Trotter and Tramonto square off over Foie Gras

[FaustianBargain]

Not true! If Charlie Trotter does not want to serve foie gras, I do not care. It's his restaurant and he can serve what he likes (even if that means embracing Raw Food--can we say "The Emperor has no oven"?), but does he need to be so sanctimonious about it?

He can be anything he wants and that includes being sanctimonious and you can be anything you want.

It will be a wonderful world.

[ronnie_suburban]

It is an irrational stance to clamour to hoist blame on *someone*.

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Depending on which side of the issue one stands, that could just as easily be credit being hoisted. But, the way political issues snowball (especially in Chicago) I think it's naive to assume that Trotter's influence isn't being felt on this issue -- regardless of whether one would define it as blame or credit.

=R=

[FaustianBargain]

Who connected ALL of those repelled by the idea of forcefeeding ducks? If someone did I'm sure you'll find the post and quote it in your rebuttal.

Good grief, woman! Now you are just toying with my feelings, aren't ya?

AREN'T YA?

[FaustianBargain]

It is an irrational stance to clamour to hoist blame on *someone*.

←

Depending on which side of the issue one stands, that could just as easily be credit being hoisted. But, the way political issues snowball (especially in Chicago) I think it's naive to assume that Trotter's influence isn't being felt on this issue -- regardless of whether one would define it as blame or credit.

=R=

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Wrong. A simple search will show you that this

Legislation also is being considered in Oregon, New York, Illinois and Massachusetts that would make it a criminal act even to possess the delicacy. Activists recently persuaded about 10 restaurants to stop serving foie gras in Pittsburgh.

..appeared way before the Chicago Tribune article, Liver and let live(march 29th, 05).

In fact, I would hazard a guess that the swirling rumours about the foie gras ban was what made Trotter's previous comments(I wonder *when* they were made) to Phil Vettel an interesting story for Mark Caro. Remember that it was he who approached Trotter and not the other way around.

When it comes to media news, everything hinges upon who gets to the public first. If the pro-foie gras people make the announcement first, they get an upper hand. If the anti-foie gras people make the announcement first, they can grab the public's attention first. The article's very obvious pro-foie gras tilt and the fact that Trotter was approached by the media rather than the other way around is a classic 'pre-emptive' strike. I dont know whether it was intentional or if it just happened that way. Whatever it was, it had an effect that benefits one player in the story more than the other.

[ronnie_suburban]

It is an irrational stance to clamour to hoist blame on *someone*.

←

Depending on which side of the issue one stands, that could just as easily be credit being hoisted. But, the way political issues snowball (especially in Chicago) I think it's naive to assume that Trotter's influence isn't being felt on this issue -- regardless of whether one would define it as blame or credit.

=R=

←

Wrong. A simple search will show you that this

Legislation also is being considered in Oregon, New York, Illinois and Massachusetts that would make it a criminal act even to possess the delicacy. Activists recently persuaded about 10 restaurants to stop serving foie gras in Pittsburgh.

..appeared way before the Chicago Tribune article, Liver and let live(march 29th, 05).

In fact, I would hazard a guess that the swirling rumours about the foie gras ban was what made Trotter's previous comments(I wonder *when* they were made) to Phil Vettel an interesting story for Mark Caro. Remember that it was he who approached Trotter and not the other way around.

When it comes to media news, everything hinges upon who gets to the public first. If the pro-foie gras people make the announcement first, they get an upper hand. If the anti-foie gras people make the announcement first, they can grab the public's attention first. The article's very obvious pro-foie gras tilt and the fact that Trotter was approached by the media rather than the other way around is a classic 'pre-emptive' strike. I dont know whether it was intentional or if it just happened that way. Whatever it was, it had an effect that benefits one player in the story more than the other.

←

You can choose to discount Trotter's specific influence on this issue in Chicago. I won't. This is a bandwagon issue for the Chicago City Council and once Trotter's stance came to light, the landscape changed. I'm not claiming that the issue started (locally) with Trotter, only that he's given it legs, whether he intended to or not. Thus, blame (or credit).

=R=

[touaregsand]

Excellent points Walrus.

In my very own opinion, Chef Trotter was not actually serious about going Lecter on Tramonto's liver. So please, chill out. Yes, poor choice of words and stupid, angry response, but, again in my opinion, not evil or even actually threatening. The sort of thing people say when they're feeling slighted by someone who's not there, but whom they'd trusted until someone else told them what mean things were being said about you (you know, like in 5th grade, when Timmy told you that Sally said that you weren't all that pretty and you said, well she's a stupid idiot. I wish she'd get hit by a bus). You might as well get worked up about people saying, for example, "I'd kill for a slice of foie gras!"

I don't think that anyone else thought Trotter was serious about going Lecter. A few of us had a good laugh over his "whup ass" comment. Another post compared his physical appearance to Mihaus on the Simpsons. No one is afraid of Trotter getting physically violent, except for geriatric dachsunds.

Yeah, I know like in 5th grade. That's how Trotter comes off to me, puerile. Although I know 6 year olds who can maintain more composure, like my daughter for instance. Trotter chose his own words. Trotter has been playing the PR game long enough not to be manipulated by a reporter. Even after some time, which for some is coupled with greater consideration of an issue and choice of words, he came back with "whup ass."

He's coming off as proselytizing Napolean with a sprinkling of Ramboesque machismo.

"Watch out! He's big, bad and mean! And he's back!"

Milhaus enters the room...

[FaustianBargain]

You can choose to discount Trotter's specific influence on this issue in Chicago.  I won't.  This is a bandwagon issue for the Chicago City Council and once Trotter's stance came to light, the landscape changed.  I'm not claiming that the issue started (locally) with Trotter, only that he's given it legs, whether he intended to or not.  Thus, blame (or credit).

I cannot convince you of anything. All I can do is put forth the facts..rather the visible facts. It is upto you to sift through it and arrive at a logical and rational conclusion.

If you wish.

We can go on like this till the cows come home, but the bottom line is this...

whether we like foie gras or if we find the treatment of ducks for foie gras deplorable, we are in the same square.

We do not wish grief upon others who disagree with our values. We do not want violence to terrorise the lives of innocent people. We definitely do not want to trample upon each other's rights. When I say 'we', I mean you and me and Trotter and bourdain and egullet foie gras lovers and the saner farm sanctuary members.

It wasnt because of the right wing loonies who went ape shit on Chef Manrique that foie gras production was banned in CA. Surely, a few restauranters would have denounced foie gras because of intimidation. But many(Chef Trotter being one of them) gave it up on their own from the evidence that was collected and presented by other animal rights activists. It was legislation. It was incessant lobbying to the public and state that made it happen.

Let those who are pro foie gras use the same elegance of strategy to revert what has been done. If they can. Let them offer support, financial or otherwise, to those restauranters who feel that they cannot take the risk of serving foie gras. Let them take matters in their own hands. Let them *make* their constitutional rights work for them. The right way. I challenge them pull up their balls and ACT instead of whining. This is laziness.* Let the best man win. But together, let both them work as a team to disable the domestic terrorists. Fighting against each other is folly and a profoundly tragic waste of time and energy.

edited to add:

* and acting like in '5th grade' doesnt help.

You know what happens when you act like you are in 5th grade? You go to the 6th grade. That's it. Good luck.

I know, some of you here think that Trotter is 'puerile'. But you need those from the other camp more than they need you. Seriously.

Edited April 8, 2005 by FaustianBargain (log)

[touaregsand]

You can choose to discount Trotter's specific influence on this issue in Chicago. I won't. This is a bandwagon issue for the Chicago City Council and once Trotter's stance came to light, the landscape changed. I'm not claiming that the issue started (locally) with Trotter, only that he's given it legs, whether he intended to or not. Thus, blame (or credit).

As goes California--often goes the rest. (As I have found everytime I each for my smokes at a saloon in NYC. )

It's turning into a tidal wave.

Legislation also is being considered in Oregon, New York, Illinois and Massachusetts that would make it a criminal act even to possess the delicacy. Activists recently persuaded about 10 restaurants to stop serving foie gras in Pittsburgh.

The irony is that it began in California by a govenor who initially dismissed the issue, but later decided to jump on the Hollywood bandwagon with his cronies.

Fascinating how politics work in this country.

[FaustianBargain]

Fascinating how politics work in this country.

←

Ok, luv. Let's move on.

[touaregsand]

edited to add:

* and acting like in '5th grade' doesnt help.

You know what happens when you act like you are in 5th grade? You go to the 6th grade. That's it. Good luck.

I know, some of you here think that Trotter is 'puerile'. But you need those from the other camp more than they need you. Seriously.

Where is the other camp? I want to TP and egg their tents. (I'm kidding Faust. I want to be very clear about that. Don't quote this as an example of "violence" from the my camp).

More importantly, what exactly is the other camp you are referring to? Fine dining restaurants need to cater to the anti-foie gras consumer? Or do they need to submit to anti-foie bullies? Oh no, I'm not saying that all anti-foie gras folks are all bullies. I'm saying that some of them have been known to use bullying tactics and not just on Chef Manrique. Tactics like physically disrupting the flow of business can be very persuasive.

[FaustianBargain]

edited to add:

* and acting like in '5th grade' doesnt help.

You know what happens when you act like you are in 5th grade? You go to the 6th grade. That's it. Good luck.

I know, some of you here think that Trotter is 'puerile'. But you need those from the other camp more than they need you. Seriously.

Where is the other camp? I want to TP and egg their tents. (I'm kidding Faust. I want to be very clear about that. Don't quote this as an example of "violence" from the my camp).

More importantly, what exactly is the other camp you are referring to? Fine dining restaurants need to cater to the anti-foie gras consumer? Or do they need to submit to anti-foie bullies? Oh no, I'm not saying that all anti-foie gras folks are all bullies. I'm saying that some of them have been known to use bullying tactics and not just on Chef Manrique. Tactics like physically disrupting the flow of business can be very persuasive.

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You can continue to dwell on that. It makes a great excuse and excellent raw material for a blame game. Dont you want to move on and make things happen?

[ivan]

Legislation also is being considered in Oregon, New York, Illinois and Massachusetts that would make it a criminal act even to possess the delicacy. Activists recently persuaded about 10 restaurants to stop serving foie gras in Pittsburgh.

←

The writing's on the wall. Kiss your foie goodby, America. We had a brief flirtation with fancy eating here in the States, but face it folks: it was all just a pretense. We're not really a nation of gourmands, we just play one on FoodTV. Other values, in particular the rights of animals, are more important.

It takes a lot of time and trouble to grow a foie gras. For thousands of years, there have been people who considered the result to be worth the trouble. I don't think they asked the goose for an opinion, or if they did, the outcome of that conversation is lost in the mists of time. In any case, foie producers continued to ply their trade undaunted until the modern age, when it occurred to people that maybe the duck doesn't enjoy the process after all. For people who would not eat liver under any circumstances, the process is not worth the cost. Then there are those who place the comfort of a goose above the comfort of a human child. There is no fighting this tide.

Animal husbandry is on its way out, because nothing can justify our enjoyment of meat at the expense of an animal's life and comfort. I defy you to draw a line between force-feeding geese and keeping gentle creatures incarcerated, feeding them slop laced with chemicals designed to make them obese, hooking them up to giant noisy sucking machines, and, after all that, electrocuting them and hacking them to bits. There is no humane way to mass-produce meat, and we are just beginning to grapple with that fact. In the end, cows and chickens will be released back to the wild, where they will live short, brutish but noble lives, as we tuck in to our salads. As soon as the first all-vegan frozen meat-analog conglomerate goes public, I'm buying stock and moving to France.

[Bux]

. . .

P.S.  I hadn't finished the article when I posted the above.  So I left out noting that they quoted Bux, too.

Bux's point of this being more about Chef vs. Chef civility rather than the foie argument was well made; but the article, of course, played on the foie debate because it is more sensational.

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"Chefs in London are noted for stepping out of the kitchen and arguing with diners on the floor, but that doesn't happen in New York or Chicago as far as I know," Buxbaum said. "Most chefs are respectful to other chefs, at least in public."

What I don't know is quite a bit. For instance, this seemingly rather gratuitious statement from a review of Anthony Bourdain's Les Halles Cookbook: Strategies, Recipes, and Techniques of Classic Bistro Cooking by Amy Zavatto from the Hartford Avocate of December 9, 2004, has been brought to my attention.

Ask him about chef Charlie Trotter and the raw-food movement. You get classic bone-gnawing Bourdain: "I think after World War II, in the English-speaking world, there was this sort of Puritan idea or concept that taking too much pleasure in food led to bad character. That in some way if you enjoyed yourself at the table too much it would lead to the harder stuff. Like sex. I think the French and Italians understood, 'Yeah! It just led to sex!' And they were absolutely OK with that. But, you know, let's take Charlie Trotter for example. You know what's wrong with Charlie Trotter's food? He cooks like a guy who's never been fucked properly."

I'll leave it the reader to determine if it's personal, or about the food. It comes off as least "heat of the moment" kind of statement than Trotter's, but I think they're both too well aware of the media to make that kind of claim anyway.

Edit: I see another member, FaustianBargain has already found and made reference to this review, but I'll leave my post up as it has now been quoted. I will post a follow up in turn.

Edited April 8, 2005 by Bux (log)

[The Cynical Chef]

Excellent points Walrus.

In my very own opinion, Chef Trotter was not actually serious about going Lecter on Tramonto's liver. So please, chill out. Yes, poor choice of words and stupid, angry response, but, again in my opinion, not evil or even actually threatening. The sort of thing people say when they're feeling slighted by someone who's not there, but whom they'd trusted until someone else told them what mean things were being said about you (you know, like in 5th grade, when Timmy told you that Sally said that you weren't all that pretty and you said, well she's a stupid idiot. I wish she'd get hit by a bus). You might as well get worked up about people saying, for example, "I'd kill for a slice of foie gras!"

I don't think that anyone else thought Trotter was serious about going Lecter. A few of us had a good laugh over his "whup ass" comment. Another post compared his physical appearance to Mihaus on the Simpsons. No one is afraid of Trotter getting physically violent, except for geriatric dachsunds.

Yeah, I know like in 5th grade. That's how Trotter comes off to me, puerile. Although I know 6 year olds who can maintain more composure, like my daughter for instance. Trotter chose his own words. Trotter has been playing the PR game long enough not to be manipulated by a reporter. Even after some time, which for some is coupled with greater consideration of an issue and choice of words, he came back with "whup ass."

He's coming off as proselytizing Napolean with a sprinkling of Ramboesque machismo.

"Watch out! He's big, bad and mean! And he's back!"

Milhaus enters the room...

←

Excellent Point!? Hardly.

No one in this discussion actually believed that Trotter is considering cannibalism BUT Charlie Trotter is a very respected Culinary Professional and up until now I had considered him a mature ADULT. Mature adults do not make such comments. Charlie's ill-mannered comments are what I would expect out of Kid Rock or Alan Iverson both of whom may be over 30 but cannot be considered adults. This is the same person that hosted those wonderful, cerebral PBS cooking series? Has he totally lost control of the English Language. Has he taken leave of his senses? Charlie Trotter is gonna whup ass?

This entire episode is quite disheartening. Charlie Trotter behaving like a 5th grader or a spoiled rock star.

If he does not want to serve foie gras, fine with me. He wants to puff himself up, publicly deride foie gras as inhumane and then joke about eating Rick Tramonto's liver while cooking dead animals and yet he wants to be taken seriously? His position has more holes in it than Fallujah.

Oh Lancelot....Jousted with humility lately?

[FaustianBargain]

But, you know, let's take Charlie Trotter for example. You know what's wrong with Charlie Trotter's food? He cooks like a guy who's never been fucked properly."

I'll leave it the reader to determine if it's personal, or about the food. It comes off as least "heat of the moment" kind of statement than Trotter's, but I think they're both too well aware of the media to make that kind of claim anyway.

←

Precisely, Bux! I am willing to believe that bourdain never really meant that Charlie Trotter cooks like he has 'never been fucked'...just like Charlie Trotter never meant what he said about cooking Rick Tramonto's liver.

edited to add..

The writing's on the wall. Kiss your foie goodby, America. We had a brief flirtation with fancy eating here in the States, but face it folks: it was all just a pretense. We're not really a nation of gourmands, we just play one on FoodTV. Other values, in particular the rights of animals, are more important.

Oh ivan..ivan..ivan..foie gras does not fancy eating make...I can whip up a 'fancy dinner' for you..for a dozen people..for a hundred..without foie gras.

C'est vrai.

Edited April 8, 2005 by FaustianBargain (log)

[touaregsand]

Excellent Point!? Hardly

Irony. I meant that ironically. Of course you could have as well.

[Bux]

Maybe I'm just cynical, could it be that Mr. Trotter's attempt to portray himself as some sorta righteous, animal-defending, wont-serve-foie-gras chef, is just for the sake of publicity and getting more customers to go to his place rather than the competition's because it's foie gras-friendly?

I mean if 60 percent+ of online Chicago Tribune readers voted against it, wouldn't that mean next time they go to a fine dining establishment, they'd prefer a place where no foie gras is served? And now the bill to ban foie gras. The way I see it, by 'raising awareness' of the foie gras issue, Trotter's just ultimately trying to benefit himself. All the 'I wont serve foie gras but I respect others who do' is sorta BS.

←

It should be understood that Charlie Trotter, not unlike rick Tramonto, Thomas Keller, Alain Ducasse, etc. appeals to about two percent of the polutation and that 2% is probably heavily into foie gras.

[scordelia]

Ask him about chef Charlie Trotter and the raw-food movement. You get classic bone-gnawing Bourdain: "I think after World War II, in the English-speaking world, there was this sort of Puritan idea or concept that taking too much pleasure in food led to bad character. That in some way if you enjoyed yourself at the table too much it would lead to the harder stuff. Like sex. I think the French and Italians understood, 'Yeah! It just led to sex!' And they were absolutely OK with that. But, you know, let's take Charlie Trotter for example. You know what's wrong with Charlie Trotter's food? He cooks like a guy who's never been fucked properly."

I'll leave it the reader to determine if it's personal, or about the food. It comes off as least "heat of the moment" kind of statement than Trotter's, but I think they're both too well aware of the media to make that kind of claim anyway.

←

I think it's about the food. I know people rave about Charlie Trotter's, but I have been there 3 times over the past 16 years (always taken by someone and each visit was several years apart), and was not impressed.

All you have to do is watch "Kitchen Sessions" to realize he can't cook. I once watched him lard filet mignon with olives, grill it, then make a sauce for the beef out of more olives and anchovies and then decide the whole thing needed more salt! I could feel my ankles swell while I watched.

The only thing to say about Raw Food is "The Emperor has no oven"!

Sophie

[The Cynical Chef]

Excellent Point!? Hardly

Irony. I meant that ironically. Of course you could have as well.

←

It was sarcasm, not irony

[touaregsand]

You can continue to dwell on that. It makes a great excuse and excellent raw material for a blame game. Dont you want to move on and make things happen?

How do you propose to make things happen?

Good grief, woman! Now you are just toying with my feelings, aren't ya?

AREN'T YA?

I take that to mean you didn't find any posts. If anything you are thorough.

Ok, luv. Let's move on.

Yes sweetie pie (I reserve that term for boys. You are a boy?), let's move on with the discussion to further the discussion. Responding to a post to simply dismiss the post does not further the discussion. Just ignore the post.

In order to further the discussion, you still didn't answer my question.

edited to add:

* and acting like in '5th grade' doesnt help.

You know what happens when you act like you are in 5th grade? You go to the 6th grade. That's it. Good luck.

I know, some of you here think that Trotter is 'puerile'. But you need those fro

m the other camp more than they need you. Seriously.

Who is the other camp? And why does "you" (who is this "you" by the way?) Need "them" more than "they" need "you".

[ludja]

...

It wasnt because of the right wing loonies who went ape shit on Chef Manrique that foie gras production was banned in CA.

...

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I suspect that the 'loonies' who vandalized Sonoma Foie Gras and intimidated Chef Manrique would consider themselves 'left-wing loonies'.

Ok, maybe they don't consider themselves to be loonies but I would be surprised if they id'd themselves as right wing.

[Bux]

. . . .

The real issue is that foie gras production and consumption is incompatible with the food culture of America. The support for such a practice is not sustainable in the long run. Not only in the States, but all around the world. . . .

Foie gras isnt 'meat'.

←

You've made two statements that pretend to be facts. They are at best your beliefs, but when you state them as facts, you reduce the value of everything you post in my opinion. Whether or not support is sustainable for foie gras probably depends more on the belief in disinformation accompanied by disinterest and and a loathsome desire to attck that which one can't appreciate. Right, foie gras is poultry and not a hell of a lot fattier than some of the battery raised chickens sold in our supermarkets.

[Bux]

. . . .

The writing's on the wall. Kiss your foie goodby, America. We had a brief flirtation with fancy eating here in the States, but face it folks: it was all just a pretense. We're not really a nation of gourmands, we just play one on FoodTV. . . . .

←

You don't watch a lot of Iron Chef America do you? You should see how haute cuisine suffers in the point scores.

[touaregsand]

Ask him about chef Charlie Trotter and the raw-food movement. You get classic bone-gnawing Bourdain: "I think after World War II, in the English-speaking world, there was this sort of Puritan idea or concept that taking too much pleasure in food led to bad character. That in some way if you enjoyed yourself at the table too much it would lead to the harder stuff. Like sex. I think the French and Italians understood, 'Yeah! It just led to sex!' And they were absolutely OK with that. But, you know, let's take Charlie Trotter for example. You know what's wrong with Charlie Trotter's food? He cooks like a guy who's never been fucked properly."

This reader takes it to mean that Trotter is puritanical and that raw food is not pleasurable, sensual, sexy...

Heat of the moment perhaps. But Bourdain builds up to his assessment of Trotter in a fairly literary way.

The human liver comment on the hand is just gross.

[Bux]

I think the human liver aspect is not the heart of the argument. (Offal wasn't that?) It's about the use of words such as "idiot" or "idiocy" and "hypocrite" and "hypocrisy." Let's try not bog the discussion down on technicalities.