WTN: 1990 Moillard Corton Clos des Vergennes

[geo t.]

1990 Moillard Corton Clos des Vergennes Grand Cru, 11.5 – 13.5% alc.: A somewhat rusty ruby garnet, this is showing black cherry, plum, smoke and mineral character, with just a whiff of heat on the nose. Concentrated and intense, the medium full bodied flavors carry through beautifully, with a good dose of tannins and acidity. At first I thought I might have opened it too early (despite four or five hours in a decanter), but in the glass, it just keeps opening and opening, becoming more and more harmonious, while gaining nuances of forest floor and decaying vegetation along the way. Give this emphatic wine eight hours in a decanter before pouring a glass, and it won’t disappoint, but it has the stuffing to improve for at least another five years.

Imported by Vin Fins Import Marketing Co., Long Island City, NY

Reporting from Day-twah,

geo t.

[Mark Sommelier]

Moillard has always been a third rate negoce. No Burgundy needs 8 hours breathing to show off, let alone one that is 14 years old. Hope you didn't pay a lot for it.

[balex]

My burgundy nut friends all agree that most of the 90 Grand Crus aren't ready -- this was after a Clive Coates horizontal tasting last year. (unfortunately I didn't go). So a few hours in the decanter could be appropriate.

[Scott]

Moillard has always been a third rate negoce. No Burgundy needs 8 hours breathing to show off, let alone one that is 14 years old. Hope you didn't pay a lot for it.

agree 100%

[geo t.]

No Burgundy needs 8 hours breathing to show off, let alone one that is 14 years old.

Disagree strongly. They can need as much as 24 hours of air before opening up when they're not yet fully mature.

[LOS]

No Burgundy needs 8 hours breathing to show off, let alone one that is 14 years old.

Disagree strongly. They can need as much as 24 hours of air before opening up when they're not yet fully mature.

Gotta agree with Geo here. Last week I had a 99 Fontaine-Gagnard Chassagne (rouge) 1er cru "Clos St Jean" that showed totally flat the first night, even after about 6 hours of air. Left it open on the counter overnight; the next day it was wonderful. This is hardly an isolated incident. Young Burgundy regularly needs air time to show well; 8 hours is not uncommon at all.

[Scott]

No Burgundy needs 8 hours breathing to show off, let alone one that is 14 years old.

Disagree strongly. They can need as much as 24 hours of air before opening up when they're not yet fully mature.

That's insane, a sure fire way to destroy a good wine.

I should correct that, and say that it's one thing to observe how a wine develops over time and another entirely to suggest a wine 'needs' such a long time to breathe.

Edited April 22, 2004 by Scott (log)

[Redwinger]

No Burgundy needs 8 hours breathing to show off, let alone one that is 14 years old.

Disagree strongly. They can need as much as 24 hours of air before opening up when they're not yet fully mature.

That's insane, a sure fire way to destroy a good wine.

I should correct that, and say that it's one thing to observe how a wine develops over time and another entirely to suggest a wine 'needs' such a long time to breathe.

Scott,

I agree with you 100%. I can vouch that Geo t is quite insane. In fact, it is one of his most endearing qualities.

Redwinger

[Brad Ballinger]

I'm also going to chime in here in support of George and Lee. A while back I had the 1996 Corton Clos de Roi and it was tighter than a drum over four hours that it was opened. I will add, however, that I'm surprised that such a ripe vintage as 1990 resulted in a wine that today needs extended time to show itself. But it could be a hallmark of this negociant (although I confess to not having had enough of Thomas-Moillard's wines to back up that statement).

It could also go to show that most of us will never understand or figure out Burgundy.

Edited to put the very small, but very significant, hyphen between Thomas and Moillard (which helps support Lees' point below and also helps further demonstrate my ignorance and I should just shut my piehole when it comes to Burgundy )

Edited April 22, 2004 by Brad Ballinger (log)

[LOS]

Brad, I'm pretty sure that the Clos du Roi you had came from the grower side of the house, not the negoce side. The wines from domaine-owned vines are reputed to be of a higher standard than the negoce wines.

[geo t.]

That's insane, a sure fire way to destroy a good wine.

I should correct that, and say that it's one thing to observe how a wine develops over time and another entirely to suggest a wine 'needs' such a long time to breathe.

Well, if the wine keeps drinking better and better over such a long period of time, then it obviously "needs" that amount of time to open up.

Believe whatever you want. I'm comfortable with my position on this matter, based not only on quite a bit of personal experience, but also on that of others who've reported similar findings.

[geo t.]

I agree with you 100%. I can vouch that Geo t is quite insane. In fact, it is one of his most endearing qualities.

Thank you. Thank you very mudge.

[Scott]

That's insane, a sure fire way to destroy a good wine.

I should correct that, and say that it's one thing to observe how a wine develops over time and another entirely to suggest a wine 'needs' such a long time to breathe.

Well, if the wine keeps drinking better and better over such a long period of time, then it obviously "needs" that amount of time to open up.

Believe whatever you want. I'm comfortable with my position on this matter, based not only on quite a bit of personal experience, but also on that of others who've reported similar findings.

do tell?

[Craig Camp]

For me these extended breathing times for a white Burgundy seem extreme and unnecessary. What is the theory here? Can anyone come up with supportive comments from winemakers or established Burgundy experts that would recommend such an activity or why it may improve the wine. The necessary oxidative process has already occurred in barrel and bottle for such a wine. I have been to Burgundy many times and they don't decant their reds much less their whites. To just make such a claim without historical support from established experts seems nothing more than hearsay evidence.

[LOS]

So he who has the biggest credentials wins? That's such a ludicrous argument that I don't know where to start.

EDITED to add: Did you even pay attention, Craig?? No one here is talking about white burgundy. That's a whole 'nother discussion -- but one I'd be plenty happy to get in to.

Edited April 23, 2004 by LOS (log)

[Craig Camp]

MY mistake on white. But I still wonder for red? Who in Burgundy recommends extended breathing for reds?

[geo t.]

For me these extended breathing times for a white Burgundy seem extreme and unnecessary. What is the theory here? Can anyone come up with supportive comments from winemakers or established Burgundy experts that would recommend such an activity or why it may improve the wine. The necessary oxidative process has already occurred in barrel and bottle for such a wine. I have been to Burgundy many times and they don't decant their reds much less their whites. To just make such a claim is without historical support from established experts seems nothing more than hearsay evidence.

Uh, Craig, we're talking about a red Burgundy here, not a white.

As for "historical support from established experts," I could care less. All I'm telling you is what works for me and for a lot of very knowledgeable wine enthusiasts for whom I have a great deal of respect, including a couple of gents taking part in this very discussion.

If people want to drink tight, hard wines poured straight from the bottle that would actually benifit from some air to open, fine. I'll opt for the other route.

[LOS]

So he who has the biggest credentials wins?  That's such a ludicrous argument that I don't know where to start.

You miss the point. I am looking for supporting evidence. Without support is is just personal preference - not that there is anything wrong with that.

Why does white Burgundy taste better with extended decanting? It is a reasonable question.

As for supporting evidence, you and I both have seen hundreds of TNs on the net that support this. It is also common in burgundy cellars that all of the wines you taste from bottle have been open for days. The vignerons don't write books on this or post TNs, but they do it all the time. They also occasionally pop open a bottle and let you taste it immediately -- but IME this is less common.

Switching to the white burgundy question -- why some white Burgundies need extended decanting to show well -- I have no idea. I can only vouch that they do. Each of the last 9 vintages, I have tested the quality of the Chablis vintage by buying a bottle of R&V Dauvissat La Forest and drinking it over 3 or 4 days (left open with no cork). In only the weakest vintages does the wine show much at all on the first day, even after 4-6 hours. Why? I don't know.

[Craig Camp]

Yes I understand apologies for going too fast. That what happens when you read fast without your glasses on at my advanced age. Once again sorry for the distraction.

However, everyone one I have ever talked to in Burgundy would claim that you miss many of the delicate aromatics of pinot noir (or chardonnay for that matter) with extended decanting.

It seems you are trading a softer, less harshly tannic wine for one missing many of the most delicate aromatics of pinot noir which have surely blown off after hours in the decanter. You are trading texture for aromatics.

[Craig Camp]

It is also common in burgundy cellars that all of the wines you taste from bottle have been open for days.  The vignerons don't write books on this or post TNs, but they do it all the time.  They also occasionally pop open a bottle and let you taste it immediately -- but IME this is less common. 

I would have to say that I have rarely been presented a bottle in Burgundy that was not opened in front of me and when it has happened the grower will usually present it with a warning - oh this was opened yesterday.

[geo t.]

It seems you are trading a softer, less harshly tannic wine for one missing many of the most delicate aromatics of pinot noir which have surely blown off after hours in the decanter. You are trading texture for aromatics.

Frankly, this has not been my experience at all. The wine in question in this thread, for instance, lost nothing in the way of "the most delicate aromatics." I know, because I sampled it when first decanted, then sipped it over a period of extended time, and it only became more harmonious, both on the nose and the palate. This has been my experience again and again, with both red Burgundy and domestic pinot noir.

You don't like the idea of extended aeration? Fine, don't decant! I'll opt to do otherwise.

[Craig Camp]

I am not trying to take the position that it is wrong to decant Burgundy. That is a case of personal preference. My question would be is why is there such a substantial record of statements suggesting not to decant red Burgundy? Certainly this would be considered the "conventional" wisdom on the topic. There is no doubt that it changes the wine to expose it to air for extended periods - the question - and I hope a reasonable matter for debate is why it should or should not be done. It seems to me you are taking a distinctive approach and just saying "I like it the that way so its better" is not helpful to the debate. While it is conventional wisdom not to decant Burgundy that does not make it correct. However, for me I have found over my years of tasting that I prefer being exposed to every aspect of the wines evolution once it has been open. Nothing grows and changes in the glass like pinot noir. Do you give up part of the evolution by decanting for hours and hours before you experience the wine? I think this is a real question.

I would like Mark Sommelier to join in here as I am sure he pulls the corks on more Burgundy bottles than all of us put together - and I am sure some of the bottles don't get finished so he gets to taste many wines at different moments of their evolution after opening.

Like most things in wine I don't believe there is an absolute here for anything but an absolutely interesting conversation.

[LOS]

It is also common in burgundy cellars that all of the wines you taste from bottle have been open for days.  The vignerons don't write books on this or post TNs, but they do it all the time.  They also occasionally pop open a bottle and let you taste it immediately -- but IME this is less common. 

I would have to say that I have rarely been presented a bottle in Burgundy that was not opened in front of me and when it has happened the grower will usually present it with a warning - oh this was opened yesterday.

All I can say is that this directly contradicts my nontrivial experience. Maybe it's a matter of where we taste; this may vary from cellar to cellar. I may tend to like the wines from cellars where the wines show best with more air. FYI, My deepest experience is with G. Mugneret and Chandon de Brailles. We typically taste more wine from bottles at CdB -- because they've always got bottles sitting around open. I often taste there in January and even offseason there are always several half-empty bottles open that were certainly not opened that day. IME this is not unusual at all.

Probably my best tasting ever was the first time I tasted at Dauvissat. We tasted from barrel, and then tasted a lineup of 8 or 10 wines from bottle. This was when the 98s were in barrel. All of the bottles we tasted had been open at least 3 weeks. They were stunning.

I've also got to agree with George that you are not giving up aromatics for mouthfeel. If anything, I think young wines need extended airing to develop their aromatics. This is sometimes at the expense of texture. For an older wine, the tradeoff is probably different, and I think I agree with you there. But we don't know how youthful this bottle really is. My experience with 1990 burgundy is not extensive; I haven't loved those I've tried. Some of my knowledgable friends tell me I'll like them if I just wait longer on them. We'll see.

I also do not typically decant my wines for extended airing; I do that in bottle. I agree with those who think that 8 hours in the decanter sounds like too much for a 14-year-old burgundy of less than top-notch pedigree. But we didn't taste the wine -- and Corton is known for wines that age well.

[LOS]

It seems to me you are taking a distinctive approach and just saying "I like it the that way so its better" is not helpful to the debate.

...and coming out with guns blazing saying "you're just wrong" is helpful? [You haven't done this, Craig, but that's how the debate got started and how the tone of the debate got set]

While it is conventional wisdom not to decant Burgundy that does not make it correct.

Conventional wisdom where? Certainly at restaurants in Burgundy and among the fine food community in France; no dispute there. The vignerons are, at best, more of a mixed bag. The Burgundy community here in town (and, from what I know of it, in the US at large) would largely consider it heresy not to decant Burgundy in many cases.

[Craig Camp]

It seems to me you are taking a distinctive approach and just saying "I like it the that way so its better" is not helpful to the debate.

...and coming out with guns blazing saying "you're just wrong" is helpful? [You haven't done this, Craig, but that's how the debate got started and how the tone of the debate got set]

While it is conventional wisdom not to decant Burgundy that does not make it correct.

Conventional wisdom where? Certainly at restaurants in Burgundy and among the fine food community in France; no dispute there. The vignerons are, at best, more of a mixed bag. The Burgundy community here in town (and, from what I know of it, in the US at large) would largely consider it heresy not to decant Burgundy in many cases.

I sincerely apologize if I seem to have "come out with guns blazing" as this was not my intention. However the question of if it is better to decant or not to decant Burgundy is a real question. Over decades I have been told repeatedly by people I respect not to decant Burgundy - especially older Burgundy.

I do not mean in any regard to be harsh, but I would like to inspire some rational and substantiated debate on the matter.

I will not pretend to know the real answer, but only offer my opinion based on what I have learned to appreciate in Burgundy over the years.