Oliveto

[badthings]

I went to the special Edmonds St. John tasting on Friday, in a terrible mood because I couldn't taste the wines because of some fleeting malignant cold/sinus thing (see the wine thread).

The typically terrible service didn't help things either. We had to wait for 20 minutes, had our prix fixe courses brought out of order, with the wrong wines, and were subjected to numerous other minor annoyances. The whole thing took 3 hours. These may sound minor, but when you charge prices significantly higher than your competitors for food that is not noticeably better, I expect good service at least. Every time I go I get the same half-assed vibe.

That said, the 5-course prix fixe was a relatively good deal at $55. As noted, my palate was in pretty pathetic shape, but for the sake of completeness:

Duck Prosciutto with Summer melon

proscuitto not as good as usual (off-tasting, over-preserved?), melon was spectacular -- and did NOT go with the Viognier -- even my diminished palette rebelled. Needed a prosecco.

Grilled Spiedino of Mediterranean mussels, fennel, and Italian bacon

Holy shit, this was good. This is why Bertolli's famous.

Spelt pasta with Roast Pigeon

Yum. Really good pasta. Pigeon was a little gamy, I thought, but my slightly squeamish girlfriend had no reservations at all.

Braised Shortrib, carrots

superb. Is it possible to make bad braised shortribs?

American and Italian Artisan cheeses

Kind of a weak pecorino toscano, a very good robiola, and an eye-opening Blu del Moncenisio -- probably the first thing, aside from that melon, that I could really taste all night.

Obviously, my impressions were altered unfavorably by the harried waitress and my inability to taste the wines, but they were confirmed by my earlier experiences there. Is it just me? Or is this place a little too big for its britches? I mean laurels.

[marie-louise]

I thought it was just me! I've been there twice since Paul Bertolli's owned it, the last time must have been five years ago. I only live a few minutes away, but never have any desire to eat there. I don't know why, the place just doesn't appeal. If the service was bad, I don't remember it, but if it's true, then I bet that's a big part of the reason it doesn't appeal. I really don't mind if a waiter makes mistakes, or forgets things and has to be asked again, as long as I get even an inkling that they give as shit as to whether or not I am enjoying my dinner. An acknowledgement of the mistake and a simple "I'm sorry about that" is all that I need to make it all okay.

[badthings]

Yeah, I mean, the waitress was obviously harried because she was serving the special prix fixe menu, which had to be sync-ed to the wine menu, on top of the regular a la carte menu -- but shouldn't they have figured that out before they got started? For that money, I say so. I've also had terrible service at another place in your 'hood: Citron. But that was years ago.

Glad someone knows what I'm talking about.

[Hest88]

We had a horrible experience at Oliveto a few years ago that almost made us vow never to return. (Actually, I vowed never to return, but the Whole Pig festival lured us back, plus the fact that my husband convinced me to give our first date restaurant one more chance.)

We'd ordered a bottle of my favorite Navarro grape juice, but the waitress brought a glass instead. I was puzzled, but thought that maybe she didn't want to carry my husband's drink and the bottle and the same time. In hind sight I probably shouldn't have started sipping, but "bottle" and "glass" sound so different that it didn't occur to me that she could have made a mistake. We flagged her down and explained we had asked for a bottle.

Sure enough, when the bill arrived, we were charged for a bottle and a glass. We politely protested, but the waitress got very defensive immediately and insisted that since we had had both a bottle and a glass we should pay for it. We asked to speak to the maitre d'. When he came over, he was very condescending and rude. (Okay, *I* may look like I'm twelve sometimes, but my husband doesn't and we were both dressed well for our anniversary.) We explained, again, that since we felt it was the waiter's mistake, we didn't feel we should be charged for it. After a lot of back and forth, he finally agreed to take the glass off the bill, but gave us a very rude look when we left.

Now, I understand we drank the glass, but for a restaurant with a national reputation I really expect better customer service. I've been to plenty of less renowned restaurants who will give a customer a glass of wine if they've had to wait too long or if a mistake as been made (Cafe Kati is my fondest example). This was hardly a $100 bottle of wine; this was a bottle of grape juice. They felt they had to be belligerent and belittling over a $6 glass of grape juice on a $100 tab, instead of offering a goodwill gesture.

Funny thing was, as we were paying the bill, a group of Texans came up to us and said, "Were you complaining to the maitre d'? Good for you! We've never had such horrible service in our lives!" (One of the women also asked me if I was Japanese because her "daugher-in-law--the sweetest thing--is Japanese." ;))

Last year, they did redeem themselves at the Whole Hog Festival. We watched as a waiter called Citron for a table on behalf of a party that hadn't realized it was all-pork night. My husband and I kept wondering where that waiter was the night we had our encounter. I don't think it's the same maitre d' either.

[jschyun]

Sometimes you have to get hold of the owner (even if it's a corporation) and get these people reprimanded, or better yet, fired. If the owner accepts the behavior or fires back at you, I would never patronize that restaurant again. Does this sound too harsh? Let me ask you this: Why should you subsidize someone who is not doing his/her job? The waiter is there to help you, and most do a decent job of it. It's too bad that some people think they are too good for their job, but don't do anything about it (like leave, so someone else can take their place)

Also, I agree that being nickel and dimed to death, especially when the final bill is larger than, say, $100, is stupid on the part of the restaurant. Do they expect us to recommend such a place to our family and friends?

I have had some of the worst service at the most expensive restaurants. I also look like a teenager, despite being in my thirties. It's a mixed blessing. I've been ignored or given the once over and then ignored by many a hostess at independent as well as some high end chain restaurants. Our table has been ignored for an hour before someone comes by, unless one of us physically gets up and hunts down a waiter/busperson. If I'm paying big money (more than $50 a person), I complain. If it's a chain, or even if it's not, I find out what the email address or number is and I call or email. Actually, I once got a $50 gift certificate for reporting bad service at a Ruth's Chris house. I deserved it; the service was careless and for the most part absent. It was supposed to be a special dinner for my boyfriend and me. Normally I have great service at Ruth's Chris, this was a huge exception.

Also, I'm Korean and I get the worst service in Korean restaurants, because my Korean speaking skills are poor. Of course, if I'm with someone who has good Korean speaking skills, we all get great service. I resent this. I actually think non-Asians get better service at Korean restaurants than I do because they aren't expected to be fluent in Korean.

The best service I ever got was at a $100 for one (me) lunch at Stars Restaurant (defunct) in SF. I was eating so many things, the waiters kept saying "You're reviewing us, right?". I kept saying no, I'm just treating myself, but they didn't believe me. Oh yes, I had some great service that day.

--edited for grammar and more venting

Edited August 27, 2003 by jschyun (log)

[essvee]

I have never had the level of service there that you folks are talking about. It is my bestest most favorite restaurant in all the world.

[badthings]

I'm glad someone had a good experience there. I have certainly had (some) excellent food over the years.

It never occurred to me that bad service was correlated with age perception. I guess my Dorian Gray strategy backfired. Or maybe it's that we were dressed better than everyone else, who all seemed to have put on their best dog-walking clothes for the event.

[eatingwitheddie]

Had dinner here last night and it was terrific.

We were not known to the house but had very good service. The chef du cuisine stopped at our table and spoke with us in detail. Server was professional, accomodating and helpful. The chef even sent us some freebies.

We tried the assorted salumi - especially good - differents types of house cured salamis and mortadella - the bread that was on the table was terrific - first rate.

Crostone (a large crostini) of house cured salt cod was especially good - made with tomato, raisins and capers (kind of like the Sicilian pasta con la sarde).

Braised and mashed pigs feet that were breaded and fried. Yum!

Excellent Pigeon w turnips, excellent skate with chanterelles.

Terrific fig and black walnut salad with sherry vinegar.

Restaurants don't have such good food without having an enormous amount of talent around. If you had a bad experience here it's too bad because the good stuff here would be exceptional anywhere (including the best of Italy).

[essvee]

Your dinner sounds terrific, eddie. Seriously, I've been to the French Laundry, and I would much rather eat at Oliveto. Paul Bertolli is a genius, and his homemade salumi is beyond words. Especially his melt-in-the-mouth mortadella.

But you have to, have to, eat some pasta next time you go. Never never skip the pasta course. Absolute heaven. Probably his greatest strength, and Oliveto is the only Italian restaurant I've been to, besides Acquarello (which is also fantastic), that serves pasta the way it's meant to be served. As a small portion, not a main course.

[Exotic Mushroom]

I'm disappointed to hear so many people have had bad experiences at Oliveto. Every time I've eaten there everything has been absolutely fantastic - impeccable service, amazing food. My only complaint is the wine list - I think it's fairly limited. I wish they would try to stock a little more in the way of older vintages. But I've still had many great wines there, and even been introduced to some of my now-favorites.

I think some of the best service I've ever had was the first time I ate there. I was a poor college student, and a friend and I saved up for a couple of months to take a long weekend in Oakland and be decadent. We sat at that little bar area upstairs, and the waiter was incredibly attentive to us all night, making suggestions, bringing out little tastes of stuff from the kitchen, and so on all night. It was amazing.

[geoduck]

If you are interested in the quality and flavor of ingredients, Paul Bertolli, or whoever is responsible for the buying, does a brilliant job of shopping. I know a "tomato" on an Oliveto menu will knock my socks off. Whatever the ingredient, Bertolli obviously puts a lot of time and energy into procuring the best of the best. The highest level of cooking depends on that level of ingredient quality. I'm not from California but try to make it to Oliveto whenever I am in the Bay area. For what I look for in a restaurant dining experience, Oliveto is among the best in the country (I'd put Zuni, Chez Panisse, and Boulevard in the same league). I've had great as well as average service at Oliveto but the glorious tomato redeems the average waiter.

Reading the negative reports on Oliveto, I had to throw in my .02. Perhaps badthing's admitted "terrible mood" influenced the experience to one degree or another. I'd recommend Oliveto any time to anyone.

[JAZ]

Your dinner sounds terrific, eddie.  Seriously, I've been to the French Laundry, and I would much rather eat at Oliveto.  Paul Bertolli is a genius, and his homemade salumi is beyond words.  Especially his melt-in-the-mouth mortadella. 

But you have to, have to, eat some pasta next time you go.  Never never skip the pasta course.  Absolute heaven.  Probably his greatest strength, and Oliveto is the only Italian restaurant I've been to, besides Acquarello (which is also fantastic), that serves pasta the way it's meant to be served.  As a small portion, not a main course.

Paul Bertolli has a new book out, Cooking by Hand, in which he gives instructions for various salume, including the mortadella. It also includes recipes for many other dishes (pastas inlcuded) as well. At $40, it's not cheap, but it seems to offer a lot of information.

[badthings]

If you are interested in the quality and flavor of ingredients, Paul Bertolli, or whoever is responsible for the buying, does a brilliant job of shopping.

This is an interesting point, because it's true. However, it is also true of quite a few restaurants in the vicinity. It is pretty tough, I would think, for a chef to stake his/her reputation on "shopping" around here (this goes back to the Jeremiah Tower thread). For me, what distinguishes Oliveto is the pasta and the charcuterie (salumeria?), which are both superb. I've just never felt that the QPR was in line with comparable places in the area. (the wine markup, for example, is SF-style, not East Bay style.)

Reading the  negative reports on Oliveto, I had to throw in my .02. Perhaps badthing's admitted "terrible mood"  influenced the  experience to one degree or another.  I'd recommend Oliveto any time to anyone.

This had something to do with it. On the other hand, they helped foster that mood by making me wait 15 minutes and then giving me the shittiest table. I felt like I was trying to get seated at Babbo! (that is a joke, see the Babbo thread). Seriously, though, this is Oakland, not NY.

I will definitely check out Bertolli's new book. Once I contemplate making mortadella at home, I will probably decide that it's worth paying him to do it for me.

[Exotic Mushroom]

I was horrified when I first read that so many people had experienced poor service at Oliveto, since it had always been wonderful for me (see my post upthread). I couldn't imagine what people were talking about.

I eat downstairs roughly once a week, and dine upstairs probably every three months or so. The only small service nitpick I'd ever had was that no one seemed to remember me. I'm polite, interested in the food, fairly distinctive looking, and I tip well, so generally I get recognized anywhere I've gone at least twice, and often am remembered after only one visit to a restaurant. But it never really bothered me since I was always treated well anyway.

Until last night. I walked into the cafe at 5 PM, planning on getting a drink and then ordering dinner when they started serving dinner at 5:30. I took a seat at a small table and waited patiently for five minutes (I know it was five minutes, because I was looking at the clock above the bar). When no one helped me, I tried to flag down one of the three servers, and was told that someone would be with me in a second.

After fifteen minutes of trying to be helped, I started to gather my things to leave, then thought better of it and decided to wait out of sheer morbid curiosity. My presence was not even acknowledged until 5:45 PM! When I told the waiter how long I'd been waiting, he told me there must have been confusion because of shift changes (never mind that there were three servers helping out the other dozen people present, while I sat without so much as a glass of water) and comped me a glass of wine. I stayed and ate, but I didn't really enjoy my meal at all because I was so frustrated. I thought at the very least, such an egregious service error would merit a personal apology from a manager or maitre d'. But nothing. The bartender who had ignored me for forty five minutes brought me my wine, but didn't apologize or even make eye contact.

At this point, I'm so frustrated that I don't even want to go back ever again. In forty five minutes, they managed to kill two years of loyal, regular patronage. I couldn't believe no one even apologized me. That would have made me feel a whole lot better than getting a nine dollar glass of wine for free. I have had pleading apologies and $100 gift certificates given to me for less offenses at TGI Fridays, for goodness sake.

[melkor]

I just got back from a completely unremarkable lunch at Oliveto. Our server was unable to recommend any dishes. My dish (pigeon) was oversalted, and the three people I was eating with all ordered swordfish which none of them found at all compelling. I did get a reasonably good cappuccino at the bar downstairs while I was waiting for the rest of our party to arrive.

[jeffj]

My wife and I were looking forward to a great truffle dinner at Oliveto this evening. I’d love to say the meal was perfect...unfortunately, there were some major flaws in this meal that I’ll get to in a moment. First, the good stuff...the food:

Insalata di carne cruda of Watson Farm Lamb with Walnuts, Celery Heart, and Parmesan

Butternut Squash Soup with Chanterelle Mushrooms and Parmesan

Sweet Potato gnocchi with Bay Scallops

Spit-Roasted Niman Ranch Rib of Beef with Marrow Bone and Sweet Potato Gratin

Overall, these dishes were great. The lamb was served raw and was fabulously showcased by the earthy walnuts and salty, tangy parmesan. The soup had great flavor and the chanterelles were to die for. And the beef and marrow combination was hard to beat.

However, the way the truffle dinner is conducted at Oliveto boarders on appalling to me. For those who are not familiar, the menu consists of approximately 20 dishes that work well when accompanied by truffles. The guest simply chooses the dishes they’d like to eat and then decides whether or not they want fresh, white truffle shaved onto the dish. The truffles cost $7.50 per gram and the restaurant recommends 4 to 6 grams as a good serving.

We choose to include 5 grams on both our soup and gnocchi dishes (10 grams total). We were very curious to see how they portioned the truffle at the table. I thought they might use a small scale or some other means to determine how much to serve. However, our waitress simply came over and started shaving the truffle right onto the butternut squash soup.

Now get this, she takes a whole truffle and swipes it repeatedly over the slicer while verbally calling out “one gram”. This is kinda like when you played football as a kid and counted out “one Mississippi, two Mississippi”, etc. She was determining the proper portion by her cadence. So after pausing to show us the first gram, she continues to count 2-3-4-5 grams. As you might have already guessed that this method has some major problems, not the least of which is the fact that the first gram she sliced was at the small pointy end of the truffle while the fifth gram was nearer to the meaty center. So how can the first gram of shaving equal the fifth gram of shaving…it simply can’t.

In any event, we were fine with it. I trusted that she knew better than I what the correct measurement of 5 grams was. So, we were just about to dig in when she rushes back to the table and informs us that she was incorrect and had only shaved 3 grams onto the dish and offers to shave the additional 2 grams we ordered. I guess she had gone back, weighed the truffle, and realized that she shortchanged us. So, we had her shave a few more slices on the soup to account for the missing 2 grams.

We sat back and enjoyed the soup; the flavor was outstanding, however, it was served too cold. Actually, the temperature was fine if the soup had been served without truffles. However, the lack of heat failed to activate the awesome aroma of the truffle shavings. So the dish ended up being a little disappointing in the end.

Well, the empty bowl is cleared away and then much to our horror, the waitress returns to inform us that she actually over-shaved the truffle by 2 grams on the second attempt. She then goes on to say that we can have fewer truffles on our next dish if we want to make up for her mistake! Yes, she was informing us that we were required to pay for her error.

Now, I’m not even going to get into whether or not she actually over-shaved the second time (I have my doubts that she actually did). I’m more concerned about this policy in general. If I’m dining in any fine establishment and let’s say that I order a run-of-the-mill glass of Cabernet Sauvignon and the waiter inadvertently delivers a glass of reserve Cabernet from a well regarded winery…would the waiter bill me for the incorrect wine? I don’t think so. So if I clearly order 5 grams of truffle and the waitress clearly understands my order yet delivers 7 grams by accident, should I be charged for her incompetence? I don’t think so.

And this isn’t about money (I ordered 10 grams total and, in the end, they charged me for 13 grams so we’re only talking about an extra $25 or so). It’s simply about doing the right thing. I can think of several ways the restaurant could have handled itself better:

1) Have the waiters tell the customer that all shaving is approximate and that you will be charged not for what you order but what you actually receive.

2) Bring a scale to the table to more accurately determine the appropriate amount to shave.

3) Simply increase the cost per gram by a modest amount in order to absorb any costs due to over-shaving. By padding their margins they have the luxury of slightly over-shaving while not charging the customer any overage fee. It’s all about perception, in the end the customer feels happy because they got a little more than they paid for.

4) Don’t have a customer choose a specific number of grams from the start. Instead, shave one gram for the customer, pause so that they understand what one gram looks like, and then continue shaving until the customer is satisfied. Then weigh the truffle and charge based on the weight difference.

Needless to say, we will not be going back to an Oliveto truffle dinner ever again.

And for those who are curious about the quality of the truffles, they were mediocre at best. We had much more fragrant white truffle last year (which was a bad year in general) as well as the year before.

[marie-louise]

Nice pictures! Thanks for sharing your experience. Again and again, people have similar experiencs with service at this restaurant.

[comilona]

Wow! This is amazing and apalling! I haven't gone to Oliveto in years, mostly because my last experience there was underwhelming, and this is more of a reason not to go back.

A question for you, do you just take the camera to the restaurant and photograph the plates as they are served? Do you ever get any comments from the waiters?

[JAZ]

How odd. I wonder if that practice (that is, offering truffles by weight) is common.

It seems strange to me for a couple of reasons -- first, the methods by which a diner can be assured that he or she is getting the amount paid for all seem awkward and not conducive to a pleasant dining experience. Second it assumes that a diner will know enough to choose an appropriate amount, which seems to me to be a pretty big assumption.

My only experience with a truffle "supplement" was a few days ago. It was the same sort of menu set up that Oliveto uses -- all or most of the dishes on the menu are designed to go with truffles. But in this case the restaurant charged a flat fee ($35) for adding them to any dish. I assumed the restaurant would add the appropriate amount for whatever dish was ordered. I didn't get the supplement, though, so I don't know the amounts they use. But it certainly seems like a better method than charging by the gram.

[melkor]

The practice of charging by weight is most common at restaurants which normally don't serve truffles. La Toque in rutherford is a good example of a restaurant that serves a truffle menu when they are in season, they don't offer the same dishes w/o truffles nor do they use the same quantity of truffles for each dish. It's at best a culinary hack to just dump some shaved truffles on a bunch of standard plates and call it a truffle menu.

[Hest88]

Well, my last boycott of Oliveto was due to appalling service (though I was seduced back by the Whole Hog dinner), so I'm not surprised that they've again made a hiring/training misstep.

[melkor]

Oliveto comes up again and again, and there is never any shortage of people posting about problems with the service or problems with the food. Is the general consensus that Oliveto isn't all its cracked up to be?

I can’t say any of the meals I’ve had there were particularly impressive. All of my visits have fallen somewhere between acceptable and poor both in terms of food and service.

Has anyone had a spectacular meal there?

[daybaker]

I wonder if anyone enjoyed quince or delfina truffle dinners- quince last week and delfina tonight (friday) and tomorrow as well I believe

very different and excellent meals both-true to form for each restaurant- both very generous with the truffles tableside with quince being a (substantial) bit more expensive for the 5 gram shaving supplement common to both restaurants and delfina maybe having better truffles by a small margin

missed the oliveto dinner but have definately had my fill here with my favorite neighborhood places- will post more detail but I need to have quince fax me a menu to be accurate in a post- there was a truffle wine pairing flight menu offered there too so the details are vague at this point- excellent wines

any one else sample the sf offerings?

[pim]

Oliveto comes up again and again, and there is never any shortage of people posting about problems with the service or problems with the food. Is the general consensus that Oliveto isn't all its cracked up to be?

I can’t say any of the meals I’ve had there were particularly impressive.  All of my visits have fallen somewhere between acceptable and poor both in terms of food and service.

Has anyone had a spectacular meal there?

←

I did, actually, well perhaps not spectacular but perfectly nice. I happened to be wandering around Rockridge and ended up there for dinner. Had a lovely plate of charcuterie, a nice basic salad, and a pasta with flavorful ragu to finish. A simple meal but everything was well done. The wine, a california Syrah, was chosen by my friend and wasn't exactly to my taste, but that's the only complain I have about the meal. I didn't remember any service problems at all. I didn't remember it being particularly nice either, just nothing wrong with it in general.

Mind you it wasn't inspiring enough to make the trek out to Oakland for this, but if I lived in that neighbourhood I could see myself eating there regularly.

[essvee]

I sure have, melkor. And I've been to five or six truffle dinners over the years. But never have I seen them pull that kind of shit. It's always been X dollars per serving, and the truffles were always shaved by the Kleins or by Chef Paul. That's just lame and bizarre.

Last time I went, two years ago, we bought a whole truffle for the table, so I don't know how new this practice is, but I will say I am getting kind of tired of being one of the sole defenders of the place on this board. I love it; it's my very favorite restaurant, and I've been to the French Laundry and other joints like that, but it's funny to remember that whenever someone posts to complain about Olivet, I always charge in to defend it. The behavior described in this post, however, is indefensible. I'm embarrassed for Chef Paul, a chef I respect immensely.

He is kind of a cold dude, though. I wonder if his aloof reserve is part of the culture of the restaurant....