Tonyfinch

Well it's a rustic cuisine for sure but i don't agree there's NO real cuisine. Lonely Planet pointed me to a restaurant behind the football stadium in Gythio which it enthused about as being one of the best in the Peloponnese. There was the proverbial old grandmamma in a rundown caff surrounded by bubbling pans which contained artichokes braised in wine with oregano, chicken with potatoes and herb stuffed cannelloni, blackeye bean and spinach with thyme, and the most amazing brandade of salt cod I've ever eaten-it was like silk-one of those moments when you really understand what a dish is all about. OK, that place was a bit of a one off but it showed it CAN be done. Why there aren't places like that all over Greece I don't know, but there must be other excellent cooks like her even if they don't run restaurants. They could open up over here and maybe do very well.

Wilfred, I believe that one of the reasons we have chefs and cooks on TV becoming superstars these days and why cookery books sell in their millions in the UK is precisely because people's culinary horizons have been opened up by foriegn travel. True there will always be the brigade who want bacon butties and chips, but people of all classes are more food aware than they've ever been. The versions of Greek and Turkish cuisines that have been imported to the UK reflect the market from a different time. And,certainly in the case of Greek cuisine, it is now moribund and stuck in that timewarp whereas the market has moved on. Turkish cuisine has adapted more with new open grill restaurants opening up and a slightly wider range of specialities on offer. But Greek cuisine is dead in London (The Real Greek apart) as anything more than a sop for wine, and it will have to adopt to a new set of demands or it will all but disappear. And I think that's because of tourism broadening the culinary mind.

Wilfred, you may well be right in the case of Vietnamese, but with Thai I genuinely believe that people have gone there as tourists, loved the food and created a demand for it back in London and in Australia. And its a reasonable reflection of the cuisine you can get in Thailand.

Well I've given you one-Thai. And now we're seeing Vietnamese (in London, I mean). Steve I'm not even going to dignify your point about Thai and Indian cuisines with an argument. Besides which this is a thread about Greek and Turkish cuisines.

Well what's interesting is that with the explosion of long haul mass tourism to places like Thailand, by and large you don't see restaurants there which cater specifically for tourists serving completely different food . And by and large the Thai restaurants in London are a reasonable reflection of Thai cuisine as you get it in Thailand. Doubtless some of the more "exotic" ingredients eaten in Thai homes and that you can see in markets would mean crossing a few food hang ups for Westerners. But that's not the same as having two parallel cuisines,one of which is reserved for tourists. Maybe the middle class tourists who paved the way sought out "real" food and convinced the tourist industry that "farangs" would indeed eat this food and so the following masses were not offered a choice. But maybe everybody IS just more food aware and adventurous than they were when mass tourism to Spain,Greece and Turkey first took off. Maybe those Chinese restaurants should start offering those specials in English and see what happens. Can't see that they've much to lose.

One of the curious aspects of some tourist countries is that they become convincedthat the tourists don't WANT to eat "good quality food". By that I mean top quality local food. Doubtless this has been brought about by tourist's ignorant demands, as we've discussed on the Spain thread. But also there is a strong assumption that if you do give people the "real" stuff they just won't like it. Thie attitude still pertains in Chinese restaurants in London, where often the "specials" are not translated into Enflish because its just assumed that Westerners won't want them. I remember once having to argue in a restautant just outside of Kas that I really did want the "meat" (God knows what it was), paprika, tomato and herb casserole that the locals were eating rather than another bony, dried up grilled fish. Doubtless this is partly to do with charging top money to tourists for "tourist" food, but it also reflects a misunderstanding of the culinary curiosity of an increasing number of tourists. So, I reckon your mate is dead right. A restaurant serving "good" food in a tourist centre in Turkey could do brilliantly.

A related variation on this topic could be -how do you tell people you know that their recommendations are useless? I get really hacked off these days when friends who know damn well that I know loads more about restaurants than them insist on "their turn" to choose the restaurant and then insist on dragging us all along to a bog standard, overpriced, useless dump when all the while I know at least five places in the vicinity with far better food and which is far better value for money. If I know someone who knows loads more about cars or computers or whatever than I do then I don't hesitate to ask advice and accord it weight and respect. Yet everybody eats so everybody thinks they're an expert on restaurants.I've got to the point where I'm going to have to insist that because I know better than them then we're going to have to eat where I say. If they don't like it, or won't accept it then maybe the eating out together part of our friendship has got to go. Life really is too short to eat in restaurants you know are going to be crap before you even step inside them

But you don't just recommend in a vacuum do you? You ask them what kind of restaurant they're looking for, how much they want to spend, what sort of ambience they're after. Then you can give them a range of options within those criteria and tell them what you liked and disliked about the restaurants. For instance if I was to recommend New Tayyab, my favourite Pakistani restaurant in London, I'd say "the food is fabulously authentic, its highly spiced ,the meats dahls and breads are fantastic, it's dirt cheap but don't bother with the seafood dishes and beware it gets jam-packed after 7 pm and can be very noisy and frantic" So you give them info. which draws attention to the fact that good and bad can co-exist in a restaurant, and then they make their decision. If they then come back and say "the food was inauthentic, the spicing poor, the meat lousy" then you know something is wrong with THEM. They have no idea what they're talking about and are not recommendees to be bothered with. If they come back and say "the food was great but it was very hot and noisy"-well yes, you told them that didn't you. Your recommendation still stands as valid.

Actually the food at Lemonia and its nearby sister Limani is very ordinary. It's a good example of how good ambience can overcome the limitations of the cuisine. The denizens of Chalk Farm/Primrose Hill wanted a local Greek to recreate their Greek island holidays and, being a wealthier group, enjoyed a slightly more upmarket atmosphere than was available in the more basic tavernas of Camden Town and Charlotte St. Nothing wrong with that of course, and I enjoyed several meals there myself, but the fact is that the food itself is as basic and as ordinary as every other Greek Taverna type restaurant around town.

Please. Feel free.

A tip would be nice.

Sandra,I'm in the vicinity too so please report back on any visits you make.

Good work, Mr B.

Well its unfortunate of course if an expensive restaurant you recommend turns out to have delivered a duff meal, but if it does it is surely more the restaurant's fault than yours if you have already pre -agreed on the type and price of restaurant required and everyone agrees that you're knowledgeable in the field (why would they ask you otherwise?). There's something wrong with the people you're recommending to if they can't see that. And maybe that's the point. It's not where you recommend or how you recommend it, but who you're recommending it to. We all know people who find fault in every restaurant they go to. It's a mission with them. To them only recommend "safe bets" so that their opinion can be demonstrated to be a foolish one if there's comeback. To those who don't like spicy foods you don't recommend that deeply authentic, highly spiced food at the local Pakistani joint, even if they ask you to recommend "an Indian" In other words the key to this little problem is "Know Thy Recommendee".

The dishes of aristocratic Turkey the Wilfred describes has a lot more in common with other Muslim Royal cuisines than anything to be found in Greek food, which begs the question does Greece have an aristocratic or haute cuisine as such? If so I've never found it but then I haven't eaten in the top Athenian hotels either. My guess is that when Greeks want to eat "refined" cuisine they go French, or to a kind of Greek-French or Greek- Italian hybrid, rather than to Moslem Royal-reflecting Greece's greater cultural allegiance to it's Christian neighbours and Western Europe. But as The Real Greek rerstaurant in London is trying to demonstrate, their IS such a thing as Greek cuisine and maybe its very rusticity can be the foundation for taking it out of the backwater it's been up and giving it-dare I say it-culinary relevance. It's already beginning to happen with the Greek wine industry, while the Turkish wine industry is dead on its feet.

I am unclear why it is that people feel bad for longer than about a second if they reccomend a restaurant which is then not enjoyed. Why is it different to reccommending a film, or a CD or a book? If someone else enjoys it great, but if they don't-hey,well you know. So what? The fault might lie with them. In fact that's what most of us do, consciously or otherwise, when someone doesn't agree with our taste-convince ourselves that our taste is better than theirs. And why not?

Although there clear simlarities it's important to remember that Turkey is a (largely) Muslim country and Greece a Christian one. So, no pork in Turkey (lots of booze though, admittedly), but also different types of emphasis, different foods on feast days, different food rituals, different slaughter methods etc. which taken together probably creates enough differences for them to warrant separate consideration.

One of the things I've noticed when eating in both Greece and Turkey is that they seem to have an aversion to serving food piping hot. They seem to prefer everything lukewarm and tepid. Sine I was bought up by an "eat it while it's hot" mamma, I really struggle with this, especially with soups and wet casserole like dishes. Last time I was in Turkey I constantly sent things back asking them to heat it up please and STILL it would come back only warm. They would look at me as if I was mad..

Just to say that after Monday's near total emptiness, The Sutton Arms was completely full last night (Thursday).

Forgot about Cafe Spice Namaste which is a short walk away in Prescott St. I haven't been there for a couple of years and whenever I did go I found it wildly variable with some marvellous dishes and some absolute duds. Its probably the most interesting restaurant in the vicinity (I haven't been to Aquarium or Lighthouse 10).

As I recall they used to serve the minted peas steaming hot in a bowl over a locally made pork pie. With a pint of Theakston's it was bliss after a walk in the Dales. Who needs foie gras and truffles eh?

When we used to holiday regularly in the Dales the pubs we lunched in always used to serve up the mushy peas with mint sauce. Are you now going to tell me that this was the non-gourmet version for suvvern tourists?

Gavin, I can't figure out The Vestry's opening times. Smollensky's in Wapping High St is better than just OK. Very pleasant space, good views and very passable hamburgers and steaks. On the road that runs alongside the tower Bridge approach is a Davey's Wine Bar which does passable lunchtime fare. There's a Chez Gerrard on Trinity Square and a Foxtrot Oscar further along that parade whidh are both OK for a City type lunch, but no more.

The sprats and horseradish were excellent, but a bit of a salt hit. I could feel my blood pressure rising. I had Roast Middlewhite with Turnips. The pork was moist and tasty but the turnips came on the same plate swimming in the water they'd been cooked in-giving the whole dish a wet, school dinnerish kind of quality.I'd have preferred the turnips, which were sweet and pleasant, to have been drained. I've had fresher Eccles Cake with the superb Lancashire cheese before now. I suppose it depends how soon out of the oven you get them. The combination still makes a wonderful dessert though. Saturday night saw this restaurant full(or almost) and buzzing. It obviously has a unique appeal which must be to do with its minimalist and stark approach. What you see is definitely what you get here-no surprises no frills. Could it work anywhere other than Britain I wonder?

I've also stayed in several Paradores and state owned hotels, mainly in the north of Spain. Some of them are beautiful buildings in lovely settings but the food in their restaurants has never lived up to the setting. They seem to cater for a clientele who are not really interested in food. Much more exciting eating is to be had elsewhere even if its only in the cheap local restaurant down the road.