Vermouth

[marty mccabe]

would love to preserve and aromatize one of loimer's reislings... it brings incredible acidity and strange concentrations of flavor... is that fair game or do you have to use a wine that is flawed and try to breath some life back into it?

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I've got mixed feelings there: I'm the NE manager for Loimer's importer, so anything that encourages more Loimer to be drank...hey, great!

That said, there's a lot more body in a Loimer Riesling than I think one might want in vermouth, as well as some residual sugar (about 7 grams in the Kamptal).

What about a nice muscadet? Great acidity, light body. Seems like an ideal vehicle...

[bostonapothecary]

would love to preserve and aromatize one of loimer's reislings... it brings incredible acidity and strange concentrations of flavor... is that fair game or do you have to use a wine that is flawed and try to breath some life back into it?

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I've got mixed feelings there: I'm the NE manager for Loimer's importer, so anything that encourages more Loimer to be drank...hey, great!

That said, there's a lot more body in a Loimer Riesling than I think one might want in vermouth, as well as some residual sugar (about 7 grams in the Kamptal).

What about a nice muscadet? Great acidity, light body. Seems like an ideal vehicle...

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vya uses moscat... its a pretty cool grape. i don't have enough experience with it and should probably try more of them. presently i'm sipping some vya dry and his tastes rather similar to my first edition where i used a mineraly macabeo...

isn't more body often an asset? especially when it take more than you think to dilute the wine fortifying it...

using loimer would be like the barolo chinato of the dry category =) not decadent but advanced... i love the kamptal...

[thirtyoneknots]

I am really not much of a fan of Vya Dry; for 3x the price of Noilly Prat you get a product that takes over every cocktail except Martinis. Don't believe me? Try a Metropole (1.5 each of brandy and dry, 2 dashes ob, 1 dash Peychaud's, up with a twist) sometime with each kind of vermouth. My money is that you'll want to pour out the one with Vya. There's some weird way that it clashes. I wonder if it uses lots of new oak or something.

[bostonapothecary]

I am really not much of a fan of Vya Dry; for 3x the price of Noilly Prat you get a product that takes over every cocktail except Martinis. Don't believe me? Try a Metropole (1.5 each of brandy and dry, 2 dashes ob, 1 dash Peychaud's, up with a twist) sometime with each kind of vermouth. My money is that you'll want to pour out the one with Vya. There's some weird way that it clashes. I wonder if it uses lots of new oak or something.

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maybe you just have the wrong brandy... it might want armagnac... you gotta stage a fair fight...

if you only had one brandy like an artistic constraint... i wouldn't really make the drink out of the book... subsidize the brandy... it leads to a different drink but the goal i'm sure was just some sort of massive liquid sophistication...

Edited December 17, 2007 by bostonapothecary (log)

[MaxH]

I scanned this thread, but despite all the discussion of vermouth composition I didn't spot the point that might be very interesting or timely right now.

It's widely understood that vermouth traditionally is herb-flavored wine. There are many modern versions, but does everyone know the original herb that gave this product its name?

Vermouth is the anglicized form of the German Wermut (pronounced similarly), German for the wormwood plant. (As in Artemisia absinthium, source of the name of a distilled spirit using it that's lately returning to fashionability.)

That history was publicized in one of the major modern US absinthe-liquor writings prior to 10 years ago, although I don't see it emphasized in the recent online absinthe-hobbyist FAQs. I'll add from my own reading that the modern reference-size German-English dictionary I use renders the English "vermouth" back into German as equivalent to "wormwood wine." FYI.

[thirtyoneknots]

I am really not much of a fan of Vya Dry; for 3x the price of Noilly Prat you get a product that takes over every cocktail except Martinis. Don't believe me? Try a Metropole (1.5 each of brandy and dry, 2 dashes ob, 1 dash Peychaud's, up with a twist) sometime with each kind of vermouth. My money is that you'll want to pour out the one with Vya. There's some weird way that it clashes. I wonder if it uses lots of new oak or something.

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maybe you just have the wrong brandy... it might want armagnac... you gotta stage a fair fight...

if you only had one brandy like an artistic constraint... i wouldn't really make the drink out of the book... subsidize the brandy... it leads to a different drink but the goal i'm sure was just some sort of massive liquid sophistication...

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FWIW I like a Spanish Brandy in that one.

[TAPrice]

Everyone says I should store opened vermouth in my frig. I'm been faithfully following that advice. But now I wonder if my wine cooler, set at 55º F, would do just as well. Any thoughts?

[thirtyoneknots]

Everyone says I should store opened vermouth in my frig. I'm been faithfully following that advice. But now I wonder if my wine cooler, set at 55º F, would do just as well. Any thoughts?

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I would imagine that the extra coldness of the fridge would help moderately. I don't think storing it in a wine cooler would be a bad idea, it's just that for me theres more interesting things to put in the wine fridge than vermouth

[chefboy24]

my default sweet vermouth is the carpano antica formula, which i prefer to the m&r.  it's a little more sweet and mellow than the punt e mes, and to my taste nothing (for the money) can beat a 2:1  rittenhouse:antica manhattan with a few dashes of hermes orange bitters.  *drool*

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sounds delish

try a 2:1 knob:vya sweet with some peychauds and an orange twist.. heaven!

[slkinsey]

Has anyone tried the "Vermouth Classico" from Casa Martelletti? I picked up a few bottles recently and have been liking it a lot. It's made on a base of moscato.

Edited February 29, 2008 by slkinsey (log)

[bostonapothecary]

has anyone ever seen "cinzano reserva dry vermouth"?

"a select blend of chardonnay and other fine wines"

the color is very interesting. it is a golden straw color and isn't fined very well... how old could this stuff be?

i just picked up a few bottles of it along with and old version of campari...

[bostonapothecary]

has anyone ever seen "cinzano reserva dry vermouth"?

"a select blend of chardonnay and other fine wines"

the color is very interesting. it is a golden straw color and isn't fined very well... how old could this stuff be?

i just picked up a few bottles of it along with and old version of campari...

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so i gave the cinzano dry reserva another test drive with some food... i know some people are into the spirited pairings... i drank it simply refrigerated... the vermouth on its own is very challenging to describe. its dry but not as dry as any conventional dry vermouth. i think it underwent maloactic fermenation like alot of softer acid style white wines... it is very hard to determine where the botanicals stop and the wine begins. and overall there is some kind of a funk like a really terroir driven white wine... like a vermentino from provance i have on the list or livio felluga's tocai friulano from the colli orientali... a shade of earthiness...

the food was from my regular take out joint.... chris schlessinger's allstar sandwitch bar...

Papa al Pomodoro: Tomato, Fried Garlic, and Bread Soup...

so this is a really good soup and i think i've eaten it four days in a row. it has some amalfi herbs in it. rosemary and parsley... its hard to describe its acidity or if its ameliorated with sugar like some tomato sauces... this makes the vermouth tastes like a very ancient tawny port or a good example of a white port. but the analogy isn't so straight forward. its like seeing a mirage of a tawny. its the first thing that comes to mind but you don't get the right mouthfeel... its there for a moment and then its gone... i bet its the effect of really similar acidities making the wine seem fuller in the mouth. the botanicals in the vermouth seem to be subtracted and your brain only recognizes the expression of fruit... you can get similarly structured comparisions out of barolo chinato and chocolate where the bitter of the chocolate matches the bitter of the chinato and your brain is left with only the fruit...

Ham, Swiss, Mango Preserves & Watercress Pressed on Whole Wheat

this sandwitch was one i've never had and is a great variation of their mango chutney, cheese, and watercress theme... if i had a wine i think i'd want a viognier but the vermouth proved really interesting for something "dry"... the influence of the chutney, making the sandwitch slightly sweeter than the vermouth i think, brought into focus the most vivid flavor of banana that was realer than any i can remember eating... banana is an inherent flavor of many chardonnays and its cousin grapes... i would have never predicted the food could make the vermouth taste so drastically different but intensely recognizable... it wasn't the most elegant trasnformation but it was definitely interesting...

i think i just drank 10 oz. of dry vermouth...

[brinza]

2 questions:

Pennsylvania lists two vermouths identified as "Quady Vermouth". They sell for $18 a 750ml bottle. Would these be the Vya products? No wonder I never noticed them before! I guess we've had Vya all along, and I never realized it. The stores closest to me don't stock them (which is why I've never seen the actual bottles), but I would only have to go a little farther to get them.

Second, while there is much discussion on the storage and shelf-life of opened vermouth, how long can one expect to be able to keep a bottle of unopened vermouth? I imagine that some of it probably sits on the store shelves and in warehouses for longer than we'd care to admit. What I'm wondering is, is it safe to stock up on seldom seen vermouth products as long as they're kept unopened until needed?

[lostmyshape]

Pennsylvania lists two vermouths identified as "Quady Vermouth".  They sell for $18 a 750ml bottle.  Would these be the Vya products?

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um... maybe? PA has stocked vya from time to time. i've only seen the extra dry (in east liberty) recently.

Second, while there is much discussion on the storage and shelf-life of opened vermouth, how long can one expect to be able to keep a bottle of unopened vermouth? 

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nearly indefinitely, right? i mean, it's fortified wine, so as long as air doesn't get to it, it should be fine. alchemist and others say an opened bottle only lasts 2 weeks and you should toss vermouth after that. well, it may start degrading after 2 weeks, but i'm guessing we've all kept them around longer than that. sure, they're not as good after a week or so, but i've had vermouths (and quinquinas) opened for a couple months and not noticed any "off" flavors. not as good as when first opened, but not bad enough to justify tossing a half-full bottle of $18 vya. doesn't hurt to throw out a $5 martini & rossi, though. if in doubt, taste to see if it's kicked the bucket.

Edited May 29, 2008 by lostmyshape (log)

[bostonapothecary]

Second, while there is much discussion on the storage and shelf-life of opened vermouth, how long can one expect to be able to keep a bottle of unopened vermouth?  I imagine that some of it probably sits on the store shelves and in warehouses for longer than we'd care to admit.  What I'm wondering is, is it safe to stock up on seldom seen vermouth products as long as they're kept unopened until needed?

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vermouth does age in the bottle... maynard amerine notes that people have been interested in studying the aging of aromatized fortified wines but noone has really gotten around to it... there are tons of fortified dessert wines with similar structure to vermouth besides the botanicals and their aging is known to be very slow...

dessert wines (high sugar) supposedly age very fast to start and then slow down drastically and move slower than regular dry wines...

i've tasted bottles of stock with weird labels that were probably on a shelf for a decade and they were still fun to drink. the cinzano reserva dry that i've written about is probably very old and therefore affected by aging... i'm lucky to have alot of old white wine experience. the old cinzano tastes alot like old dry white wines i've had... a little worn down... probably better younger... but still interesting.

if you save something unopened and drink it within the decade i say go for it... and when you buy it write the date on the bottle so you can blog about it down the road... and the way alot of the M&R sweet and dry's taste, i'd say they have some really efficient supply chain management... i wish they put born on dates on them... though i still don't like M&R and find their stuff unelegant... maybe its the lack of age?

i think campari ages (slowly) and i think cynar probably does too... its so low in alcohol and seldom used you would have cause to worry about an opened bottle...

amerine referenced vermouth aging in "dessert, appetizer, and related flavored wines, technology of their production" maybe i can track it down...

[brinza]

Pennsylvania lists two vermouths identified as "Quady Vermouth".  They sell for $18 a 750ml bottle.  Would these be the Vya products?

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um... maybe? PA has stocked vya from time to time. i've only seen the extra dry (in east liberty) recently.

Robinson Town Center has both varieties right now. I'm going to the airport tomorrow so I think I'll stop in there to have a look at the bottles in person.

bostonapothecary, thanks for the information! I'm enjoying learning about and trying out different vermouths. What non-Pennsylvanians don't understand (and lostmyshape can back me up on this) is that when you live in PA, you are conditioned to believe that there is only Martini & Rossi. Nothing else. Oh, there are a couple other choices--really really cheap stuff like Spatola and Tribuno (warning: use Tribuno sweet only if you like putting Lambrusco in your Manhattans! ).

[brinza]

Pennsylvania lists two vermouths identified as "Quady Vermouth".  They sell for $18 a 750ml bottle.  Would these be the Vya products?

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um... maybe? PA has stocked vya from time to time. i've only seen the extra dry (in east liberty) recently.

Robinson Town Center has both varieties right now. I'm going to the airport tomorrow so I think I'll stop in there to have a look at the bottles in person.

Just to confirm: the "Quady Vermouth" is in fact the Vya. I bought a bottle of each.

[eje]

Some friends gave me a mostly full but somewhat aged bottle of Vya Sweet Vermouth. Ironically just after I'd bought my own and pretty much decided I didn't really like it.

I'm frustrated with trying to use it in cocktails, so I'm trying to think of what to do with this embarrassment of sweet vermouth riches...

Maybe reduce it by about a third, hit it with some Brandy/Cognac, and then spike it with a touch of wormwood tincture. Maybe steep some additional spices in it after reducing?

Or maybe just keep reducing it to a true syrup...

There has to be some way to make this product more interesting.

[brinza]

Some friends gave me a mostly full but somewhat aged bottle of Vya Sweet Vermouth.  Ironically just after I'd bought my own and pretty much decided I didn't really like it.

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I will admit, when tried straight, I found the Sweet really weird. It has a kind of vegetable taste. And when I say vegetable, I mean like in a V8 sort of way. However, when I tried it in a couple cocktails, it was fine. I tried a Martinez and a something (can't recall the name) that was a variation on a perfect Rob Roy. I haven't opened the Extra Dry yet. I don't want to have too many vermouths open until I get a Vacu-Vin or something. I plan do more experimenting with several kinds of vermouths this weekend.

I've seen a few comments by posters who seem to like Bossiere Dry, but what about their Sweet? Anyone? If one were forced to choose between, say, M&R Sweet and Bossiere Sweet, which would it be?

[Scott Koue]

I toss sweet in pasta sauce, not a lot just a bit. Anything with a lot of tomatoes also works with a touch. As a side note a touch of anise liquor of some sort is also a nice touch with tomato pasta sauce. Both add a depth and complexity that I like a lot.

I've noticed lately that the flavour in my open bottles of vermouth has started to head south, so I think it's time to replace them. However, I feel really bad about simply dumping the remainder of the current bottles. Any suggestions on how to use them up? I frequently cook with dry vermouth, in things like risotto or, well, anything that calls for white wine. But what can you do with sweet vermouth once it's past its prime?

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[bostonapothecary]

Some friends gave me a mostly full but somewhat aged bottle of Vya Sweet Vermouth.  Ironically just after I'd bought my own and pretty much decided I didn't really like it.

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I will admit, when tried straight, I found the Sweet really weird. It has a kind of vegetable taste. And when I say vegetable, I mean like in a V8 sort of way. However, when I tried it in a couple cocktails, it was fine. I tried a Martinez and a something (can't recall the name) that was a variation on a perfect Rob Roy. I haven't opened the Extra Dry yet. I don't want to have too many vermouths open until I get a Vacu-Vin or something. I plan do more experimenting with several kinds of vermouths this weekend.

I've seen a few comments by posters who seem to like Bossiere Dry, but what about their Sweet? Anyone? If one were forced to choose between, say, M&R Sweet and Bossiere Sweet, which would it be?

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i haven't seen the bossiere in boston but i've started to prefer stock and cinzano over M&R... i try to keep half bottles of all of them in the house only because they are so cheap... why not? i keep two brands open at a time so that i can make comparisons... i've started to prefer the vermouth to the gin in my martini's...

[brinza]

i haven't seen the bossiere in boston but i've started to prefer stock and cinzano over M&R... i try to keep half bottles of all of them in the house only because they are so cheap... why not? i keep two brands open at a time so that i can make comparisons... i've started to prefer the vermouth to the gin in my martini's...

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I forgot about Stock. I can get that here; can't get Cinzano (except by special order and then it's half a case or nothing). The Stock isn't expensive at all, but the only size offered is 1.5L! That's a lotta lotta vermouth.

[bostonapothecary]

i haven't seen the bossiere in boston but i've started to prefer stock and cinzano over M&R... i try to keep half bottles of all of them in the house only because they are so cheap... why not? i keep two brands open at a time so that i can make comparisons... i've started to prefer the vermouth to the gin in my martini's...

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I forgot about Stock. I can get that here; can't get Cinzano (except by special order and then it's half a case or nothing). The Stock isn't expensive at all, but the only size offered is 1.5L! That's a lotta lotta vermouth.

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i finally found and picked up the bossiere sweet and dry vermouths but i have yet to open them up...

i also just picked of a bottle of Cribari's sweet vermouth made in Canandaigua New York. i guess they are known for cooking marsala and jug wine style stuff. but their sweet vermouth is not horrible at all... a liter was $4. i can drink it for breakfast in my half sinner half saints...

[TBoner]

Some friends gave me a mostly full but somewhat aged bottle of Vya Sweet Vermouth.  Ironically just after I'd bought my own and pretty much decided I didn't really like it.

I'm frustrated with trying to use it in cocktails, so I'm trying to think of what to do with this embarrassment of sweet vermouth riches...

Maybe reduce it by about a third, hit it with some Brandy/Cognac, and then spike it with a touch of wormwood tincture.  Maybe steep some additional spices in it after reducing?

Or maybe just keep reducing it to a true syrup...

There has to be some way to make this product more interesting.

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I boil down sweet vermouths I don't like into syrups and use them in vinaigrettes (an idea culled from the Babbo cookbook: Cinzano vinaigrette). A warm vermouth vinaigrette is great with pork or lamb, btw. But yeah, I wish I'd been able to sample the Vya sweet before buying. I love my Cinzano: the Vya is just too much. Out of curiosity, is the aged bottle any mellower?

[Alchemist]

I just heard a rumor that Noilly will be importing the "European" strength dry vermouth. And they will be bringing Amber vermouth in as well.

Anyone have more info?

Toby