife.

the lustau i've had with cheese was rich/sweet. very nice, actually, but not for cheese!

hmm. yes. well. er... "People don't mostly go to a restaurant for enjoyment" but yes, the total enjoyment of taste, presentation, surroundings etc. - and i guess most diners do not analyze it into single elements. to them, a steak seems to taste better in good company. this is where egulletteers will be more prone to differ. and i'll stick to my statement: a chef or a gourmet will be able to switch on his analytical apparatus at any time, should he wish to make an objective judgement of what's before him.

problem with this way of stating it is, people mostly go to a restaurant for enjoyment etc. as for the taste issue, you know the answers

we had only four cheeses and two wines, as it was part of a 5-course meal: french matured goat (well balanced) brie de meaux (not the best i've had, too dried out) muenster (rich without being over-ripe, very good) gorgonzola (one of the best i've had) tricastin (dryish, lots of tannin) amarone (not of the over-sweet kind) i've had both good port/lustau and sweet whites with cheese at other times and never liked it, but i'll have to admit that the amarone was the best choice for every one of the cheeses we tried.

that is probably true. the traditional french attitude to politics is cynical, regardless of political standpoint. that is, politics doesn't as much involve judging persons as judging interests. in usa, lewinsky was close to being the downfall of clinton, whereas in france the president may have several maitresses or be involved in corruption without this having any major impact on his power. likewise, the average frenchman will not let his political point of view influence his conduct towards americans. he will, on the other hand, gladly discuss politics with anybody.

Yawn, ah but this tourist would never make such a sweeping generalisation as: Brie is for tourists. Horrid generic pap for the most part. Give me Epoisses/Munster/Livarot or give me death . obviously, you've never had brie de meaux au lait cru. vacation traveling sightseeer!

try this: http://www.alstrom.dk/product_view.jsp?category=96 it's a small place in copenhagen, and i don't know if they speak english. on the other hand, you should be able to click your way through their site. i'm not sure, though, that the knife block is large enough for a knife fetichist's needs?

right and wrong: right for the masses, wrong for the elite. the elite, particularly the professionals, of any trade are taught methods of focusing on the objective facts before them. this may of course never be 100% perfect, but it's a lot better than what those outside the trade can do. which is why it's always a treat to hear the elite of a trade discuss things you happen to be interested in: there's so much to learn. and reversely: if they can't "deconstruct" they're not part of the elite.