Bocca

[g.johnson]

Aren’t regional variations so great that to call something “authentic Italian” (rather than authentic Tuscan, Sicilian, etc.) is close to meaningless?

[LaNiña]

Yes.

[SobaAddict70]

However, Mario Batali's places don't come up to authentic for me. Again, just an opinion. I think they're fine restaurants and I think he's a great chef - I thought Po was excellent and his best - but the word authentic bothers me.

I'll grant you that Lupa is less "authentic" than desired. Haven't been to Esca so I can't comment on it. Po is no longer a Batali venture (and the quality there has declined since he left to pursue other interests).

Didn't mean to flame you, so I guess I'll define myself more clearly. A restaurant that dares to call itself "authentic" needs to make sure (in my opinion) that its entire experience is authentic -- and that means, cooking in as close to authentic as possible, a wine list that does not have outside (Chardonnay! ugh) or foreign influences (although I don't drink, you get the idea), etc.

For example, I'm sure if you dig deep enough, somewhere you'll find crab cakes somewhere in Italy. In my experience, I've not found that to be the case. Crab cakes seems to me a more American, Southern to be specific, invention, so when you described your experience, my gut reaction was to think "adaptation", not "authentic".

I don't doubt that lemon sauce is used extensively in Italy. In fact, several pasta sauces use fresh lemon juice or lemons as a focus or major component -- i.e., tagliatelle with lemon zest, ricotta and caviar; spaghetti with lemon juice, olive oil, Italian oil-packed tuna, olives, herbs and capers; taglierini with an emulsified lemon sauce (lemon juice, eggs, cream, lemon zest,) and herbs; the list goes on and on. But a dish like "crab cakes with lemon sauce" to me smacks of an Italianized version of "Maryland crab cakes with tartar sauce" -- not really worthy of being authentic.

A bolognese sauce to me is not authentic unless its created as a bolognese sauce would be -- mirepoix of onions, carrots, celery in olive oil, ground or snipped beef, pork and veal, headcheese or sausage, plum tomatoes, herbs, wine, meat stock, a little milk, spices.

True, as others have pointed out, authenticity is also ground in subjectivity and history, so that what is authentic to some becomes imitation to others. That said, Bocca may be a good restaurant but as described does not even come close to the mark (for me).

Thanks for listening,

SA

[rich]

So what Mario tomato sauce ("gravy") are you criticizing?....

And do you know about the sausages he carries?

I believe his cooking meets all of your "authenticity" criteria, so I'm having trouble understanding what you mean.

I've had is tomato sauce twice - once at Po and once at Babbo. It was a pasta special ordered by a friend of his- not sure of the name. Both times I was disappointed.

I enjoy his sausages. But I believe he over sauces his meat/fish dishes at times.

I never said I didn't enjoy Babbo...it's just the "A" word. I never had any intention of staying away.

I'm sure his style of cooking is "A" to him and his family. Heck, Joe Torre said on TV, he can make a "gravy" in one hour that tastes like it's been cooking for eight. I don't doubt his claim, but I would need to be persuaded a little. P.S. - I think he Americanized it.

[SobaAddict70]

I'd say that (and I could be wrong) Babbo is 70% Tuscan/Romagna and 30% everything else.

Hard to do pan-Italian unless you want to go all over the place. For example, I didn't see any Ligurian or Sicilian dishes, but then again I didn't look very hard.

*shrug*

SA

[rich]

Hard to do pan-Italian unless you want to go all over the place.  For example, I didn't see any Ligurian or Sicilian dishes, but then again I didn't look very hard.

Very true and maybe that's a big part of the issue. My family was probably made up of vagabonds. They were all over the place.

SA - so now that we're friends again, does that mean you're coming to Staten Island and Bocca? I'll even make you Italian Crab Cakes as a bribe (my grandma's recipe).

[SobaAddict70]

SI is a little too far for me.

Thanks for the invite though.

SA

[LaNiña]

SA, it's not far, really. The good ethnic food is in the outer boroughs...

[Blondie]

A quote from the Babbo cookbook introduction:

“Many people ask me what type of Italian food we serve at Babbo, and I have no pat answer. While there are certainly a few dishes on the menu that are faithful renditions of beloved regional dishes, like braised shortribs (brasato al Barolo), most of them are nothing you would find in an Italian trattoria or home. Yet they feel and taste like dishes you might eat in Italy. Like Italian cooks, we use locally grown products with a near fanaticism to express the flavor of our dirt, our wind, our rain.”

[SobaAddict70]

its not the distance really

its the ferry ride. I get motion sickness fairly easily (not applicable on a subway or on an airplane), so a ride on the ferry is out. easier for me to say SI is too far than to explain the real reason.

this is why for example, why I don't read while in a car (note to cabrales by way of explanation). the headaches come easily and take a while to get rid of.

you'll just have to sit this one out without me I'm afraid.

Pure di patate is the Italian equivalent of mashed potatoes, the difference being that once the potatoes are mashed, they are returned to the pan while as much butter and hot (but not scalding) milk as the potatoes can absorb is beaten into them. Parmigiano-reggiano is then beaten into the dish only if the potatoes are compatible with the entree.

I'm still not sold on the crab cakes. The closest that comes to is probably cooked granseola (spider crab), which has been shredded and combined with olive oil, lemon juice, salt and pepper, and then returned to the shell for serving.

Many people consider chop suey to be an authentic Chinese dish when its really American in origin (California in the late 19th century, or so the story goes). Ditto for egg foo young and fortune cookies.

SA

[LaNiña]

bus over Verrazano, hello....

[SobaAddict70]

*sigh*

it really is too far.

I'll schlep to Brooklyn, Queens or Arthur Avenue in the Bronx, but I'm *not* going to SI either by boat or by bus/cab (the long way -- BQE to the Belt Parkway or whatever, over the V Bridge, and back again).

Maybe if they invented teleporters like in the Jetsons, I'd go then. But not likely to happen in my lifetime.

heh

SA

[LaNiña]

Soba dear, where there's a will there's a way. I live in Park Slope. If traffic isn't horrendous, it's a 10 minute ride to the bridge from my house. 3 minutes over, and then Rich picks us up...or you take the subway to the Brooklyn side of the bridge, and we get Rich to hop over...it doesn't take any longer than getting to the Bronx or to certain parts of Queens...

...wait, you're a young guy...oy, what's gonna be when you're older?

[SobaAddict70]

them's fighting words...heh

who sez I'm young?

=P

SA

[rich]

Contrary to popular belief, no passport is necessary to travel to Staten Island. Just wanted to clear that up.

Nina - even if SA can't make it, you're more than welcome. We'll all have a crab cake discussion.

SA - My grandmother did put the crab back in the shell and top it with seasoned crumbs- but I don't anymore and neither did Bocca - I guess we're all "Americanized."

[LaNiña]

My grandmother did put the crab back in the shell and top it with seasoned crumbs- but I don't anymore and neither did Bocca - I guess we're all "Americanized."

So much for "authentic."

[Fat Guy]

French cuisine is a philosophy, one that centers around technique, approach, and conceptualization of food. Provided you have salt, pepper, and basic cooking fats you can take an animal from Neptune and make a recognizably French dish out of it. French cuisine travels well.

Italian cuisine is more commonly associated with regions, local ingredients, and specific approaches. When people come back from trips to Italy and rave about the food, they are raving about unique regional ingredient-intensive experiences for the most part. Technique doesn't enter the conversation. The specialized ingredients of regional Italy are not available outside those regions in any meaningful way. Italian cuisine, when framed in these terms, travels poorly.

Italian-American cuisine attempts to capture the ingredients of certain regions of Italy: The canned tomatoes, the parmesan cheese, the basil, veal, etc. That's part of the reason why Italian-American cuisine is a caricature of Italian cuisine, and every Italian who comes to America will confirm this. Italian-American cuisine can be wonderful, vibrant, and delicious (though it rarely is) but it is not Italian cuisine in the same way that Chinese food made from canned bamboo shoots and water chestnuts is not Chinese cuisine.

I believe the reason for Mario Batal's success is that he has cracked a code we long believed was not present in Italian cuisine: He is one of the few American chefs to grok Italian cuisine as a philosophy. That's why his food, inauthentic as it may be from an ingredients standpoint, tastes so much more Italian than the food served at Manducatis, Piccola Venezia, Bamonte's, and others. Batali has figured out how to transport Italian cuisine, and by examining his work we can learn much about the true meaning of authenticity.

[Robert Schonfeld]

Technique doesn't enter the conversation.

Except sometimes; pasta making being an obvious example.

Did you read the Batali profile in the New Yorker, FG? What did you think of it?

[Fat Guy]

The pasta may be more about the flour and eggs than about the technique, but no matter. And no, I haven't read the Batali piece. I don't really read the New Yorker, because it's not a worthwhile magazine and hasn't been in years. But if you say to read that specific piece I'll do it.

[LaNiña]

FG, read this particular issue, although I agree about the New Yorker in general. It's all about food, and some is worthwhile. I really enjoyed the piece about the "Fruit Detective," and the Batali piece was at the very least, informative.

[Fat Guy]

So far I've read Trillin's piece (not in the 50+ percentile of his writing) and about a third of Gopnik's (mediocre -- as Bux has said, and I agree, Gopnik's food writing is his worst writing). I suppose I'll get to some of the other pieces too.

[LaNiña]

The Batali piece, and the Fruit Detective piece are the ones I most enjoyed.

[Fat Guy]

Okay.

[markabauman]

I have not eaten at Babbo; just recently read the Babbo cookbook which I have since returned to the library. I believe even Mario himself in the introduction has a disclaimer stating that Babbo is not truly authentic, whatever that means. I believe he stated that the cuisine is authentically-based with emphasis on fresh, seasonal ingredients as close as possible to what one could find in Italy, based on authentic Italian dishes but with his interpretative twist. So even though Mario might be the most "authentic", maybe he realizes what Fat Guy is stating about Italian food not traveling well away from place/ingredients and that his statement is actually a very honest one.

[Fat Guy]

Following in Rich's footsteps, a friend and I checked out Bocca last night. Driving from Manhattan to Staten Island is an incredible hassle so a restaurant has to offer something unusual to make it worth the extra three-hour round-trip unpleasantness commitment. One look at the wine list, however, addresses that issue. This list is so chock full of bargains I'd need about an hour with it to cross-reference intelligently. It seems as though they've been buying all the good California stuff at release prices since the mid-1990s and have never raised any prices. So, if you don't happen to have a cellar full of these wines, and if you enjoy drinking them, this is a worthwhile destination for wine alone.

The restaurant seems out of place on Hylan and in fact would seem out of place anywhere because it's got such an odd combination of decor elements. The renovation was obviously super-expensive. Somebody told somebody to make the place look like an upscale Manhattan restaurant and to spare no expense. Then somebody else came in with a bit of lowbrow taste and created a one-of-a-kind place. There's the gorgeous temperature controlled wine display. Look at those lovingly maintained hardwood floors. And oh, look up there, on the ceiling, somebody robbed a discotheque and installed a light show that changes the color of the ceiling from purple to pink to green and so on every five seconds all night long. But if you don't look at the ceiling it feels quite urbane in there.

Service is totally pro -- you can't ask for better. The manager's name I think is Herbert and he was taking the orders. When we arrived at 7:00pm there was only one other table occupied in the entire place, but by 8:30 the room was at about half capacity and he was still the primary contact for every table. I assume weekend nights are when the locals really come out and populate the place, and at that point there must be an additional manager type on the floor. Still, given the Manhattan prices I wonder if the Staten Island crowd is patronizing the place.

A nice selection of breads and a coarse-textured tapenade set the right tone.

Most of the food was excellent. This is pretty upscale, internationalized stuff -- don't expect much in the way of either red sauce or the typical "Tuscan" stuff you see around town. Among the specials, for example, were crab cakes and Dover sole. We ordered both and both were as good as could be. I'm trying to remember better crab cakes and I can't. The product was top quality, the cakes were packed loosely, and they had a nice mixture of fresh herbs and a little red pepper incorporated. The Dover sole was firm, cooked just through, and presented in the old style -- filleted and plated tableside and dressed with lemon-caper butter.

Gnocchi Bolognese -- great, an absurdly large portion with a delicate but still rich meat sauce. The gnocchi were non-doughy and non-leaden. A plate of spinach ravioli with mushrooms and scallops was less successful. The ravioli were pretty good, and the portion was generous by the standards of ravioli portions. But the mushrooms were soggy and the scallops were cooked beyond just tough to outright rubbery. A pounded, breaded veal chop topped with fresh mozzarella and halved grape tomatoes was competently executed though undistinguished and the veal was a bit tougher than it should have been. Of the desserts we tried, tiramisu was acceptable and the rest were poor.

Wine service is excellent, with all reds being decanted and served in large Spiegelau stems.