WTN: 1990 Moillard Corton Clos des Vergennes

[Craig Camp]

It seems you are trading a softer, less harshly tannic wine for one missing many of the most delicate aromatics of pinot noir which have surely blown off after hours in the decanter. You are trading texture for aromatics.

Frankly, this has not been my experience at all. The wine in question in this thread, for instance, lost nothing in the way of "the most delicate aromatics." I know, because I sampled it when first decanted, then sipped it over a period of extended time, and it only became more harmonious, both on the nose and the palate. This has been my experience again and again, with both red Burgundy and domestic pinot noir.

You don't like the idea of extended aeration? Fine, don't decant! I'll opt to do otherwise.

Is there no question of losing some of the fruit aromatics?

[geo t.]

No, what I'm saying is I like it the that way so its better for me. I have found over my years of tasting that I'd MUCH prefer to give the wine some time to breath and open, rather than observe the wine's evolution and have it hitting its stride just about the time I'm taking my last sip. Your mileage may vary.

Edited April 23, 2004 by geo t. (log)

[geo t.]

It seems you are trading a softer, less harshly tannic wine for one missing many of the most delicate aromatics of pinot noir which have surely blown off after hours in the decanter. You are trading texture for aromatics.

Frankly, this has not been my experience at all. The wine in question in this thread, for instance, lost nothing in the way of "the most delicate aromatics." I know, because I sampled it when first decanted, then sipped it over a period of extended time, and it only became more harmonious, both on the nose and the palate. This has been my experience again and again, with both red Burgundy and domestic pinot noir.

You don't like the idea of extended aeration? Fine, don't decant! I'll opt to do otherwise.

Is there no question of losing some of the fruit aromatics?

I addressed that question in the message to which you replied.

?!

[Craig Camp]

I believe you responded to "delicate" aromatics. There are many delicate aromatics in wine - fruit being one of them. Fruit is often the first one to go in an older wine. The question I was trying to ask is don't you lose some of the remaining primary fruit aromatics with extending decanting?

[Mark Sommelier]

I tend not to decant red Burgundies since I use large balloon glasses that essentially perform the same function as decanting. I do, on occasion, decant Grand Cru white Burgundies. I am always amused when I open a box of Domaine LeFlaive wine and read the little instruction cards they include. For their Grand Cru whites they recommend cellaring the wine for 7-10 years before drinking, or opening and decanting 3 hours before serving. Decanting red Burgundy is a matter of personal preference. I have tasted very young red Burgundies that were forward and graceful right from the start, and those that are tart and tight. Obviously, the tight wines need some time open to fully enjoy them. Amongst my group of wine drinking friends, a bottle of red Burgundy has almost no chance of making it till tomorrow.

[geo t.]

I believe you responded to "delicate" aromatics. There are many delicate aromatics in wine - fruit being one of them. Fruit is often the first one to go in an older wine. The question I was trying to ask is don't you lose some of the remaining primary fruit aromatics with extending decanting?

I'd like to first respond to your question with specific regard to the wine in this thread, and once again, I'll tell you no, nothing was lost as far as the primary fruit aromatics. It kept getting better and better. In many respects, it behaved like a relatively young wine. I certainly wouldn't give any wine so much air that it loses its fruit or falls apart, but in this specific case, it could have benefited from even more air, IMO.

Now, in a more general sense, I won't argue that one needs to be judicious as to how long to let a wine breath. I wouldn't give a 1952 Domaine Ponnelle Bonnes-Mares too much air at all. Of course, I say that because one tasted a few years back was beautiful right from the get-go, and was only decanted to avoid sediment.

Once again, as Mark points out above, this is all a matter of personal preference. Once again, your mileage may vary.

Edited April 23, 2004 by geo t. (log)

[Craig Camp]

Do you recommend this much breathing both for richer/fruity producers and more acid/tannic producers? Also what about between different communes like Vosne Romanee and Volnay. What styles benefit the most from the most air?

[Mark Sommelier]

Do you recommend this much breathing both for richer/fruity producers and more acid/tannic producers? Also what about between different communes like Vosne Romanee and Volnay. What styles benefit the most from the most air?

Remember the Wine Clip?

[Brad Ballinger]

Well well well. Here we are once again thry to impose absoolutism/legalism into matters of personal taste and preference. Makes one scratch one's head.

[geo t.]

Well well well. Here we are once again thry to impose absoolutism/legalism into matters of personal taste and preference. Makes one scratch one's head.

My thoughts exactly.

[geo t.]

Do you recommend this much breathing both for richer/fruity producers and more acid/tannic producers? Also what about between different communes like Vosne Romanee and Volnay. What styles benefit the most from the most air?

I go by each wine individually. No hard, fast rules, nothing written in stone. Unless I have info or a recommendation from someone, I'll err towards caution and give it an hour or two. Once I've tried something, I'll have a better idea of how I'll proceed in the future. Obviously, tighter, tannic wines need longer.

Edited April 24, 2004 by geo t. (log)

[Redwinger]

I am a newbie on this site, but have been posting on various wine internet sites for close to 10 years (I usually wind up getting banned for inappropriate behavior, so I'm appreciative of being pointed to sites such as this ). I haven't been hanging out here long enough to get a sense of the personality of this on-line community, but I find myself somewhat bewildered by this thread.

I am surprised/stunned that what started out as a favorable tasting note thread on some red Burg has somehow morphed into an almost pedantic discussion of decanting Burgundys. I've never looked upon wine and its' associated trappings, such as decanting, in absolute terms that could be reduced to, or driven, by some formula. If and when that happens, I suspect wine will lose a lot of its' appeal for me.

Heck, if Geo wants to decant it for a week and someone else wants to drink it with a straw, I'm inclined to agree with both positions 100%.

Have a weekend folks.

Redwinger

[Craig Camp]

I don't think this is a discussion about whether it is OK for geo t. to decant wines for as long as he wants - they're his wines and it's his palate so he can put them in a blender if he so chooses. There is no right and wrong when it comes to taste - your own palate is always right for you.

For me I find it interesting that he feels that extended breathing improves a Burgundy and others don't - so I think it is worthwhile to discuss. I don't think anyone is trying to convince him NOT to decant Burgundy. I certainly am not.

Decanting Burgundy is a question that comes up again and again and I think expanded explanations on the subject by someone like geo t. who obviously has an educated palate enlightening, educational and interesting. In a discussion contrary points and questions bring out more information and points to be considered. Debates are not very interesting or educational when everyone is on the same side.

[geo t.]

I'd just like to say once again, that the wine was really good.

Edited April 24, 2004 by geo t. (log)

[Redwinger]

I don't think this is a discussion about whether it is OK for geo t. to decant wines for as long as he wants - they're his wines and it's his palate so he can put them in a blender if he so chooses. There is no right and wrong when it comes to taste - your own palate is always right for you.

For me I find it interesting that he feels that extended breathing improves a Burgundy and others don't - so I think it is worthwhile to discuss. I don't think anyone is trying to convince him NOT to decant Burgundy. I certainly am not.

Decanting Burgundy is a question that comes up again and again and I think expanded explanations on the subject by someone like geo t. who obviously has an educated palate enlightening, educational and interesting. In a discussion contrary points and questions bring out more information and points to be considered. Debates are not very interesting or educational when everyone is on the same side.

I agree with what you've just said, Craig. However, I think the "debate" ended someplace on page 1. Your position has been well stated that you don't believe in decanting older Burgs based upon your experiences and the experiences of others who have palates you trust. Fine.

The original poster believed the particular wine in question benefitted from some time in the decanter. I also believe he responded adequately to each question posed. It appears to me the debate is ended and everyone is comfortable with their position and I doubt either "side" would be persuaded by any amount of empirical evidence, which fortunately doesn't exist.

Redwinger

[Rebel Rose]

Amongst my group of wine drinking friends, a bottle of red Burgundy has almost no chance of making it till tomorrow.

My experience as well. Generally I've learned that if I'm going to get to taste it at all, I should grab some before the rush and let it air in the glass, but on a few occasions, I've noticed something interesting about open Burgundies--some will improve, and improve, and then suddenly hit a downward slide and turn to sawdust.

I like to wait a little while just to see what will happen with the wine, because sometimes it improves and often, as has been pointed out, they can be just a little tight at first. I like a stinky aroma and Burgundies sometimes taste a little overly mineral to me when they're first opened. I always have a problem with my glass being kidnapped, however, so I never get to wait very long.

[Scott]

I believe you responded to "delicate" aromatics. There are many delicate aromatics in wine - fruit being one of them. Fruit is often the first one to go in an older wine. The question I was trying to ask is don't you lose some of the remaining primary fruit aromatics with extending decanting?

Craig,

this is of course correct, you lose primary aromatics the longer it is exposed to air.

how long is too long, well that depends...

You also certainly lose the crisp snap as the fruit loses it's vibrancy, which is one of the things I think burgundy is all about.

==========

I think the debate began thus,

"8 hours for a middling grade 90 burg is too long"

"No it's not, some need up to 24 hours"

personal preference and moderation developed later on.

For me, and the literally hundreds of burg's I taste each year the former statement ties more closely with my experience and understanding of conventional wisdom.

Edited April 26, 2004 by Scott (log)