Grappa Blauburgunder

[badthings]

My lovely ragazza just returned from florence with a bottle of grappa "Blauburgunder." Can this be pinot nero?

the grappa is from Kastelbell in Alto Adige -- the label is in german and italian. it says things like:

weingut Unterortl az. ag.

von Reinhold Messner

Erzeuger Familien Aurich

seems like a lot of people were involved.

The brand is Castel Juval. It is delicious -- smooth and fragrant and uncooked, but with a nice harsh edge to remind you that you are in fact drinking grappa. There is a complicated story about why she brought back german grappa from Tuscany.

[Craig Camp]

In Alto Adige the primary language is German. Hence your blauburgunder grappa, which is indeed pinot nero. Because there are so many German speaking tourists who visit this beautiful place (and because the locals speak German as their everyday language) it is not unusual to see wine labels, grappa labels and menus only in German.

As popular as grappa from white varietals has become - grappa from red varietals for me has more complexity. Grapes from these cool regions make the best grappa.

The people of Alto Adige are Italian only because of war and politics. Their heart and souls are Austrian.

[badthings]

I'd seen German wines (from germany( called weissburgunder, so that was how I guessed, but it seemed odd that noir/nero turned blue. All the A.A. wines I've seen in the US are labelled in italian, but it makes sense that grappa is a different story.

Which reminds me, though I should probably post this in the wine forum, that I've had two fascinating wines from Alto Adige recently:

a moscato giallo aka goldmuskateller, bone dry but with a wonderful fragrance not unlike dessert muscat;

moscato rosso desert wine called (according to the guy I bought it from) rosso not because of the red color but because of the fragrace of rose petal. I'm dubious about this, though it does indeed have an astonishing rose nose. This was a remarkable wine. Come to think of it it was trentino, not AA though.

I have yet to find a AA wine that doesn't offer something wonderful and interesting at its price point (which seems to be lower than comparable wines from Friuli).

[slkinsey]

The people of Alto Adige are Italian only because of war and politics. Their heart and souls are Austrian.

I have a map of Italy from ~1610. Very interesting -- especially up in the North.

Of course, most of Italy hasn't been "Italy" for all that long.

[KatieLoeb]

The people of Alto Adige are Italian only because of war and politics. Their heart and souls are Austrian.

That'd be SudTyrol to you and me...

:Imagine Leiderhosen bedecked smiley:

Or this guy

[KatieLoeb]

On a more serious note:

In German ----> Blau = Black; Burgunder=from Burgundy

hence: Black grape of Burgundy = Pinot Noir/Pinot Nero

Weiss = White; Burgunder=from Burgundy

hence: White grape of Burgundy = Weissburgunder = Pinot Blanc???

Hey wait a minute!

Yes - this IS confusing. Chardonnay was once thought to be part of the Pinot family of grapes. Advanced oeno-science has proven this untrue, however a lot of what's called "Pinot Blanc" in Australia is actually Chardonnay.

Go figure. It's enough to make a wine geek a little nuts...or at least need a drink!

[badthings]

Katie, my German is terrible to non-existant, but I do know that blau = blue. schwartz is black. of course, whether pinot noir is more bluish than blackish is another question entirely.

Perhaps my confusion was heightened by thinking that weissburgunder "is" chardonnay, or at least what they call chard. in Deutschland. But you are saying, if I understand, that it's actually pinot blanc?

Wait -- maybe it's aligoté!

Back to grappa though: how do they make these fancy italian grappas nowadays? By which I mean to ask, are they still just distilling the pomace, or are they throwing some real wine in there too, or are they using all wine? Germain-Robin, the great distiller in Mendocino, makes a big deal about using real wine to make their grappas, but my reaction to that is: but then it isn't grappa anymore, it's eau de vie. Or am I being naive and or stupid?

[bobsdf]

Not that it's significant to the quality of the drink but, as a climber, I found it interesting that the maker of the grappa you have is Reinhold Messner. Messner For those of you unfamiliar with mountaineering, he is an icon of the sport, and a huge celebrity in the

Alto Adige and beyond. Castel Juval, his home, is a partially refurbished castle (I guess that's obvious from the name). It is open to visitors in the summer and though I've not been I have read that it is quite impressive. Juval and Juval2 I think I've read that he is involved in farming locally, obviously the grappa would be an offshoot of that.

One of the nicest things about climbing in the Dolomites has to be the food. The food I've had at the Italien huts is far better than that which I've had in the Swiss or French huts. No small thing after a long day of climbing. And then you have your rest/travel days when you get a chance to have a "real" meal down in one of the towns.

Anyway, enjoy the grappa.

[KatieLoeb]

Katie, my German is terrible to non-existant, but I do know that blau = blue. schwartz is black. of course, whether pinot noir is more bluish than blackish is another question entirely.

Quite right. Momentary lapse of German fluency (please note I have very little to start) and I stand corrected. Thank you.

Weissburgunder is Pinot Blanc. No logic that follows the pattern of the other translation.

I'm not sure I'm following the logic of your "grappa vs. eua-de-vie" comparison. All grappa is made from grapes, hence fruit, so why is it grappa and NOT eau de vie? Does eau de vie (or schnapps if you're in Germany/Austria) have to be distilled with the fruits or nuts or herbs or whatever in addition to the pomace? Or is it just the distillate of the fruits themselves? I honestly don't know the distinction so I'll look into it and report back on my findings.

[Adam Balic]

Yes - this IS confusing.  Chardonnay was once thought to be part of the Pinot family of grapes.  Advanced oeno-science has proven this untrue, however a lot of what's called "Pinot Blanc" in Australia is actually Chardonnay.

Go figure.    It's enough to make a wine geek a little nuts...or at least need a drink! 

Actually Carole Meredith et al. has demostrated that Chardonnay is a cross between a Pinot variety and Gouais blanc.

In Australia when the first wave of Chardonnay was introduced it was sometimes called "Pinot Chardonnay" (as it was called in France not that long ago) as it was thought to be a type of Pinot Blanc.

However, that is ancient history (or the 1970's at least). I can't recall ever seen a bottle in Australia labeled as "Pinot Blanc". Unless it was inported from Alsace.

[Craig Camp]

All grappa is made from grapes, hence fruit, so why is it grappa and NOT eau de vie?

Grappa is not made from the whole grapes, but from the pomace (skins, seeds and whatever residual juice there is after pressing the grapes for wine). No water is allowed to be added so this is a very difficult process. In France they call it marc.

There are many grape distillates in Italy that many think are grappa because the look and taste so similar, but they are not grappa. Leading examples of these would be Nonino's Ue' and Maschio's Prima Uve. These are in fact acquavite d'uva (grapes). It general they have a more delicate and fruity taste than grappa.

The best grappas are very complex and layered. The difficult process of distilling solids can create an ultra-concentration of flavors that acquavite d'uva does not reach. To me the most complex grappa comes from red varieties as the time the skins ferment with the juice add additional complex flavors.

[Adam Balic]

I have recently been given some "Mosta" which is an acquavite d'uva. Craig is right it is much more delicate then the grappa I have, even though the alcohol % is similar (except for some of the homemade grappa I have).

[badthings]

Craig (and others) -- is there any legal status to the distinction in Italy? I mean, do you get in trouble if you throw some juice in with the pomace and then call it grappa? Because that is what some of the California distillers appear to do:

Cheap grappa is made by adding sugar and water to pomace. A few of the best, including ours, are made from whole grapes.

By that definition, as I said before, that sounds like brandy to me, not grappa.

Mr. Messner's Blauburgunder is amazingly delicate and perfumy, considering there are no such additions.

I wonder, are these fancy grappas made with normal pomace left over from winemaking, or do the press it a lot more gently?

The French marcs I've had have a sugar-added caramalized taste to it. I mean, it's brown. Are they all like this?

[Craig Camp]

Craig (and others) -- is there any legal status to the distinction in Italy? I mean, do you get in trouble if you throw some juice in with the pomace and then call it grappa? Because that is what some of the California distillers appear to do:

Cheap grappa is made by adding sugar and water to pomace. A few of the best, including ours, are made from whole grapes.

By that definition, as I said before, that sounds like brandy to me, not grappa.

Mr. Messner's Blauburgunder is amazingly delicate and perfumy, considering there are no such additions.

I wonder, are these fancy grappas made with normal pomace left over from winemaking, or do the press it a lot more gently?

The French marcs I've had have a sugar-added caramalized taste to it. I mean, it's brown. Are they all like this?

What they do in Italy and California have little to do with each other. It is unbelievably controlled in Italy.

Brandy is made from wine. So yes, acquavite d'Uva is in fact a brandy. In Italy the term brandy is reserved for aged products.

If it is made from whole grapes it is not grappa.

Adding water to the skins to make grappa is illegal in Italy.

Marc is brown because it is aged in barrels - like Cognac and Armagnac.

Mr. Messner's grappa is delicate because he did things the right way. Not an easy choice to make as it is very expensive and time consuming.

When you see the skins ready to be distilled you see very little juice.

[menton1]

Actually, there was a show on Thirsty Traveler on Fine Living Network devoted to grappa. Even though I find the host of the show obnoxious, this piece was very interesting and informative. The Grappa producers he showed just used the skins, seeds and stems after the grapes were pressed for wine--

I think it will be shown again on Fine Living-- look up fineliving.com, check the "Thirsty Traveler" show for broadcast times.

[bobsdf]

Menton, I saw that show as well and found quite informative. Interesting how the Gov't locks up the aging grappa and only releases it once the duty is paid by the producer. They do have to get a new host though, that guy is beyond irritating!

[badthings]

Thank you all for answering every question I could come up with on this grappa.

Just to make things more interesting, Michael Franz calls Pinot Noir Spatburgunder in today's Washington Post.

Also, for posterity's sake, I should be clear that I believe the California "grappas" are probably excellent products -- I was just trying to determine the legal status In Italy of the difference between grappa and eaux-de-vie/acquavite. Obviously no such distinction is enforced here.

[Craig Camp]

Thank you all for answering every question I could come up with on this grappa.

Just to make things more interesting, Michael Franz calls Pinot Noir Spatburgunder in today's Washington Post.

Also, for posterity's sake, I should be clear that I believe the California "grappas" are probably excellent products -- I was just trying to determine the legal status In Italy of the difference between grappa and eaux-de-vie/acquavite. Obviously no such distinction is enforced here.

Spatburgunder is just another German name for pinot noir.

What is up with this column? Last he was spreading misinformaton about pinot grigio and now this about Burgundy:

So why don't I just say this at the outset and avoid all the back and forth? Because (as I wrote here two weeks ago regarding Pinot Gris and Grigio) every wine has its limitations, and red Burgundy has a serious one: The good ones are almost always painfully expensive and the affordable ones are almost always painfully bad.

...oveproduced, hot-climate pinot noir - yummy.

Basically, you'll need to look outside of Burgundy to sunnier, warmer regions where the grapes can be ripened reliably at higher yield levels.

[Craig Camp]

Also, for posterity's sake, I should be clear that I believe the California "grappas" are probably excellent products -- I was just trying to determine the legal status In Italy of the difference between grappa and eaux-de-vie/acquavite. Obviously no such distinction is enforced here.

I'll say it. Italian grappa needs to worry about California grappa like Cognac has to worry about California brandy.

[badthings]

Now Craig, your palate is much more sophisticated than mine, and your experience far vaster, but there are in fact some pinots out here in Cali (and Oregon) that aren't total shit. The Saintsbury Carneros is the only one I can remember, since I don't normally bother with this kind of stuff. It's not a great wine of course, but it tastes a lot better than an ordinary bourgogne rouge at that price. In the guy's defense, although we all agree (I assume) that pinot's not even worth the bother until you start dropping serious ducats, I imagine that article becomes a tough sell to the Post's food editor after a while.

I'll say it. Italian grappa needs to worry about California grappa like Cognac has to worry about California brandy.

That's not the point. It's not like they're starting a price war in a huge market or anything. I believe, naively, that a word should mean what it says, and I wish that that they would just call their "grappas" what they are (whatever that is), but they are pretty damn good drinking. (I have refrained from judgement on this because I was given a sample [of the Germain-Robin merlot (I think) "grappa"] at a restaurant after my Calvados, so I was not in a position to taste much). And for those of you who like congac, I think you'll find the Germain-Robin alambic brandies a pleasant surprise. They are made by Hubert Germain-Robin, who came west after his family sold their congnac house to Martell... blah, blah blah -- you can read their spiel here. I'm not pushing their product, except insofar as I think it's well made, but I want people to realize that we're not just talking about E&J here.

That is the longest defense (if you can call it that) of new world alcohol vis-a-vis the old that you will ever get out of me.

[Craig Camp]

but there are in fact some pinots out here in Cali (and Oregon) that aren't total shit. The Saintsbury Carneros is the only one I can remember, since I don't normally bother with this kind of stuff. It's not a great wine of course, but it tastes a lot better than an ordinary bourgogne rouge at that price. In the guy's defense, although we all agree (I assume) that pinot's not even worth the bother until you start dropping serious ducats, I imagine that article becomes a tough sell to the Post's food editor after a while.

I'll say it. Italian grappa needs to worry about California grappa like Cognac has to worry about California brandy.

That's not the point. It's not like they're starting a price war in a huge market or anything. I believe, naively, that a word should mean what it says, and I wish that that they would just call their "grappas" what they are (whatever that is), but they are pretty damn good drinking. (I have refrained from judgement on this because I was given a sample [of the Germain-Robin merlot (I think) "grappa"] at a restaurant after my Calvados, so I was not in a position to taste much). And for those of you who like congac, I think you'll find the Germain-Robin alambic brandies a pleasant surprise. They are made by Hubert Germain-Robin, who came west after his family sold their congnac house to Martell... blah, blah blah -- you can read their spiel here. I'm not pushing their product, except insofar as I think it's well made, but I want people to realize that we're not just talking about E&J here.

That is the longest defense (if you can call it that) of new world alcohol vis-a-vis the old that you will ever get out of me.

1. I agree. There are many great West Coast pinots that come to mind - Calera, Saintsbury, Sanford, Archery Summit among others

2. I disagree that they taste better than quite a few Borgogne rouge at the same price. There is a long list of excellent Borgogne rouge under $25 click here for more

3. While I have had pleasant brandy and grappa from the USA - I have never tasted one that approached the depth of good cognac or the elegance of great grappa.

[badthings]

Chron:

Grappa's birthplace was Italy, but its popularity has led vintners in other countries, such as the United States and South Africa, to begin producing their own versions. The question is: Can any country except Italy make authentic grappa?

The head of Italy's National Grappa Institute insists it's "an exclusively Italian product," due to the grapes used, the technique, "the philosophy." The South African Grappa Producers Association chief calls it just another generic term: "What about pizza? Where do you draw the line?"

Where indeed? On the other hand, the argument that you should be able to call one thing something it's not because of the impoverishment of your own language is a little specious. But grappa, unlike cognac, has no real geographical meaning (except insofar as it's an italian word).

Here's the link to the Istituto Nazionale Grappa that is mangled in the Chron story.

EDIT: definitely follow that link. great combination of useful and laughable information:

Who invented grappa?

The Italian people! Grappa, as a spirit, was conceived in the context of the medical school of Salerno, where, around the year 1000 AD, the rules of the concentration of alcohol through distillation were codified and its use was recommended to cure various human ailments. Thus distillates were granted a long lasting success. Grape marc, alcohol-producing raw material, which was poor - as against wine, for example, it contains two thirds less alcohol - but quite widespread, was taken immediately into consideration and its spirit was known already in 1400. The earliest evidence of studies on the distillation of grape marc, though, dates back to 1600 and comes from the Jesuits, among which Francesco Terzi Lana, from Brescia. However, there is no clear-cut technological distinction among alcoholic distillates before the beginning of the 19th century, when the Italy of grappa went its own way and achieved the creation of a drink with unique and unrepeatable features.

The reference to Salerno is particularly amusing.

Edited November 17, 2003 by badthings (log)