Andy Lynes

That's my point.

Why?? Surely everytime you eat in a restaurant you are testing it...It's all about testing! ← What a terrifyingly joyless notion.

I think its the universality implied by the phrase "the wine test" that I object to; as though it was something we all do when we visit a restaurant, when in fact what we are talking about is an individual's preference. Although I understand that its a useful device for the critic, I dislike the idea of "testing" a restaurant at all. I'm sure it was not the intention here, but it could be percieved as trying to catch the restaurant out, thereby putting the customer and restaurant on a combative footing which would not help the cause of getting this country the kind of service it deserves.

I'm sure you realise that comment was made in jest, however, I do see a picture building up here; "I'd like to come at quarter past the hour, not half past, not on the hour but quarter past. And I must pour my own wine. Make sure they all know about that. And I want that table, the one Michael Winner always sits at..."

I think its my age. Ever since I turned 40, the world seems full of young whipper snappers with no respect. We're not going to agree on this, but the upselling point is a very good one. Its bloody infuriating when waiters are obviously trying to get you to drink up in order to sell another bottle (not that I've found any waiter yet that can pour faster than I can drink, but its irritating when you know they are doing it). Even worse is when they try the same trick with the water, filling the glass nearly to the brim and then asking immeadiately "would you like another one?" Anyway, I sincerely hope this isn't a crusade on your part to stop the practice of wine pouring in restaurants, I rather like it. In fact I'm looking forward to the time when they butter your rolls for you and carry you to the loos in a sedan chair.

Thats not what I said. However, pouring wine at the appropriate time can be an indication that the front of house are being properly attentive to the customers needs and not just going through the motions. Put this another way, what if I visited a restaurant that doesn't usually pour wine for it's customers (due to the size of the restaurant, the available number of staff or simply a wish not to be formal), and I demanded that someone pour my wine for me. If that didn't happen, would I then be in a position to say that they had failed my test of good service? Should I be able mark them down for it? You have to qualify and contextualise the statement that "good service is about giving the guest the experience he/she wants", otherwise the next time I come to Margots I'll be demanding to end the evening with a line of coke and a lap dance from Jordan. I think Simon Gueller could be forgiven, if when he read the review, for thinking "f***ing hell, now he's criticising us for pouring his wine." I could be way off beam here (I have been before and I will be again no doubt), but I think in the context of that review it was a petty remark and an unnecessary twist of the knife.

Jay Rayner's rather negative review of The Box tree in today's Observer makes mention of something he calls "the wine test". This is when you dine in a Michelin starred restaurant, or I suppose any other type of restaurant, and ask "them" not to pour the wine for you. If the wine is still poured, then the restaurant has failed. This seems a rather nonsensical test to me. In establishments above a certain level, it is the expected norm that the wine will be poured by the waiter. If the wine is put out of reach of the customer and poured either too rarely, leaving the poor punter's alcohol levels too low, or so often that it becomes intrusive, then you have an error in service. However, for a customer to demand to pour their own wine when that is obviously intrinsic to the service offering of the restaurant might be interpreted as sheer obstinacy. What next, "don't bring the food to the table, I'll fetch it from the kitchen when I'm ready."? There is such a thing as making everyone's life needlessly difficult.

Sounds like a reasonable precaution to me. You never know who might be attracted to these sort of programmes. What happened with the last show, I can't keep up. Are you going to be on it or not?

I'm unlocking this thread now. But I have had to delete several off topic posts and to remind members that the purpose of eGullet is to discuss matters relating to food and drink. We welcome the frank exchange of views; in my opinion, this thread has shown how eGullet can help a restaurateur see things from his customer's point of view and allow customers an insight into the practical and emotional realities of running a restaurant. Let's keep the discussion on topic and reasonably civil. As a reminder: - Matters of general site policy should only be discussed in the Policy Discussion Centre. - Queries or comments about specific site management decisions (e.g. about the deletion of a post) should be directed to site officials by PM or e mail. They shouldn't be posted anywhere on the board. - Public discussions of administrative decisions are not permitted and will be deleted Now, back to the food. Thanks.

The Gun is very good indeed.

We try to monitor as high a percentage of what gets posted on eGullet as we can but with severly limited human resources and way too much work to do, it simply isn't possible to catch it all. As you will know we have a user agreement and suite of associated policies that we use to regulate the site, and having read every post on this thread with great interest, I believe that the thread has remained within the limits of our policies and agreements. Although the exchanges are certainly charged at times, I would characterise nothing contained within the posts as malicious. In order that this thread remains on topic I would ask that you contact me by PM if you have any further policy related questions for me, and not to post them here. Thanks.

To Explain: In line with other similar threads on other forums, I have pruned posts from this thread that dealt purely with the organisation of historical meetings (and indeed those that were cancelled.) One of the aims of the events policy is to focus postings on eGullet on food and drink related matters. I hope you will agree that the slimmed down thread is now easier to read and that it is easier to find relevant information about burgers in Vancouver that you may be looking for. Future events can be organised on the forum, but a similar pruning process will take place once details of the event have been finalised. You are of course free to plan the event via the PM system or e mail if you think it might be more expedient. In order to ensure this thread stays on topic, if you have any comments, please contact me via PM. Thanks. Burger away!

What a pity as I recall you had liked your first meal there even more than I had liked mine and we were thoroughly pleased. ← That's right. I thought it was an almost perfect meal and I was thrilled with the place. I really wanted my wife to share a similar experience, but it wasn't to be this time. I have to say that she was able to see the humour in the situation better than I and predicted correctly that I would see the pear dessert again before the baba! I didn't get angry or anything, although I was a bit sulky with the sommelier when he finally turned up to ask about my red wine order. I pointed at the empty bowl of cheese and said "Its too late now" and shrugged in a Gallic sort of way.

After a near perfect meal at Aux Lyonnaise during a business trip to Paris in March 2004, I was keen to repeat the experience with my wife during our weekend in the city to celebrate my 40th birthday. The evening started in a delightful way with a warm welcome, some champagne and a bowl of fromage frais with shallots and fine herbs. We chose from the amazingly good value menu du jour (still just €28) and enjoyed the superb charcuterie, a fine salad of soft- boiled egg, frisee and crouton (I could hardly believe it when I saw waiters carrying several of the clear glass bowls back to the kitchen unfinished, leaving the delicious "soup" of yolk, dressing and croutons untouched), a glorious boudin noir and excellent quenelles. We drank a delicious bottle of Monthelie Premier Cru 2002 as recommended by the young and friendly sommelier. Things then started to go somewhat awry. My wife had ordered completely from the du jour menu. I, in celebratory mood, had requested a St Marcellin cheese to share and the baba au rhum to finish, both from the carte. This was OK'd by the manager who warned me that a supplement would be levied, but that my choice was "parfait." After the main courses were delivered, two pears poached in Beaujolais arrived, the dessert from the du jour. I explained that we were expecting the St Marcellin first, then one pear and one baba. The desserts were taken away and then we were visited by several staff to whom I explained the situation and eventually the cheese was delivered. It was wonderful. I rather fancied a glass of red to go with it and asked a waiter as he passed the table if I could get a glass from the chalk board menu of wines by the glass and by the carafe. He said he would send over the wine waiter. I asked him twice more before the waiter arrived by which time the cheese had gone as had my requirement for red wine. The two plates of pear from the du jour menu then reappeared. I explained again that I had ordered the baba. Another waiter then appeared to explain to me that as I had ordered from the du jour menu, that it was "impossible" for me to have the baba. I said that the request had been ok'd by the manager who had taken our order and that I was fully expecting to pay a supplement. The waiter went and spoke to the manager and eventually the baba arrived. I hated it! I found the rum to be completely overpowering and had to leave most of it. This was taken away with out comment and then we had a long wait for the bill, which arrived without a charge for the cheese or the baba. That the deduction was made from the bill without comment closed the case from my point of view (although at no point did anyone apologise to us). I left frustrated and very disappointed. The food had been as good as I remembered, the room as beautiful and evocative as I recalled it to be, but the chaotic service pretty much ruined the evening for me. I would have much preferred to have been told that my order would cause them problems and that I would have needed to order a la carte if I wanted additional courses, it would not have been a problem. As it was, we got caught in the middle of a hectic Saturday nights service and ended up feeling like we had gotten in their way, not the desired outcome from either the restaurant or our point of view.

The Fat Duck has been awarded 19 out of 20 by Gault Millau. Full story at caterer-online.com.

Oh good lord. Do me a favour would you, kick this man's butt please (metaphorically speaking of course.) Thanks. If you have cable, he's on Great Food Live on UK Food TV.

The forum chat with Derek Bulmer is now finished. I would like to thank Derek for giving so generously of his time this past week and for his fascinating answers. Derek has been our first UK forum chat guest and I hope you all agree that the event has been a success. We are looking forward to welcoming more guests in the near future, so look out for announcements soon.

Maybe Bjorn at The Greenhouse could show you sonething new, otherwise I'd suggest outside London and Claude Bosi. Or there's always Heston of course. or maybe its time for you to be the "Ramsay at Aubergine" type of chef. I'd come amd eat at your place if you were.

Its seems that the reservations I had about my meal - some things being overly sweet; a disconnect between sone of the elements of some of the dishes - overwhelmed and spolit your lunch. Perhaps there's a little too much creativity in the kitchen and not enough consistancy at the moment.

Derek - you described your typical inspector as being drawn from the hotel and caterering industry, but do you ever recruit from outside the industry? I imagine the job of Michelin inspector might be one or two eGullet member's idear of the perfect job.

As I was in the area last night, I popped into the Bluebird Dining Rooms just for a look around. Its a really nice room, one of Conran's best efforts I'd say, and the menu reads like a dream. I want to go. Now.

Having interviewed David, I understand the sort of limitations he faces working in Vancouver in terms of supply chain and human resources. That said, I think West is an outstanding establishment, and if the chef were to return to the UK and open a similar place, I believe it would rate 2 stars in the Micheln guide.

They're very relieved. By the way, which restaurant are we actually talking about?

Among the people that liked it, a group which apparently doesn't include you. Does that necessarily make them wrong?

I do, but this is something else. I have no wish to bad mouth UK restaurateurs, but I would seriously doubt you would find anyone over here operating at a similar level to David (which probably equates to 2 Michelin stars) who would consider holding a similar event for that sort of money. I'm right of course to assume that you all gathered around the pass and chanted "We are not worthy, we are not worthy" and then backed out of the restaurant, bowing as you went?