robyn

One other thing reading this thread. As a white person of a certain background - I think it is incredibly presumptuous to think that what certain white people (and far from all of them) like in the way of a fine dining experience is what other kinds of people like too. And when it comes to so-called "fine dining" - even all white people of a certain background aren't in agreement. I liked Chez Panisse better than Per Se. So shoot me. So the entire premise that there are a fair number of African-Americans who aspire to be chefs in high end restaurants that have nothing to do with their backgrounds - or personal likes/dislikes might be false. After all - how many nice Jewish boys aspire to be chefs in fancy French restaurants? I have actually been to a high end (expensive) African-American owned/operated restaurant which specialized in dishes that were thought to be of interest to high end African-American diners. African-Americans in the kitchen - and as servers. I don't think it was the best food in the world - but it was a beautiful restaurant - smack dab in the middle of Beverly Hills - and even if the food wasn't the greatest in my opinion (being from the south - I am critical when it comes to southern food) - it was a fun meal - and I have never seen so many African-American celebrities in one place at one time. Have no idea whether this restaurant still exists (I was there in 2000 - and places in Beverly Hills come and go with some regularity). Anyway - this is the restaurant: Reign Restaurant 180 North Robertson Boulevard, Beverly Hills, CA 90211, 310-358-0400, Transforming Southern and soul food, based on the family recipes of Tampa Bay Buccaneers wide receiver, KeShawn Johnson, this down home restaurant features this traditional comfort food in an upscale, contemporary atmosphere. Robyn

JohnL - With regard to your statement "I would be comfortable with the notion that the restaurant industry is not racist" - the one area where I think this is definitely not true is when you're talking about servers at high end restaurants (those are frequently higher paying jobs than any kitchen jobs). That part of the restaurant world tends to be very sexist as well. It is very rare to find African-American or female servers at these restaurants - and - when I do run across the occasional African-American server - odds are it's a gay guy (I can recall only 2 female African-American servers in high end restaurants in years and years - and both restaurants were in the San Francisco Bay Area). Robyn

It wasn't a lot different before the storm. Austin Leslie, who died shortly after Katrina, was at Pampy's and cooking in the Creole Soul tradition. He hoped to train a new generation of black chefs at his restaurant. Leah Chase ran Dookie Chase (and soon will again). There are probably a few more that I'm not thinking of. There are certainly many black-run neighborhood restaurants, although fewer since the storm. I don't have an answer to why there are few African-American chefs in the U.S. or New Orleans. In New Orleans, there aren't a whole lot of attractive economic opportunities luring away young talent. ← Most of you are from elsewhere - but after living in this neck of the woods (southeast) for a reasonably long time - I can tell you that the best city in the US for an African-American who wants to do just about anything - related to cooking or not - is Atlanta. It has a large African-American population - and - unlike New Orleans - the population isn't dirt poor. I realize that the city isn't trendy in terms of "foodies" - but - if I were African-American - that's where I'd want to live and work. Robyn P.S. You want to see African-American culture - food - and money - and a lot of cultural crossover - come on down to see the Honda Battle of the Bands in the Georgia Dome in January. I'm really looking forward to it (and keeping my fingers crossed that there isn't an ice storm that weekend).

I dined at Aquavit in Minneapolis before it closed - and I think the simple fact of the matter is that during the relatively short period of nice weather up there - it simply couldn't compete with nearby places where people could dine outside (we were there in late May - and every place that had a patio was slammed - and every place that didn't was empty). Moreover - the market for higher end dining downtown (where it was located) didn't seem particularly strong during our visit (and another high end restaurant a few blocks away which had been around a lot longer closed shortly after Aquavit). Robyn P.S. One reason the dining in Rochester is horrible is because of the hideous smoking laws. We ran into one young working person after another - the kind of people who might keep an ethnic/lower end dining scene vibrant - and they said they'd rather stay home - order takeout - and watch football games on TV - and smoke - than pay money to eat out. Minneapolis isn't like Florida (which has similar smoking laws) - where people who want a cigarette can duck outside for a smoke (unless you really want to "suffer for your art" - cripes is it cold there a lot of the time). FWIW - if you go to bars in Rochester (we went to a couple there) - or Florida - where - basically - you can drink and smoke - but no food is served - most that I've seen are doing a pretty good business. In fact - we have something new here in Florida - bars where you can BYOF (bring your own food). Kind of turns the old convention on its head. Anyway I think this has nothing to do with race - religion - sex - or anything similar. It has everything to do with how people care to spend their leisure dollars when they don't have a lot of them. Robyn

Samuelsson goes on to suggest that blacks educate themselves about the world of food and its importance and expand their culinary horizons. "A Black restaurant should not only serve soul food," he writes. "And in order to do foods that come from other places, we have to expose ourselves." He then goes on to suggest ways to do so. Unfortunately, you can't read the article online. Ebony only posts teasers from its stories on its Web site and urges visitors to go pick up the current issue to read the whole article. I'd urge you to do the same. In the meantime, maybe we can talk about some of the subjects Samuelsson touches on. Could we imagine an American TV show with a lead character like that of the BBC sitcom "Chef!"? Must we rely on other British imports (coughAinsley Harriottcough) to provide black culinary role models (did I just write "Ainsley Harriott" and "role model" in the same sentence)? Are our outstanding black chefs worthy of no more than supporting roles on Iron Chef America and shows on regional cable networks? (So who's ready to sign Samuelsson for a show of his own?) Your thoughts? (Edited to more accurately describe the nature of the content on Ebony's Web site. The page linked above contains the first two pargraphs of Samuelsson's article, "Celebrating Black Culinarians.") ← I think you may be confusing chefs in real restaurants with "TV personalities". I see some African Americans in some kitchens in some of my local dining places (they're places with open kitchens - so I can see who's doing what - and they definitely don't serve "soul food"). They're pretty high in the pecking order based on what I see them doing. I see African American servers in some pretty high end restaurants here too (try to find that in NYC). Perhaps it's because we have a large African American community here - they're reasonably hard-working - like most of the people in our community - and we have a tight labor market. If someone can do a job - he's welcome to it. I see pretty much the same thing in Atlanta (which is the largest city close to me). *My* major objection is the only place I see women is at the pastry chef stations! As for "TV personality chefs" - who knows. Food Network and the like are trying to attract eyeballs - that's it. Particularly 25-45 year old white male eyeballs (which seem more valuable than 55-65 year old white female eyeballs - even though we - the latter - generally have a lot more disposable income than the former). Which means that their current shows don't do a thing for me (except get me to pay my cable company more to get extra channels to watch). Robyn

We had an absolutely spectacular uni/pasta dish at the Four Seasons Marunouchi in Tokyo earlier this year (the restaurant in general was good - but this dish was amazing). Perhaps it is something about the uni in Japan - or the pasta - or perhaps it was just the chef's secret recipe. Don't know. If you have some time on your hands - perhaps you could try to contact the chef there - tell him a hotel guest loved the dish - etc. - and find out how he did it. It might take you a while to find the right email address - try finding the email for the concierge desk (which I have deleted) through the hotel chain reservations phone number - and work from there. As I recall - perhaps incorrectly - the chef was European and spoke English. Good luck. Robyn P.S. Here's the chef and his dish (pasta in uni cream sauce). He's from Craft in NYC - didn't know that.

I agree with Skye. I know people are fighting the "foie gras" wars - but whatever the merits of that fight - foie gras is boring. Chefs right here in Jacksonville Florida get their foie gras from the same place most major US chefs get theirs from (as do I when I order on the internet) - and they know how to cook it too. And you can get the best 5 course tasting menu in town here - which is pretty darn good - for $55. So for $165 - or $250 - or $350 - I want a little more creativity. I want something like that first whole sea urchin with quail egg I had at Jamin (which was - curiously the last whole sea urchin I had until more than 20 years later at David, Burke & Donatella). At those price levels - you're looking for more than culinary cliches (as well as excellent executions and presentations). Robyn

Food is an entirely different issue price-wise than liquor. I can make a beefeater martini at home (or in my hotel room for that matter). I can't cook world class food in either. Although I am very reluctant to spoil my probably overblown memories of eating at Jamin (I was a lot younger - it was maybe 25 years ago - and less jaded) - I will probably wind up in New York or Las Vegas one of these days - and want to try one of the Robuchon restaurants (didn't do it in Tokyo because that was basically a Japanese-food-only trip). Have any of you tried more than one of these places - and - if so - what did you think? I assume if you have to choose one - it would be the Mansion in Las Vegas. Robyn

Oh yes - I'm used to $12 in New York and similar large cities in the US - maybe $14 in Tokyo or London - think the martinis in the Four Seasons in Tokyo were about $14 - and even $8-10 here in nicer bars in the Jacksonville area - but I've never seen $20 before for basically a well gin (like Beefeater) martini. Not that there is anything wrong with Beefeater (it's my usual - although I like Plymouth too when it's available). But - when a whole 1.75 liter bottle of Beefeater at Total Wine here costs $25 and change... Note that when my husband and I travel - it is not unusual for us to each have 1-2 martinis at the end of the day at our hotel.* So those bar tabs can start to add up. The wine markups are bothersome too. 250-300% is about our absolute limit before we think we're being ripped off. It's one thing to pay $25 for $10 wine - quite another to pay $60 or more. Robyn * - Good martini joke. Why are martinis like breasts? Because one isn't enough - and three are too many. Another good martini ditty - courtesy of Dorothy Parker -I like to have a martini, two at the very most. After three I'm under the table, after four I'm under my host.

A $20 martini - really? That seems excessive - even by big city standards these days. Vodka - gin - what brand? Robyn P.S. We were in the Four Seasons in Palo Alto last month - and a reasonable martini with the sides (nuts and the like) was about $8-10. Good pour too.

This all sounds wonderful - like a campaign speech. Tell me how to raise citrus so it's not a monoculture crop (that's one crop I happen to know a lot about since there's so much of it in the state). It's not anything like raising lettuce - or tomatoes. The acreage - the trees - and the equipment needed to manage a grove properly (including all that plumbing that might be used a couple of times a year - or maybe every other year - if there's a hard freeze) - is expensive. Is it profitable if done correctly - sure. That's why the name of one of Florida's largest citrus growers is on the University of Florida football stadium. As for avian flu - perhaps I am remembering wrong - but didn't it start - and haven't the biggest outbreaks - been in parts of Asia where birds *are* in the backyard - or in close proximity to people? Certainly didn't start in a turkey farm in North Carolina. And no - I really don't remember a tomato that tasted fabulous (except for some I had in California last month - grown maybe 10 miles away from the restaurant - California is very blessed in terms of its climate when it comes to produce - a blessing that few places in the US share). I've lived in Florida for a really long time - and north Florida for a long time. It is simply a lousy place to raise tomatoes (I know - I've tried). And lots of other produce for that matter. So I have to live with tomatoes that can travel long distances to get from where they're raised - to me - or do without. Even the Florida "Ugly Ripes" which have been touted here in the past - were simply ugly this year. The ones that have been best here this year are a variety of plum tomato that I buy in Costco - grown in greenhouses in Canada. By the way - the grazing cattle that are sent away to feedlots aren't quite on my doorstep (land here is more than a bit too expensive) - but if I drive an hour - I'll see thousands of those cows. Don't know if they were ever finished and slaughtered here in Florida - but it certainly hasn't been a normal thing since I moved here 35 years ago. I've never met one of these "beef farmers" - but I have met contract chicken people in upstate New York. To suggest that they are somehow inferior in terms of health and safety is - in my opinion - just plain wrong. If they were inferior - they wouldn't have their contracts for too long. Is their chicken the best in the world - no. But they manage to get a lot of decent product to a lot of people at low prices. I just bought a package of chicken breasts at Costco - 6 packs of 2 chicken breasts - each individually sealed - for $14. Would you rather that the US be like Norway - which isn't a particularly good place to raise chickens - and where a single chicken breast might cost $4? That's a good way to make sure that people of middle or lesser means - families with 3 kids - wind up eating nothing but cheap junk food burgers and fries and pizza. So yes - you do sound snobbish and precious. My husband and I are a family of 2 with lots of money. We spend perhaps $800/month on groceries (not all of it is those cheap chicken breasts at Costco - and we eat out a lot). Can't imagine what it would be like to try to feed a family of 5 on that budget - but I suspect the average family has to do that - or better - in terms of budget. And people with less money have to be even more frugal. I think the US does a fabulous job of producing decent quality food at prices that people in other parts of the world would die for. Why would you want to limit the choices of average people? And what do you suggest that I do? That I simply eat stuff that's grown within 100 miles of where I live? I've said it before - that basically puts me on a Russian peasant diet (cabbage and potatoes). I think I will give up a fair amount in terms of perfection to get a more varied diet. I will note that you are really talking apples and oranges when you try to compare some weekend farmer who raises a couple of tomatoes or heads of lettuce to sell at the local farmer's market with the people who raise more labor/capital intensive things like cattle - citrus - chickens - or houseplants for that matter (Florida is a huge producer of houseplants). Even Niman Ranch is national now. Its bacon is in Publix and I've seen some of its products in Costco. I have nothing against boutique - but it won't work to feed most of the people most of the time at reasonable prices. Finally - have you ever tried to raise food yourself? You mentioned that you don't have a garden anymore. Why not? I do raise some stuff. Not an awful lot - because not an awful lot will grow where I live. I defy you to raise any citrus without using tons of fertilizer (only thing that I grow is Meyer lemons - because they grow here and are not generally available in stores - my 4 foot tree needs 2 cups of fertilizer every month from March through November). I defy you to keep bugs off crops here without using pesticides (and since I don't use pesticides - too much work - I generally raise more bugs and butterflies than anything else - although I do try to process the basil into pesto before the huge bug assault of late summer - right now - all the herbs that are left are simply caterpillar food). As for tomatoes - sheesh - the one time I tried those - the day the first tomato was ripe - the birds got to them. They had to peck a hole in every tomato to make sure they all tasted the same (birds don't like tomatoes). Anyway - when you actually try to grow stuff - it is a very humbling experience - and gives you a great appreciation of those people who put food on your table at prices that don't bust your budget. Robyn

Well - if they are silly - why does a magazine like Gourmet Magazine - which I thought was almost on the verge of trying to be a serious magazine - do them? Seems to me that they sell enough ads without them. Shame on Ruth Reichl. Robyn

P.S. I've counted again - and I've actually been to more of the restaurants. But I don't think they should count. Locke-Ober's 25 years ago. Think not. Ritz Carlton at Buckhead 2 years ago when Bruno Menard (now at L'Osier in Tokyo) - was in the kitchen. Don't think so either. Or maybe it does. How many times do TPTB at Gourmet make it to Atlanta? Chefs make a huge difference - and chefs don't tend to stay in one place for 10 years these days. Heck - even at York Street - the maitre d' who made our meal (got us over all the little service issues) isn't there anymore (his mom wrote me email and said he opened his own restaurant).

I've eaten at 8 out of 50 - and more if you include chefs who were someplace else 2 years ago (but who have new places now that I haven't been to yet). It is simply a very PC list. One of these - them and those. An avant garde place here - a more traditional place there. No food point of view at all. In a variety of geographical regions - with the inevitable scramble to come up with a few women - and other minorities. Although I don't live in New York - or have any particular love for it - I can tell you that this list reminds me of how Ivy League schools used to (maybe still do) admit lesser kids from Kansas and Idaho instead of more qualified kids from the Bronx High School of Science in the name of "geographical diversity". The Ivy League schools didn't want too many Jewish kids - and this list doesn't want too many fancy pants New York restaurants. I mean - I liked York Street - but it was about 2 steps beneath David Burke & Donatella (which is certainly not the highest of higher end restaurants in New York) in terms of everything. And - I am curious - considering the lead time in the magazine business - how did Guy Savoy - which opened in May - wind up on the list? Ditto with Michy's - which opened in January. Think the fix was in? Let this all be a warning signal to those of you who worship at the alter of diversity - in any arena - without considering its impact on quality. Robyn P.S. For those of you who mentioned Spago in a negative way - agreed. Although I've heard that the food you get there depends on whether you're known to the restaurant (which shouldn't be the case in any supposedly great restaurant IMO).

A luxury hotel in Stockholm is The Grand Hotel. It is a beautiful hotel, but I would stay at Hotel Rival. I would recommend the Hotel Kamp or the Palace Hotel in Helsinki. ← Thanks for the information. And no reason I can't do trips to Germany - and Finland and Sweden too. Just depends on the order. Must say though I am spoiled after our trip to Japan. Tokyo is kind of a hard act to follow. Robyn

Just curious, but which kosher butchering practices would you consider inhumane? Kosher (and Halal) slaughter involves a quick, deep slash across the throat of the animal to sever the arteries, thus killing the animal (and draining out blood). The knife used must be razor sharp to minimize pain. Typically the animal is unconscious within 2 seconds using this method apparently... On the other hand, the most widely used method of slaughter is to stun the animal first with an electric shock, and then kill it. Seems like adding the extra step would actually cause more pain to the animal, prolonging its demise, as opposed to a quick slash to the neck without any prior trauma... I'm not Jewish (or Muslim), and not defending the method based on religion, it just seems to be a better way for the animal to go... ← I don't think it's particularly swell to slit an animal's throat when it's wide awake. On the other hand - dead is dead - which is how all these animals wind up. Robyn

We here in Florida had very little pork production before the constitutional amendment - mostly because we weren't a low cost state. Read this for example. We do however have a state constitution which is much too easy to amend. We're going to vote on whether to tighten the rules this November. Here's the story. I don't know why everyone simply assumes that small = good and large = bad. There is so little food production close to where I live that I won't even get into the local = good and far-away = bad discussion. Say you're raising beef cattle - why is small = good - and large = bad? I can tell you that Florida is a big beef state - but the animals usually only live here (and graze) for part of their lives. What about citrus - another huge agricultural concern here? Why would a small citrus grove be better than a large one? Robyn

Just curious, but which kosher butchering practices would you consider inhumane? Kosher (and Halal) slaughter involves a quick, deep slash across the throat of the animal to sever the arteries, thus killing the animal (and draining out blood). The knife used must be razor sharp to minimize pain. Typically the animal is unconscious within 2 seconds using this method apparently... On the other hand, the most widely used method of slaughter is to stun the animal first with an electric shock, and then kill it. Seems like adding the extra step would actually cause more pain to the animal, prolonging its demise, as opposed to a quick slash to the neck without any prior trauma... I'm not Jewish (or Muslim), and not defending the method based on religion, it just seems to be a better way for the animal to go... ← The problem for HSUS and PETA and their allies is not really animal cruelty, despite the fact that they have coopted the term 'animal welfare', the problem for them is any human use of animals period - for meat, milk, eggs, butter, leather, wool, fur, companionship, service ... you get the picture. They are perfectly happy to pretend to be interested in animal welfare to progressively redefine the term 'cruelty' and 'abuse' to mean 'raising animals for human use', including meat and even for pets. They are whittling away at our rights not only to raise animals for meat, but to raise animals period, and one of their stategies is to pit one group of animal users against another, using each group's ignorance of another to misrepresent whatever practise they are currently targeting. There are so few people any more who know anything about animal husbandry that they can tell any lies they care to about hunting practises, raising ducks for foie gras, livetock management, dog and cat breeding practises, or any other group you care to mention. If they can put show dog raisers out of business by wringing their hands about puppy mills, they'll do that - individuals are much more vulnerable than corporations. They are working on small farmers, hobby and niche producers the same way. They put pork raisers in Florida out of business by successfully granting constitutional rights to sows. http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article....RTICLE_ID=29542 I'm sorry to say this is not a joke. Worse, the feds are pimping agribiz interests, and if the NAIS program goes through, you will see a huge reduction in the availability of locally produced meat, poultry, eggs, game ... organic and range fed meat and poultry and eggs will go away ... Too long to go into here in any detail, but see http://www.nonais.org for info, links to the USDA, your reps, and everything else you'd rather not know about this misconceived program. Apart from this, though, don't blow off the AR zealots; they have money and power, and because their goals are ludicrous doesn't mean we won't get stuck with them if we don't recognize the seriousness of their agenda and fight them actively. HSUS has pages which show which legislation they support and oppose, both federal and state - but they write much of the current animal law, right down to local ordinance level, and are finding that buying politicians and legislation is much more effective than funding animal terrorism. Enough ... if you want to discuss this aspect of your diet and cooking habits, I'm at the.limit@comcast.net Lynn ← Agreed. And the only joke about our pig constitutional amendment (I live in Florida) is that we have/had almost no pork production here. I don't care how you look at it - but when the primary goal of the producer is to raise and kill animals - someone is going to be offended by something. I for one eat animals - and apart from gross acts of cruelty (which one is unlikely to see for the most part) - I don't see any problems with the food production process. Robyn

Perdue? Tyson? You might want to read "Fast Food Nation", and then you wouldn't have to ask that question. One of the few ways to stop this nonsense over how the ducks are treated would be to compare them to how the above mentioned companies raise their chickens, honestly. ← Perdue? Tyson? You mean anything that's a big company? I've seen chickens raised in upstate New York for smaller companies (from hatchlings to egg producers) - and it wasn't exactly a scene out of Old McDonald's farm. Have you or anyone else here ever seen chickens raised? What do you think is the ideal way to raise them? Like Martha Stewart raises hers? Robyn

_________________________ CRISCO Nutrition Facts Serving Size 1 Tablespoon Calories 110 Calories from Fat 110 Amount Per Serving Total Fat 12g Saturated Fat 3g Trans Fat 0g Polyunsaturated Fat 6g Monounsaturated Fat3g Cholesterol 0mg Sodium 0mg Total Carbohydrate 0g Protein 0g Ingredients SOYBEAN OIL, SUNFLOWER OIL, FULLY HYDROGENATED PALM OIL, MONO- AND DIGLYCERIDES, TBHQ AND CITRIC ACID (ANTIOXIDANTS). I think that's the "new" Crisco (without transfats) - the company that makes Crisco is still making the "old original" (with transfats) too. I thought that too, but their site lists only this Crisco. Still, what I meant by posting that is that whether or not they've removed the trans fats, there's still a lot of saturated fat, and of course the answer is that you have to read the nutritional labels; then you can make an informed decision based on your own dietary needs. The key word being "choice", the very thing that Panter wants to take away from us. ← Here are the different Crisco formulations. Robyn

My impression - having been to your neck of the woods twice in the last year - is that you need a new restaurant review person. Someone who doesn't think of him or herself as the center of the restaurant world. Someone younger. I am close to 60 - and although I like to think I am still "au courant" - I know that I was more on my game when I was 30-40 (especially in terms of being able to eat/drink to wretched excess without miserable side effects ). I read the recent article about mistakes - and I don't know when Roland Passot's wife works at La Folie - but she personally took my reservation for La Folie (I know - because we talked at length - like 30 minutes - about family when I was making my reservation). The whole article was a case of "the lady doth protest too much". FWIW - I thought all of our dinners - including those at places like Quince and La Folie - were priced quite reasonably. And lunch at Chez Panisse was a bargain. What are the big ticket places? Robyn

What is "the industrial food production machine"? I don't have many farms close to where I live - and the ones that are here mostly raise cabbage and potatoes. Should I buy a lot of "How to Cook 19th Century Peasant Russian Food" cookbooks ? I can't even defend supposedly humane animal slaughter practices - because I'm Jewish - and some of my friends are kosher. And kosher butchering practices leave something to be desired when it comes to "humane". So I guess I'm not PC when it comes to food. BTW - where do you get bison that comes from "close to home". Most of what's sold here in restaurants and food stores comes from Ted Turner's acreage out west (and it's reasonably good stuff)? Robyn

But some German wouldn't hurt - yes? My husband likes to study languages . Robyn

I'm not locked into Berlin. It's just kind of been sticking in my brain because of the relatively new Jewish Museum - the first new rabbis in Germany since WWII - some articles I've read about exciting contemporary architecture there (I am a big fan of contemporary art and architecture) - and it has a luxury hotel (Ritz Carlton). I like staying in luxury hotels - and the one in Berlin is relatively inexpensive. I am interested in seeing what is happening with Judaism in continental Europe these days (that's where my family came from) - also what is happening with the growing Muslim population - and how the majority Christian population is dealing with things (read an article in the NYT this week about a part of non-Paris France that didn't sound so encouraging). And specifically with regard to Germany - I think Berlin is a good place to see how the integration of western and eastern Germany is going (not so great from everything I've read over the years - but I'd like to poke around a bit and see for myself). And Germany seems like its food scene is kind of developing. I think if I go now - I will probably be too early in terms of any big "food revolution" (I was certainly at least 5 years too early when I explored Spain - and I'm probably 10 years too late now - Spain has certainly been discovered) - but at least if you're early - you know that maybe you can eat at places that haven't been covered ad nauseam in every major English food periodical in the world yet. I can't remember the exact food I ate last trip at that fancy restaurant. I tend to think from what the woman sitting next to us said that it was food that even Germans eat only at Christmas every 5 years . Last time we were in Germany - we drove on the autobahn. Even then - when we were a lot younger - it was frightening for us US people who are used to speed limits. I'm not sure we could handle it now (unless they have rental cars with GPS systems that speak English!). We had such terrific experiences with trains in Japan that if we go to Germany - we'd probably go to 2 or 3 cities that are connected by train. So I would be open to suggestions. By the way - the one common theme in terms of our travel is we're not interested in seeing what used to be - e.g., quaint towns that don't represent contemporary reality for most people who live in a country. We won't pass up a major historical site if it's where we happen to be - but I'd rather see "what is today". When you call Berlin "a concrete jungle" - sounds like the way a lot of people talk about Tokyo - but I really loved Tokyo - Osaka too - because they're the essence of contemporary Japan. Our travel time would probably be spring - or - more likely- fall (like to avoid summer because Europe is generally crowded then and it's prime hurricane season here and I like to stick close to home - and I avoid winter in the north because it's too darn cold for a Florida girl!). Other places I'm considering for a trip next year are Finland and Sweden - but Helsinki and Stockholm don't seem to have anything in the way of luxury hotels. Perhaps that's because they're relatively small cities (even smaller than the city where I live). I tend to like really big cities (probably because I don't live in one). Places where I can poke around and explore. Robyn

_________________________ CRISCO Nutrition Facts Serving Size 1 Tablespoon Calories 110 Calories from Fat 110 Amount Per Serving Total Fat 12g Saturated Fat 3g Trans Fat 0g Polyunsaturated Fat 6g Monounsaturated Fat3g Cholesterol 0mg Sodium 0mg Total Carbohydrate 0g Protein 0g Ingredients SOYBEAN OIL, SUNFLOWER OIL, FULLY HYDROGENATED PALM OIL, MONO- AND DIGLYCERIDES, TBHQ AND CITRIC ACID (ANTIOXIDANTS). ______________________ source: http://www.crisco.com/about/prod_info.asp?...63&FlavorId=344 ← I think that's the "new" Crisco (without transfats) - the company that makes Crisco is still making the "old original" (with transfats) too. Also - with regard to Edsel's post - from my point of view - the production of animals for human consumption (which always involves killing them) varies. But I don't care whether the animals are force-fed - or live in cages - or are treated like Roman emperors. In the long run - we're just going to kill them and eat them. Would it matter to any of you if the murderer in the Silence of the Lambs had kept his next victim in the Ritz Carlton instead of in a hole in the ground? I eat meat - and fowl - and I think once you get on the slope that it's ok to eat some animals because we raise them this - that - or the other way - but not ok to eat them if they're raised another way - that slope is very slippery. Robyn