robyn

OK- lowest common denominator is different than quality control. We have just about every chain in the world imaginable where I live (Jacksonville FL). My biggest quarrel with the food is it's almost always salted to death. If I wanted to weigh 2 pounds more in the morning due to salt/water retention - I'd eat lousy Chinese instead of lousy chain restaurant food. On the other hand - there isn't necessarily anything wrong with wanting to get the same thing again and again if you happen to like it. To give you an example - my husband and I plied the I95 route from Florida north for years and years for various reasons. And we would always try to be adventurous. But when you stop at a non-chain place and wind up with lousy food much more than 50% of the time - you stop trying - except for the couple of non-chain places that seem ok and reasonably consistent. Heck - we sent my brother-in-law and his wife to a non-chain place on their trip north a few weeks ago - a place we like - and there was a sign on the door - "gone fishing - be back soon" - something like that. And this is high season for north/south traffic on I95! I'm glad the place was close to the interstate. I think one factor you leave out of the equation is that people - particularly younger people - tend to be busy these days. And they don't necessarily have a lot of disposable income to experiment with. They don't want to mess around poking around here - poking around there - spending lots of time - lots of money - only to find many places that disappoint the first time - and many that disappoint on subsequent visits. I'm older - I have more time - and I have more money - and I don't even want to deal with it these days. There has been a recent influx of higher end chain restaurants where I live. Places like Roy's. And they have put a lot of local places out of business. I only ate at Roy's once - in Hawaii - and I didn't care for it. But I never returned to any of the places it put out of business either after trying them initially. Too expensive - too inconsistent. One was $150+ for 2 in a Day's Inn where they hadn't spent more than $100 decorating. In another - the chef/owner really needed 4 servers - but only hired 2 on weekdays because he hoped he wouldn't be full. Most didn't bother to spend the bucks to get a full liquor license. So I am not crying for the recently departed. By the way - I was in Minneapolis last year - and I think the only thing you needed to do ok that balmy week in May when spring finally arrived was a patio. Which is why Aquavit didn't make it. Robyn

OK - here it goes again (blew away the message I was writing by accident). I will have to pass on the lunch scene (a la Four Seasons). It's not the kind of thing I'd do as a tourist. And when I was working and had an occasional "business lunch" in New York - it was mostly sandwiches in a conference room. Guess those people saved the Four Seasons for someone else . I think even with very wealthy people - there's a sensitivity to places that are "in - places that are "out" - and places that are on their way out. I remember once - many years ago - we went to Perigord. It was on its way out - but I had heard good things about it. So we went. It was dismal. Food wasn't bad - but the room was empty - and the waiters were like something out of an old movie. I forget which food book it was - maybe Kitchen Confidential - that spoke of restaurants that had the smell of imminent death around them. That was Perigord on our visit. Although I don't need to be in this week's restaurant of the year - I have always avoided the smell of imminent death since then. I think if I lived in New York - I would try to eat in a major restaurant once about every 2 weeks. Of course - if I had to pay New York real estate prices - I'd probably have to stay home and eat day old bread most of the time . By the way - the absolutely best place for buzz/celebrity watching (not necessarily food) in the US in my opinion is LA. I'm at a competitive disadvantage because I don't recognize many celebrities - but it's fun. I lunched next to Selma Hayek and didn't know who she was (my husband told me). And I wouldn't have known that Larry King was sitting next to me at breakfast except there's an old lady who sits outside that restaurant and tells you where all the celebrities are sitting if you give her a few bucks for the Jewish National Fund . And we ate at a somewhat unusual restaurant in Beverly Hills - a "soul food" restaurant - high end fried chicken and fixins'. It was owned by and popular with African Americans. I suspect some of the young guys who were 6'6" or taller and 250 pounds and heavier were basketball or football players - but I didn't have a clue. Along the same lines - I'm clueless even when I'm home. I didn't recognize a Jacksonville Jaguar sitting next to me at a sushi bar one night. Just asked him when he stood up if he was a football player because he was about 6'8" - weighed more than 300 pounds - and had eaten about 20 orders of sushi - he was trying to "make weight" . I would recognize Alan Greenspan - but I've never dined next to him . Robyn

I'm thinking of our last visit to Paris. A three star meal was the highlight of our reservations. The rest of our meals all together didn't cost as much as that dinner, but almost all were interesting and some were special. Nevertheless, the one and two star places didn't attract us. It's not always like that, but there's been more than one post by more than one poster here on eGullet that has expressed the opinion that the best values in NYC are at the very top or at the ethnic restaurant level. When my means were far more modest than they are right now, it was the mid range of restaurants that went untested. Lots of meals in Chinatown would be interspersed with one at the top. A good part of our dining pattern these days however is determind by social dining with friends who may not like the nitty gritty ethnic dining we like and who don't care quite enough about haute cuisine to pay the tabs at the four star places. Thus we see more of the two star places too these days. Of course there are two star places that serve food pushing three or four stars and three star places whose rank is a testament to the lack or discernment of a critic. We still eat that way - the bottom and the top (maybe not the very bottom all the time - but more near the bottom than the very top). The last restaurant we went to in Chinatown - I got the name from somewhere - forget where. When I asked for a gin and tonic - the waiter went out to his car and brought me his own personal bottle of rum to share. And there was more sea cucumber in the dishes than I cared for (it's not my favorite). Oh well - back to the drawing board . We only did a bistro/1/2/3 star restaurant thing in Paris once. First trip - with a friend. He was trying to educate us about the differences - and he picked the restaurants to make his points. It was the first time anyone had tried to teach me and my husband about eating. And the lessons were invaluable. In many ways - including the point you make about restaurants deserving or not deserving their stars (the 2 star was Jamin - which would get its third star in short order). I recommend that approach for a first trip to Paris. Otherwise - we have eaten in 1 and 2 star restaurants in France mostly for our big deal meal in a particular area if there isn't a 3 star - or if the 1/2 star has something special to commend it (like the old Hotel du France in Auch with Andre Daguin in the kitchen). Otherwise - it's 1/2 knife and fork places. Our situation with social dining is exactly the same as yours - except we don't have 4 star restaurants here. The point of the exercise those evenings isn't usually the food though. And I'm content if I get good conversation with friends and a decent meal (actually had one this week at a chain restaurant I'd never been to before - Stonewood Grill - nice plain grilled fish - which I'll settle for any day - bill was $150/4 including tax and tips - no dessert - and everyone had a drink or 2). Only place I draw the line is places like Ruth's Chris (I would not pay almost $200/couple for dinner to get a steak). Robyn

valid point. there are certainly younger people who prefer to not dine where their uncle or parents do. if i didn't think Jean Georges was so good, it would certainly fall into the "old and stodgy" category for me. and whether it is old and stodgy isn't the point. I guess I am as old as aunts or parents. And if I find myself in a restaurant or bar with a lot of younger people - it's usually because I've stumbled into some place by accident - like when I'm walking around looking for a little something after a play - or sought out a place where I can still have a cigarette (in New York that means not many places - and they're usually outside and casual - at least that's the way it was last time I was there). I'll be going down to Boca Raton next week - and there's a courtyard in a small shopping center that has about 4 restaurants. There's a lot of outdoor seating. The place tends to attract a lot of younger people (at least a lot for Boca Raton) for drinks/light food after work and on Fridays/Saturdays. Older crowd for dinner during the week. What kinds of places are trendy/popular with 20 and 30 somethings these days in New York and elsewhere (where I live it's mostly chain places)? Robyn

Watch out for those cherry tomatoes. I planted them one year. Had dozens. Kept watching and watching - and I ate the first one that got ripe. Delicious. By the next day - the birds had discovered them. They pecked a hole in every single one (guess they didn't like tomatoes - but they had to taste all of them to make sure). Robyn

My peas have been in the ground for about 30 days. It is 80 and they are suffering a bit. By the way - I haven't seen any flowers yet. What are peas supposed to do? When do I get to see peas? Planted my mesclun today. It will be good to eat in about 30 days or so. End of season for lettuce here is maybe mid-May or so - depending on the weather. More tender things like basil will go into the ground in about 3-4 weeks. I've heard great things about Texas wildflowers. Is it the season yet? It's camellia/azalea/oriental magnolia season here now. Nice blooms this year. The winter was unusual. We didn't get any terrible freezes - but it was uniformly cool for a long time. So we didn't get one flower here - one flower there - they're all opening up now. Robyn

OK - I said it before - I'll say it again. The biggest factor driving down the dollar until the last couple of weeks is low short term interest rates. If Greenspan raised rates to 3% - you'd see an unbelievable dollar rally. I suppose he is technically part of the administration - but he has been appointed and reappointed by both Republican and Democratic Presidents. The only candidate who said he'd fire Greenspan was Dennis Kucinich. By the way - I don't mean to imply that I agree with what Greenspan has done - but if a Democrat were President today - I think he'd be doing exactly what he's doing now. Robyn

I don't think there's anything wrong about standardization in *any* restaurant if you mean that when you order the same thing twice in a row - you'll get it prepared pretty much the same both nights. This is one of my biggest gripes about all restaurants - that if I like something the first time I go there - and I order it again - it is 50/50 at best that the dish will resemble what I ate the last time (and - most often - I don't like it as much). I think another phrase for "standardization" is "quality control". Robyn

Too tough? Robyn

I suspect there are experiences that are typical for people in certain places or types of places at certain times. There are a lot of people here from NYC - and perhaps other large cities - and I don't think their experiences are typical of people who grew up in newer suburban or rural areas (and it was hard to distinguish between them then - when my husband grew up in Bergen County in the 40's/50's - it was mostly farms - it didn't look anything like it does today - it didn't even resemble what it looks like today when I first met him in the early 70's). My experiences growing up in southern New Jersey were very similar to my husband's. Although I did go out with my family once in a while. Mostly to one restaurant - it was one of the few restaurants around then. Also - you have to remember that the culture of the housewife in these new suburban developments in the 50's was probably a lot different than the culture of a woman living in NYC. We have a local history museum here in north Florida - and the largest 50's exhibit shows a "new" 50's suburban kitchen - the wife was expected to have dinner on the table when her husband got home from work. Robyn

I noticed from the picture that the restaurant even has electricity . By the way - we still have some real fish camps in and around the Jacksonville area. The ones I've been to always get good write-ups - but I didn't care for them (don't think any of them has changed its cooking oil for at least a decade). Robyn

Well - fashions in food do tend to come into and go out of style - and then - years later - some fashions return. But while I can keep something in my closet for 20 years knowing I'll wear it again someday - a restaurant whose food has become unfashionable will go out of business long before its style of cooking becomes trendy again. Although what you're talking about probably exists in most metropolitan areas - it's probably most prevalent in cities like New York. When I was making restaurant reservations in Miami last week - I was surprised how many higher end restaurants that were there when I lived there almost a decade ago are still there. By the way - I don't know how much money you're talking about when you're talking of "moneyed". I have met some really rich people over the years - just a few. The kind who have personal chefs. Seems that most of their home cooking was devoted to special diets - like Pritikin years ago - and I guess Atkins would be popular today. Of course - most of these people were older - and they were always concerned about their health. Robyn

I went to La Mere Blanc a long time ago. Based on what I've read - the town is more like a Blanc theme park these days than the home of a great restaurant. I can't say based on personal experience. But - if it's true - I don't think I'd like it - and the place might not warrant 3 stars. Robyn

Forget about the restaurants. What about the patrons - the local ones - not the out of town patrons like me? If someone's an upper middle class person - or beer and pretzels rich - how many times a year does that person dine in these places? So - even in a city like New York - isn't there a premium placed on being new and trendy? If you're only going to go to a 4 star 2 or 4 or 6 times a year - isn't it better to go to the ones with the current buzz - as opposed to the older more established ones - so you'll have something to talk about at cocktail parties? Sometimes I think that there's so much emphasis on this week's restaurant of the year that a lot of new places never have the opportunity to get their sea-legs. BTW - I've never been to Chanterelle. Have been to Le Cirque 2000. What's wrong with Le Cirque 2000? Robyn

Le B apparently isn't the only restaurant with this problem. I recalled this article from the Wall Street Journal: Fast Food Meets Pricey Spots As Restaurants End Lingering June 21, 2002, The Wall Street Journal, 2117 words Janet Kleinman recently spent $400 at New York restaurant Cello, feasting on lobster and foie-gras risotto -- and left with a sour taste in her mouth. The waiters, she says, hustled her family out in ... PURCHASE THE FULL ARTICLE FOR ONLY $2.95* I ate at one of the restaurants mentioned in the article - not Cello (before I read the article). The restaurant clearly didn't want us to take more than 5 minutes to order - and it delivered our main course before we had finished our appetizer! Needless to say - I won't be returning to that restaurant. Robyn

that is about how far we can make it since this is primarily a birding vacation and both these sites put us in good striking distance of hot spots for specific birds to add to john's life list. eating is a secondary pursuit - to him. thanks for all the suggestions, though. what do you know of someplace called fiddler's green. one of the engineers john works with suggested it - though i like the sound of the matanzas inlet restaurant or a1a aleworks. I'm not sure what your daily time requirements are in terms of looking at birds (i.e., when you have to be up and out looking for birds) - but you might consider staying in Dadeland instead of Homestead. It's a suburb south of downtown Miami - there's a Marriott there - and I'm sure there are other places as well. Big mall - lots of places of to eat. It's about 25 minutes from Homestead. You won't find much in Homestead except a lot of rednecks in trailers and migrant labor workers. The northernmost keys are closer to Homestead - they're very nice - but I'm sure the places there are a lot pricier in season than the Marriott (which is basically a business hotel). On the map - Copeland looks like it's about 15 minutes outside of Naples - and I'd shoot for Naples. We've been to Fiddler's Green (it was recommended to us too) - but have never eaten there. Walked out. It's very popular - doesn't take reservations - and is the kind of place where you have to wait forever before eating. I don't like those kind of places. Your mileage may vary. I'm not sure you mentioned when you'd be down here. What are your dates? Note that this is a very busy time of year in Florida - and - with things like hotels/motels - you can't always expect to pop in and find vacancies. E.g., we have the Players' Championship (golf tournament) in the Jacksonville area in late March - and the entire 3 county area is pretty much sold out for that event. I am a very amateur bird person (up to 30 species in my backyard and still counting). I don't know if it's a good birding place for what your husband is trying to find - but Flamingo in Everglades National Park is the kind of place you won't run across anywhere else in the US. It's primitive - but it's the essence of the Everglades. If you do cross Florida on Alligator Alley (that's the road to Copeland) - leave some time to stop at Shark Valley for a few hours (there's a tram - but it's better renting a bike to do the loop). What birds is your husband trying to sight? Robyn

My husband is older than I am (flirting with 60). Asked him tonight. He doesn't recall ever going to a restaurant before his father took him out for his high school graduation. His family wasn't poor mind you. Kind of middle class in Bergen County NJ. His father was in sales and took customers out to restaurants and country clubs - they ate steaks and played golf. But children weren't part of the restaurant eating experience - and women (like my husband's mother) weren't either. Mom and the kids stayed home. I suspect my husband's experiences aren't atypical for most people his age in the US. Robyn

<<husband - the engineer - set up the itinerary based on how far he wants to drive per day.>> I have lived in Florida for over 30 years - both north and south - and cannot recommend staying in Copeland or Homestead. Not to put too fine a point on it - Homestead is kind of a dump. Why stay in Homestead when you're close to much nicer places in/near Miami - or in the Keys? Ditto with Copeland in terms of places on the west coast (is there anything in Copeland other than a gas station - I'd never heard of it before you mentioned it and looked it up on a map?) . On the other hand - St. Augustine is fine. Robyn

I am confused. So people go to Dinner Houses as opposed to what? Robyn

You're just being rational. If you can eat in a restaurant that's ok and costs X - or a restaurant that's somewhat better (usually with much zippier decor) that costs 3X - or a wonderful restaurant - top of the line - that costs 5X - what are you going to do? Spend most of your time in the X or 5X restaurants - or eat at home (unless you're on the road). My husband and I are quite a bit older than you and and your wife - but we don't eat at the 3X places anymore - unless they're the only game in town. It's either a (hopefully) good little deal place - or a great place. Why on earth would I go to a city like New York or Chicago or London or LA and eat at a second tier place instead of interesting local places - or world class places? I really can't help but notice how many 20 and 30 somethings eat in those 3X places. But you seem precocious . Robyn

You mean the same old boring winner ? I never tire of a great dish. I'm probably not unique in that I've never thrown away a recipe I really like and cook well. Might only prepare it once or twice a year - but I won't throw it away because it's not trendy anymore. Why do some people think we have to throw away restaurants (not that I was particularly impressed with this one - I'm just talking in general)? Robyn

Guess I will have to be careful about divulging my favorite local "cheap eats" . On the other hand - after so many years in the southeast - I am really sick of fried fish places . I will trade NY one ADNY for 10 - make that 20 - fried fish places . Robyn

I'm very familiar with "fish camps" (we have lots of them - some are great - some stink - others are in between). Who is Holly Moore (she's never ruined any of my fried shrimp dinners )? Robyn

Guess one size doesn't fit all. I'm not from NYC - and I really disliked the meal we had at JG a few years ago (not to mention that the $100+ bottle of wine that was recommended was lousy). But I really loved the room. That's not a sufficient reason to go back though (after all - it's a restaurant - not an architectural tour). Robyn

Where do you live? I have a Weber with a porcelain exterior. If I had something like cast iron - it would rust out in about 12 months (I live in the south less than a mile from the ocean). Robyn