Kanto vs. Kansai

[Hiroyuki]

Hiroyuki-san,

Thank you for discussing this.  Even my wife (from Yamanashi) did not know about the softer water.  She knew about the salt and stronger taste, though.

The main reason is that the water in Kansai is softer than the water in Kanto.

The softer the water, the more dashi you can get from kombu.

Another reason is that Kansai culture is that of noblemen, who did little manual labor and therefore did not require much salt, whereas Kanto culture is that of bushi (samurai), who did a lot of manual labor and therefore required much salt.

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I didn't know about it either until I saw this TV show, Me Ga Ten.

[Hiroyuki]

Very interesting. Actually I didn't know about the dashi difference. How do you taste it?

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How do we taste it? In that TV show, they used some measuring instrument to determine the difference.

Let me give you some more details:

In the Edo period, Hokkaido was a major producer of kombu, and the sea route via the Sea of Japan was more developed than the Pacific route, so kombu was mainly delivered to Osaka but not to Edo (former Tokyo). Besides, as I said in my first post here, kombu matched the soft water in Kansai.

In Kanto, on the other hand, katsuobushi was highly valued because of its similarity in sound to "win man bushi" (勝男武士 in Kanji). Katusobushi was fishy and required more soy sauce when dashi was made than kombu.

[nuppe]

Really... I knew about the sea route, but not that the kombu ended in Kansai. And when I tried to make dashi at my place in Norway I used both kombu and katsuobushi, to be sure...

But this was valuable information. Thanks again.

Very interesting. Actually I didn't know about the dashi difference. How do you taste it?

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How do we taste it? In that TV show, they used some measuring instrument to determine the difference.

Let me give you some more details:

In the Edo period, Hokkaido was a major producer of kombu, and the sea route via the Sea of Japan was more developed than the Pacific route, so kombu was mainly delivered to Osaka but not to Edo (former Tokyo). Besides, as I said in my first post here, kombu matched the soft water in Kansai.

In Kanto, on the other hand, katsuobushi was highly valued because of its similarity in sound to "win man bushi" (勝男武士 in Kanji). Katusobushi was fishy and required more soy sauce when dashi was made than kombu.

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[nuppe]

If I should try to summarize impressions from eGullet and elsewhere, Kansai kitchen is regarded as more subtle, light, delicat and possibly assari than Kanto. Accordingly the Kanto food would be stronger, darker, more smelly and more salty. There is a stronger preference for red fish in Kanto, while Kansai stick to the white. In Kansai area they use to base the dashi on kombu, and the softness of the water makes this possible and good. Kanto prefer katsuo, and the fishy katusobushi also require more soy sauce.

In addition you have preferences for special food types like natto. There are other regional specialities as well, but no one would divide the regions like natto. Explaining all this will be a little struggle, but I'll do a try. Thank you again and please tell me about things I've missed or misunderstood.

(Personally I find Japanese kitchen subtle and delicate almost anywhere)

[Hiroyuki]

more smelly

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Good going, nuppe! But I have a feeling that smelly is such a strong word.

I would also like to note that kombu (inosinate) and katsuobushi (glutamate) are now used together in both Kansai and Kanto for a synergetic effect. (Am I right, Osaka-based members?)

Natto!! My brother-in-law comes from Osaka. He couldn't have natto before he married my sister, but now he can.

Do you have anthing to add, Helen and Osaka-based members?

[Hiroyuki]

(Personally I find Japanese kitchen subtle and delicate almost anywhere)

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The Japanese tend to turn everything assari and sappari (similar to assari but refreshing as well), even French dishes, as exemplified by this site.

The title says:

Sick and tired of kotteri (opposite of assari) and tappuri (fullness)

Yearning for sappari French

[nuppe]

(Personally I find Japanese kitchen subtle and delicate almost anywhere)

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The Japanese tend to turn everything assari and sappari (similar to assari but refreshing as well), even French dishes, as exemplified by this site.

The title says:

Sick and tired of kotteri (opposite of assari) and tappuri (fullness)

Yearning for sappari French

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Sugoi! And now I have at last read through the part about subtraction cuisine as well. Very interesting, but needs to be digested slowly.

[JasonTrue]

Even French cuisine has that movement with "nouvelle cuisine" and more recent les... Neue deutsche Küche, or new German cuisine, or is also less heavy than the bürgerlich cuisine that Germany is more well known for.

But Japanese cuisine actually emphasizes this "assari" and "sappari" taste as a central characteristic. Unlike French or other European cuisine, it's impossible to really make adequate Japanese cuisine without having a good understanding of these attributes. Overseasoned Japanese food doesn't really taste Japanese.

I did notice an interesting cookbook a while back (in Japanese) that featured contrasting recipes (stamina vs. sappari)... Of course, there are some foods that are also fairly "heavy" by Japanese standards popular in Japan, like curries, yakiniku and yakitori, and tonkatsu, but they also happen to have fairly clear foreign lineage (India, Korea, probably Austria).

[Hiroyuki]

Even French cuisine has that movement with "nouvelle cuisine" and more recent les... Neue deutsche Küche, or new German cuisine, or  is also less heavy than the bürgerlich cuisine that Germany is more well known for.

But Japanese cuisine actually emphasizes this "assari" and "sappari" taste as a central characteristic. Unlike French or other European cuisine, it's impossible to really make adequate Japanese cuisine without having a good understanding of these attributes. Overseasoned Japanese food doesn't really taste Japanese.

I did notice an interesting cookbook a while back (in Japanese) that featured contrasting recipes (stamina vs. sappari)... Of course, there are some foods that are also fairly "heavy" by Japanese standards popular in Japan, like curries, yakiniku and yakitori, and tonkatsu, but they also happen to have fairly clear foreign lineage (India, Korea, probably Austria).

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Stamina!! We have a stamina ryouri thread somewhere in the Japan Forum, started by me. Japanese stamina dishes are not necessarily kotteri or mattari. Any dish containging garlic, suppon, eels, etc. can be considered a stamina dish, don't you think?

[Hiroyuki]

Recent posts in the Japan Forum regarding negi have got me thinking that I must make sure what I mean when I say something like, "I like to eat natto with negi."

In Japan, negi is largely divided into nebuka negi (根深ネギ) and ha negi (葉ネギ). The former is popular in Kanto, and the latter in Kansai.

When I say, "I like to eat natto with negi," I mean the white part of nebuka negi. People in Kanto usually use only the white part of nebuka negi and dispose of the upper green part.

This webpage clarifies the difference between nebuka negi (first left photo) and ha negi (first right).