Michael Joy

I think it is safe to say that I missed the mark on that one Monique... when you said flower... I thought the real deal... pardon the "don't do it" drama. To make a mold of the releif logo should be relatively easy.. my only concern would be the thin petals... as I mentioned above in the previous response. (Your chef is right.. silicone will capture the detail nicely.) As far as the custom mold makers request to carve it into a bar of soap... I haven't heard that one before. Michael

Hi. I saw your post on egullet and looked through the chicago mold school web page. I was wondering if you could help me. I am from the Philippines and cannot find anyone who makes silicone molds. I have to make molds for small chocolate flowers (about 1 1/2 x 1/2") and they are a little detailed. The only chocolate molds available here are the hard plastic molds, I dont think the detail will come out in that material. I am looking into making my own molds but cannot find a a resource person from here. I read your post and was wondering if the silastic by dow will work for me. I have found a distributor here but I have yet to hear from them. The problem is I dont quite know what I am looking for. Any tips will be greatly appreciated. Thanks and i hope to hear from you. Monique, First off, I do not recommend using any silastic products for this project. The Silastic silicone will be far to stiff to cast a delicate chocolate piece. I recommend contacting Chefrubber.com. They have a variety of silicones that are fda approved and are very soft. Also, I do not think that the plastic molds will give you a very believable look. If you are going to look into buying a mold of a flower… look into silicone molds for casting soap or candles… the (flower) models have been designed with thicker pedals which will cast nicely in chocolate, However, the molds will NOT be food grade. You will have to copy the mold by making a plaster casting from the soap mold and then pour food grade silicone over the plaster flower. I should bring up a mold making principle…and that is.. Anything is moldable but that doesn’t mean that it is castable. For example, if I make a mold of a real flower. The pedals are paper thin. I cannot expect chocolate to flow into such a narrow space in the mold… and if it does flow in, I cannot expect the paper thin chocolate to stay in one piece while I bend and flex the mold off of the chocolate casting. A few tricks for molding flowers… 1. Dip them a few times in melted paraffin wax to thicken and stiffen the flower. Some flowers will dip well and others will shrivel up. 2. If that does not work, try dipping a “silk” flower into the wax. Silk plants work well for mold making… although you must be sure that they are completely sealed. Silicone will soak into the small weave of silk and bond to it. 3. Make sure to dip the flower enough time to create a thickness that looks like it will be strong enough to be cast in chocolate. 4. Use a sulfur free oil clay to fill in the deepest cavities in the wax covered flower. This should be done with care. Blend the clay into the flower cleanly. If your work is sloppy here, the mold will duplicate it and make for a sloppy casting. How to mold it: (A crash test approach.) 1. Hot glue the flower…stem side down (remove the stem) onto a laminated work board. The flower must be secure or it will float up when you pour silicone over it. 2. Construct a small retaining wall (mold box) around the flower. Use a non porous material such as a plastic container to make the mold box. Do not make the mold box too big, it should only be ¼ inch wider (on all sides) than the outermost edges of the flower. (some people use legos to make a mold box) 3. Mix up and pour your silicone (in a very thin stream) over the rose. If you pour too quickly or in a thick (pencil like thickness) stream, the silicone mold will have a lot of air bubbles in it. POUR SLOWLY. 4. Allow the silicone to cure for 24 hours and then post cure it… (instructions will be on the container) 5. Remove the flower from the work board and use a pair of manicure scissors to cut a clean circular opening on the bottom of the flower. (The opening should be made large enough so that chocolate can be easily poured into the mold.) 6. It will be likely that the flower will not be able to be pulled out the small opening at the stem. You will need to use a razor knife and cut 2 or 3 slices on the outside of your mold… do not cut the mold in half…just cut the outer most layer (like scoring an orange so that you can peel it) so that the mold can be flexed open wide enough to remove the flower. Regarding this project as a job. Monique, Do not accept this job if you have never made a mold before. You will loose you’re A$$ on the deal. Try the process first on your own time without the pressure of a client… it can end up costing you a lot if you promise chocolate roses for somebody’s special occasion and then cannot deliver. DO NOT TAKE THIS AS A JOB… DO NOT… DO NOT…. Practice first and write down how much you spend on materials, how long it took to make the mold and how long it takes to cast a perfect flower. (It may be that you only get one good casting out of 10.) Let us know of your outcome, Michael

Hola, I am assuming everyone out there has been as busy as I have recently.. I was surprised to see the postings dry up.... (Busy or not I keep an eye on the site.) Has anyone out there worked with the First Impression molds? Can anyone add to the list of other companies that are selling ready to use silicone molds? I am curious to know what else is out there. Thanks... Michael

I had a typo... Silastic is with an A not an I. Opps.

Group, I thought I would start posting emails that I recieve from people looking for information. I figure there are many more people reading than posting ... so this might be helpful to a few. (Pardon my typos in advance... I am doing this on the fly.) Person writes: I'm working on a chocolate project where I'd need to make custom molds. I wasn't able to find Notter's product online. Might you be able to provide a URL or contact? ***** Ewald Notter's products and silicones are sold through Albert Uster Imports. AUISwiss.com . You will find the goods there. Given your experience, for small to medium size, front only (not a true 360-degree piece) chocolate "reliefs" what would be the best and most cost effective product for mass production? **** Three answers... The most cost effective depends on your definition of mass production. If your shape is simple.. you should look into having someone make plastic vacuum form molds for you... They are less expensive than silicone. If you are looking for material less expensive than Uster's... have a look at Chefrubber.com. They have many things for the mold making chef. If you are fixed on silicone... and want the least expensive way to go... Purchasing one of Dow Cornings "Silistic" silicones will be your best bet. But be warned... you should be experienced with silicone before tackling Dows silicones.. They are platinum cured and can be touchy to work with... ie. might not cure against all surfaces. Buying from Dow will reduce you silicone costs from $40 lb down to 10-20 per pound depending on the quantity you buy. Also, what material would you suggest to use for the creation of the positive? **** Sculpt your original in whatever medium you are most comfortable with. Then make a silicone mold of the sculpture... and cast resin duplicates with Smooth Cast 300 (from Smooth-on.com) . The methods for working with the resin are shown in my book. If you do not want to use resin, plaster will work well... but it will not capture fine detail as good as the resin... Many Thanks! **** Happy molding!

Hello Kevin, Thanks for the local support. I am curious.. Who are the locals that would help? Wendy, I looked at the website… Those molds are made from a different process. The silicones that I am talking about are RTV. Room Temperature Vulcanization… simply put.. A liquid base and catalyst that when mixed together vulcanizes into a rubber at room temperature. The flexi pans involve heat and equipment that is not readily available to the chef. However, working with RTV silicones is within reach. I have not considered setting a mold into some other material for heat transfer.. It is important to note that when silicone is thin, it does not hold its shape…stabilizing it with anything other than a specially made mother mold would cause the mold (liner) to distort. The silicone does not block the heat…it holds the heat. If you heat up the mold…it will hold the temperature. Some silicones are even conductive. “Have you contacted someone like Rose Levy B.who's very into the science of baking to see if she has an interest in developing recipes suitable for silicone?” No I have not. Steve, You are right on the money with the custom embossing. I am working on products for that very thing at the moment. The catch is that the cost is high. Many people do not realize the up front cost a company like DeMarle absorbs in order to mass produce their flexi pans at a reasonable cost. “The challenge technically would be to produce a half sheet mold or a full sheet mold of them.” Not really a challenge. It takes a little more time but what you are describing is a gang mold. It is made by starting with one model that you sculpt/machine etc… then you make a silicone mold of it… and then cast dozens of resin copies… Layout the resin copies on a board…and pour silicone over them…viola… you have a gang mold. Earlier this year, a chef asked me to consider making the numbers and the alphabet…but I thought there were just too many sizes and styles to select from…and would end up spending a lot of time on tooling that did not sell. Am I missing the mark?

Good to hear that there is potential for baking with molds. I have not seen much except when they “flash” bake…ie…where cigarette cookie batter is spread on a textured mat and then baked for a few minutes…take it out of the oven and roll it into a little cone or other shape. It seems like the process could be expanded upon. I called a chef today…he was not certain what would happen when we bake IN a mold. I suggested preheating the mold until it is near the temperature needed for baking and then plunk the dough in and see what happens. Very scientific. Can you tell I bake every day???? NOT! What would you recommend? (Regarding what type of silicone to use for baking… It needs to be a platinum cured silicone. The platinum’s have a high service temperature. Depending on the silicone… 300-500F. It will take some testing to see which one behaves the best.)

Hello, This online thing is great. ...Wendy, I hardly think you stand alone... I think that the people reading this string can appreciate your view. I wish I had been able to respond sooner...didn't mean to create a dramatic pause...just knee deep in mold making at the shop. This is always a busy time...racing the weather at job sites. Can I open a new topic???? Is there anyone out there using silicone molds to bake with... (Other than the flexipan things)? The reason I ask is because I am interested to know what a baker would use a mold for... I see the chocolate and sugar all the time...but do not hear about the baking angle. I would like to add a few supplimental chapters to the book in the next printing and want to include bakery use of silicone molds... any ideas???

Nightscottsman, Thank you for your elegant response and practical analogy to the various issues regarding competitions. I just wanted to add that the history of pastry competition is very young.. I think the biggest event 10 years ago was the Pillsbury bakeoff. It has come along way….and will continue to move quickly. Drawing too strong of artistic conclusions from such a young event can be limiting. I know that things are being repeated in the events… but I assure you that is changing already. Wendy’s comments make me realize how important it is that more people see what happens behind the scenes of a competition. The public gets to view the event on TV or at the most Live… but the inner workings… that is the real story. I think a great show could be made about the history of a team going to competition… a “Hoop Dreams” documentary that follows a team for over a year. Any TV people out there? ….Seriously. I have worked with teams during their developmental time and see first hand the amount of thought, preparation and sacrifice that it takes to compete. Some chefs that I know refuse to compete anymore because they do not want to trade their marriage for the pursuit of an award. I hope that Wendy is not serious when she asked if all S. Canonne did was fill the molds for his MOF semifinals.. It is unfortunate that a conclusion like that could even be assumed based on one small photo in a magazine. Canonne is a remarkable chef. He and all of the other semi finalists were required to present a complete buffet… his had over 100 elements in it.. The snake and the apple were just a pinch in the whole scheme. The making and use of those two molds is featured as separate chapters in my book (you will see it is not as easy as just filling the mold)…and my only frustration is that I had to go to print before I could include photos from his completed MOF display in France. I remember meeting with Sebastien before the event where he was describing to me his creation.. He brought a 4” thick binder full of notes, designs, research/inspiration pictures… etc to my shop. The amount of preparation for that event was unbelievable… and that was just for the semifinals. I wish we could watch the MOF competitions like we can watch the others. On another note… I am curious if anyone out there is pouring any silicone? Any good wipeouts to report! Ha. Michael Joy

Hello again, Sinclair: “Is a mold like a recipe- something that varies depending upon the person using it? Doesn't it make a bigger difference if it's in the hands of someone highly competent?” **Hmm…I don‘t know that a mold is like a recipe… but perhaps the craft itself is like one. A huge amount (technically) depends on the person using the silicone when making the mold in the same way that putting a finished mold in the hands of an experienced chef will probably lead to more interesting and successful castings. There is a big difference between making a mold and casting (filling) the mold. There is a lot to know about casting molds…and that is where the skill and creative thinking of the chef comes strongly into play. Give the same 10 molds to 10 different people and tell them to make something interesting.. .and you will get 10 different finished castings. Thanks for your questions. I am hopeful that more people will jump in and share their thoughts.

Hello group, To add to my thoughts regarding the last post and my opinions about the use of molds in competitions…. I should say that I am glad that each competition has its own set of rules. My experience with competitions is that it is a group effort from the beginning. Each chef or team has one or more additional chefs (who have a lot of competition experience) that serve as their coach or advisors. Some competitions are designed to be held at a fixed location within a fixed amount of time… while others are the type where a chef brings in everything already completed and the judges evaluate the work even though it has been made before the competition with help from who knows who. My role has varied in different competitions. I have had people ask me if I have any molds of a certain shape that they can rent just for use in their display… and I have had teams ask me to model a small shape and then mold it for them. Competitions can involve several other non chef people… take for example the use of transfer sheets (they didn’t make those) or laser cut out stencils (didn‘t make those)…or CNC milled patterns of shapes (didn‘t make those)… Or find someone like me to mold an object. I think the more confusing matter is the definition of a mold. Some competitions allow the use of a textured mat…but not a mold… yet a mold of a geometric shape is allowed. Geometric shape??…. Is that because they think that is within the reach of anyone or because it is not a sculpted form? Or is it because a bowl or a box is a geometric shape…and everyone has those in their kitchens.?? I just don’t know. Most of the competing teams that I have worked with are interested in seeing the medium move forward, using whatever new methods that they can think of. There is great value placed on those teams who can develop and introduce a new process or technique….i.e. stump the judges and you score. This level of competition is often one where the chefs are already well versed in a wide variety of skills, flavor etc. The mold work that I do is usually just one small component of the entire presentation… the mold work will not win it for the team. It is more important how the chef used the mold making technology to enhance his work. The area that it gets touchy is … at what point does the piece become more about the mold making than the pastry work. I think that because mold making is relatively new to the field… the use of molds must have some outside influence to help chefs better understand what the medium offers. In the art world… photography was not considered art for a very long time. Painters hated cameras. At first it was a mechanical magic available to those who could build their own cameras…now cameras are available and people realize that it is what you do with it… your vision, your compositional skills… Not just that you can take a picture. I think that over time mold making will make its way into the fundamental curriculum of many culinary schools…It will probably be just another thing that chefs are exposed to…and become part of their vocabulary. At the US Team championships this year I was surprised to see many things in the kitchens that had been made by outside contractors… I met a rep from a water jet (high pressure cutting technology) company who was there because he cut out some forms for one of the teams… other kitchens had wooden forms that had been made in a wood shop. I did not hold it against the team because they needed a wood shop to help fulfill their creative vision. I can hardly expect a chef to be expert with a table saw. In that respect I think that chefs have enough to learn beyond the traditional culinary skills… now they need to carve, handle an airbrush, have great drawing skills etc etc. I understand why the use of mold making in competitions chafes some people… People want to feel that a winner has won on their own merits. I agree with this… but I wonder if using another person’s recipe causes the same chafe as does using another persons mold?

Hello Sinclair, ***I think you have summarized the three most frequently asked questions. I will cut and paste into them. >I'm an absolute beginner having never made a silicone mold before. Although I have seen "kits" you can purchase where you mix the two parts together and press your item into it. I have many really basic questions, I hope you don't mind me asking? ***First off…the silicone should be poured over your model.. Pressing into silicone will trap air bubbles. With that said…if you have never made a mold before, I always recommend learning with non food grade silicone. It is far less expensive and mistakes that you make will not bite your bank account. (In my book, I use a non food grade silicone called MoldMax 30.. It is available from a company called Smooth-On.com. They are a very large company and have an outstanding website….have a look and see where the mold making industry really is. There are dozens of companies like them.) The non food grade silicone is also good for practice casting. Many people think that casting with a mold is as simple as filling it up and popping it out…Unfortunately it is not always that easy. Once you have a handle on working with silicone and preparing your model… move onto the food grade silicones. The proper selection of silicone varies with what you want to cast and the shape of the object that is to be molded. For example… a highly detailed chocolate piece will need to molded with very soft silicone. Sounds easy enough… but lets say you want to use the same mold for sugar… it will work, but the soft silicones do not hold up to heat very long and will tear easily over a short time. 1. Can I use a silicone mold for either hot sugar or chocolate? ***Yes… but read on. 2. Isomalt is hotter then regular sugar when melted, does it require a mold of different materials? *** Does not require a different silicone. However, here is the secret to casting Isomalt clear and with minimal bubbles. There are two families of silicones… one is called a TIN cured system and the other is called a PLATINUM cured system. Tin silicones are less expensive, but do not handle as high of temperatures… and the molds usually last 3-5 years max. Tin silicones give off water and alcohol when they cure….The water and alcohol will cause the isomalt/sugar to bubble a lot. If you want to use silicone for casting isomalt or for baking…only use a platinum based silicone. Platinum’s can handle a very high temperature and will last a long time…. (The sacrifice is that they are not made to be very soft…This means… that if you pour chocolate into a “semi flexible” platinum mold… the casting will probably crack when you try to remove it from the mold.) For casting isomalt… boil it to about 165C and then let it cool to 105C before pouring into your mold. If you are casting solid…it will take a long time to cool. If you pour the isomalt too hot, the silicone will insulate the heat, and it will continue to cook and bubble…. The cooler you can pour the isomalt, the clearer your casting will be. 3. Price- can you recommend a place to purchase the ingredients for molds that's more affordable then what's sold thru food sources? ***Of course. A. Smooth-on.com for non food grade silicone… for practicing… the silicone is about $12 per pound in gallon quantities. B. Chefrubber.com. They are a new company specifically catering to the mold making chef… they have several food grade silicones available. They are packaged in convenient sizes and are about half the price you are used to seeing. C. Dow corning. This is a specific link to their Platinum based, food grade silicones… it is a tough page to find on the internet… http://www.dowcorning.com/content/moldmaki...ood/default.asp Dow is a huge company and can be tricky to work with because of all of the distribution networks… they are used to people buying in bulk. Call several distributors before making a purchase because you will see that the same material may hold a different price in different areas. (Avoid the silastic L.) What are your feeling about using molds in competitions (art or food competitions)? You must have some mixed thoughts being a teacher of the medium and an artist who'd rather not see someone win an artisitic competition based on work they couldn't produce on their own. *** I have many thoughts on this.. But have already written enough… I will add more this week. Happy molding. Michael ps. Thank you for the welcome Michael L. I'm interested to see what is stirred up...!

Hello group, A member from egullet alerted me to the topic of mold making on this forum. I did a little post reading and was intriqued to hear what was being said about mold making. Very interesting. I especially liked what was said about last years sculpture from spain... I thought it was terrific...but I can also see why it got canned. My reason for joining the group is to provide members with technical information about mold making. If there are people out there who are interested but do not know where to start...or those who are already molding but want to raise the bar... I would be interested in hearing from you. Michael Joy chicagomoldschool.com