Arun's?

[david coonce]

When I moved to Chicago a couple years ago, I had read a lot about Arun's, mostly good. I was pretty excited to try it, but never got to (chef's hours, chef's wages). Since then the few things I've read about the place seem to be decidedly mixed. I no longer live in Chicago, but my wife and I get up there every few weeks or so. The next time we go to Chicago we are planning on splurging to celebrate some recent good fortune, and we've been to all the "expensive-but-not-quite-Alinea-expensive" places (Blackbird, Schwa, etc.) and are curious if anybody here recommends Arun's at all? Because if not, we're going for Alinea. But I'm curious to know how such a well-regarded restaurant has turned into an afterthought in such a relatively short time.

[ronnie_suburban]

. . . But I'm curious to know how such a well-regarded restaurant has turned into an afterthought in such a relatively short time.

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Some theorize that Arun has spread himself a bit thin but I cannot speak to that.

My theory is that there is so much better Thai food available in Chicago -- and almost all of it is much cheaper than at Arun's -- that Arun's has dropped out of the spotlight. When you're in a city that offers arguably the best array of Thai food in the U.S., you've got to be great -- and consistently so -- to stay on top.

=R=

Edited September 24, 2007 by ronnie_suburban (log)

[BryanZ]

The obvious answer is just to go to Alinea.

[Darren72]

Here is a link to some helpful recent reviews of Arun's:

http://www.lthforum.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=1504

While many will agree that Alinea's is a better restaurant, however defined, it bears mentioning that Arun's is a whole lot cheaper. It isn't easy for someone else to answer the question "Should I spend $100 per person here, or $300 per person there?".

Note that if you want excellent Thai food in Chicago, you can't go wrong by find one of the cheaper options that come up frequently in discussions here and at LTHForum.com

[nsxtasy]

I wonder how many people came to the same conclusion I did. Some years ago - I'm not sure how many, but I bet it was at least 12, maybe more - I ate at Arun's. I thought the food was decent, but not all that different from (or any better than) other Thai restaurants. And I concluded that it is just not worth the price differential. I haven't been back since. I wonder if a lot of people try Arun's once and never go back.

Chicago has many Thai restaurants, and IMHO some are significantly better than the handful whose names keep getting mentioned on various forums. I think if you try a lot of them, you're bound to find that most are decent, and a few you like a lot. Maybe even some that are close to you. And not necessarily those that keep getting hyped. And I bet you all of them are substantially less expensive than Arun's.

I should also note that I am not of the "cheaper is always better" school, and I appreciate the difference in food, service, etc that you can find at top, expensive, splurge type places. I just couldn't find anything worth the higher price at Arun's.

[david coonce]

Thanks for all the help. I've actually read that Alinea, with upgraded wine pairings and the full tour, is closer to 600 dollars/person. That's a big difference.

When I lived in Chicago my favorite Thai place was the unfortunately-named "Mr. Thai" on Ashland. (It has a different name now, pretty much the same menu except they added sushi.) The food was awesome and cheap. If arun's isn't several light-years ahead of that, (and it sounds like it's not) , then I'll go elsewhere. thanks for the help, again, and if anybody's eaten there recently please pipe up and lemme know.

[nsxtasy]

I've actually read that Alinea, with upgraded wine pairings and the full tour, is closer to 600 dollars/person.

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That's high. The smaller tasting menu is $135 and the larger one is $195. I don't usually get the wine pairings - I am a moderate wine drinker - and it's been around $300 per person. Granted, you can go crazy driving the price up with wine and other alcohol, but most folks end up somewhere in the $250-400 range per person.

[david coonce]

I read the 600$ figure on the Alinea thread here on egullet. It's what someone spent. I figure you only go to places like Alinea once a year or less, so why not make the most of it, right? As much as I hate spending good money on bad food, I really dislike going to an amazing place and feeling like I have to watch the prices carefully. It takes the fun out of a great meal/experience.

As for Arun's, I don't think we're going to go. I was pretty skeptical anyway, but reading more online reviews of the place I'm pretty set against it now. Not just because most of the reviews weren't that good - reader reviews of a restaurant are notoriously fickle and sniping - but mostly because nobody seems to have eaten there or reviewed the place for several years, which is probably a real bad sign.

I think I am mostly interested in how restaurants in cities like Chicago acquire "buzz" - and then squander it so quickly. Butter, Scylla and Green Zebra are other places that come immediately to mind when i think of this phenomenon, as well as places like West Town Tavern, Thyme and North Pond. It's certainly a commentary on the fickleness of tastes, but also on how important it is to stay a step ahead of the game, especially in a progressive culinary city like Chicago.

Edited September 25, 2007 by david coonce (log)

[nsxtasy]

I read the 600$ figure on the Alinea thread here on egullet. It's what someone spent.

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It may be what someone spent, but again, it's about double what is most typical there.

I think I am mostly interested in how restaurants in cities like Chicago acquire "buzz" - and then squander it so quickly. Butter, Scylla and Green Zebra are other places that come immediately to mind when i think of this phenomenon, as well as places like West Town Tavern, Thyme and North Pond. It's certainly a commentary on the fickleness of tastes, but also on how important it is to stay a step ahead of the game, especially in a progressive culinary city like Chicago.

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I would disagree with the comment about "squandering buzz". When a place is truly good, its reputation continues. Green Zebra, West Town Tavern, and North Pond have as good a reputation, and as much buzz, now as they did when they opened, and they are highly regarded indeed. Scylla did, too; it closed because the owner decided to move to the Pacific Northwest, despite the fact that Scylla's reputation and, by all reports, business volume were as good as ever. I don't think Butter or Thyme ever achieved all that much buzz.

Edited September 25, 2007 by nsxtasy (log)

[ronnie_suburban]

I think I am mostly interested in how restaurants in cities like Chicago acquire "buzz" - and then squander it so quickly. Butter, Scylla and Green Zebra are other places that come immediately to mind when i think of this phenomenon, as well as places like West Town Tavern, Thyme and North Pond. It's certainly a commentary on the fickleness of tastes, but also on how important it is to stay a step ahead of the game, especially in a progressive culinary city like Chicago.

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FWIW, I had a great meal at Green Zebra a few months back and posted about my experience here. While the novelty of the place seems to have faded, the quality certainly endures. The same could be said for North Pond. The fact that it doesn't get tons of ongoing media coverage has little to do with the reality of the restauant's situation.

As for Butter, the original owner didn't have much experience and went into receivership. The next owner was averse to fine dining and subsequently lost his chef. Scylla has closed its doors -- experienced chef but a first-time owner. Lumping all these restaurants together may be convenient but it isn't necessarily accurate. It's a tough business and a variety of things can happen.

But the bottom line is that new places get the most buzz. That's the way PR firms, newspapers and magazines work -- once places aren't new, the press releases generally stop and reviews aren't really news anymore. That doesn't mean that places that don't buzz loudly haven't endured. And conversely, places that do get the strong, initial buzz aren't always worthy of the praise they receive in the first place.

I think that when you're here in town everyday, it's much easier to discern the contenders from the pretenders. From a distance, relying strictly on published accounts can be dicey and provide an incomplete snapshot.

=R=

[david coonce]

True, Ronnie. I have had a couple very fine meals at Green Zebra, and decent ones at WTT and a couple others. But what I was getting at is that nobody talks about these restaurants the way they talk about, say Alinea or Schwa. Or even Charlie Trotter's, which still gets tons of press despite the fact that most think its best, most innovative days are behind it. But the last time I ate at GZ I got in without a Res (Thursday night), while Trotter's still requires at least a week and Alinea several months. And GZ has only been open a year longer than Alinea.

Indeed, just look at the threads here on egullet for a pretty good example of what those in the know think about restaurants. How many pages of threads are there for WTT or Green Zebra or, hell, even Charlie Trotter's? Or North Pond? While the length of a message-board thread isn't the best way to judge a restaurant's popularity, it is some kind of barometer, right?

And perhaps because I'm not "in" Chicago anymore I perceive the buzz differently, but, certainly, Alinea and even Schwa have managed to maintain pretty serious accolades throughout lots of changes, and even here in Indiana Blackbird and Avec are still as buzz-worthy as they've ever been.

Nsxtasy, Butter was as hyped, for a moment, as any restaurant I was around in Chicago. True, its star burned briefly, but it was a huge buzz at the time, especially around the restaurant community.

But I will admit that sometimes restaurants come onto the scene in a blaze of glory and fade fast, and the blaze of glory is what some people mistake for quality. Perhaps this is what happened to Arun's? Anybody remember Masque?

Edited September 25, 2007 by david coonce (log)

[jesteinf]

Just because a restaurant doesn't have "buzz", it doesn't mean that it isn't popular anymore. Sure, you don't see posts here everyday for North Pond, but I just made a dinner reservation there about 5-6 weeks out and I couldn't get my first choice of time. Also, just because people aren't discussing it on the Heartland forum of eGullet, it doesn't mean that it isn't being discussed somewhere.

Also, on Alinea, if you do the Tour with upgraded wine pairings that's about $400 per person for a total check of $800. Plus tax brings you up to $880. If you tip 20% on that brings you up to about $1,050 or about $525 per person. So, pretty close to $600pp.

[ronnie_suburban]

David,

You are absolutely correct about Alinea and Schwa . . . their buzz endures.

I think that with Alinea, it's for obvious reasons. It's a destination restaurant in the truest sense. The accolades continue to roll in and because of 'what it is,' the media coverage is continual. Now, sadly, chef Achatz is in the news because of his health. It seems like there's always something newsworthy going on at Alinea.

Schwa's a tough table and perhaps that fuels its buzz. When folks finally eat there, they tend to report about their experiences. 26 seats does create something of a mystique and some reports tend to have a proprietary stamp to them. I'd argue that Blackbird and Avec continue to buzz precisely because of how good and innovative they are. I'm not sure how indicative message forum traffic is because forums tend to have their favorites, too.

Also, I'm far more likely to post about a new place than a familiar favorite. I mean, how many times can one person post about the same place before it becomes redundant? And that's especially true if a given restaurant's menu doesn't change very often or one orders the same few items each time he or she dines there. Even Alinea, I've been there a dozen times, but you'd never know it from reading the thread here. At some point, there isn't a whole lot to say other than "they're still doing a great job" and I tend to not make posts like that.

I do remember Masque, which was originally in my hometown of Deerfield. It 'temporarily' closed; ostensibly to change venues. During that period, they opened a second location in the city which, iirc, lasted about 9 months. The moment the Deerfield location reopened, the city location immediately ceased to be. Not long after that, the Deerfield location was shuttered too. From my perspective, this seemed like a smoke and mirror situation from the very beginning. I'm honestly not sure what happened but the place never seemed credible to me in the first place. Maybe that's because having a great restaurant so near my home seemed 'too good to be true.' As it turns out, it may have been.

But you bring up interesting points for discussion. I was talking to friends the other day about new vs. old when it comes to selecting restaurants. Lately, I've foresaken some of my proven 'go-to' restaurants in favor of trying new places. I kind of feel bad doing it but trying new (to me) places is fun and exciting. I find myself going to places like Greek Islands and Prairie Grass Cafe (to name just a couple) a bit less frequently, even though they are every bit as good as they've always been. But, when eating out is a passion/hobby, trying new places has to be part of the equation. And with limited opportunities to dine out, sometimes the old favorites have to take a back seat, in spite of their polish and continual success.

=R=

[david coonce]

Ronnie,

I bring up Masque simply because it was one of the first jobs I had in Chicago (the city location) and my god, what a glorious mess. Well-funded and completely incompetent management. But there was some sort of weird buzz around it - we were packed for a while, although the food we put out was embarrassing (I was just a stagiere, so don't blame me if you ate there!)

When I lived in Chicago, my favorite go-to place was a place in my neighborhood called A Tavola. I've not seen it mentioned here - it's very small and on a barren stretch of Chicago Ave, but the food is always spot-on and the menu, while not creative, is superb (albeit very small - like, 9 items, 3 specials and a few desserts). It's not really a cheap neighborhood place, but it's really good.

I bring it up, I guess, because although this is a thread for Arun's and this is not especially germane to that discussion, you do bring up a point about discovering new, great places that hardly get a mention against the Trotter's and Topolobampos of the Chicago food scene. It is interesting how far a restaurant can go on buzz alone. It's something that seemed to fuel Arun's, until people wised up to the fact that the food wasn't exceptional. Certainly most people would agree that Blackbird, Vie or North Pond are better restaurants, currently, than Charlie Trotter's, but the buzz around Trotter's is going to be there forever.

It's a different discussion, for sure, but it's one that I think those of us who really care about food should be having: that is, how do we identify and support really great restaurants, new and old, that have never gotten their proper due?

[nsxtasy]

I will admit that sometimes restaurants come onto the scene in a blaze of glory and fade fast, and the blaze of glory is what some people mistake for quality. Perhaps this is what happened to Arun's? Anybody remember Masque?

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Arun's had very little buzz when it opened, quite a few years ago.

And apparently no one remembers Masck at all, even those who worked there, because other people posting about it don't even remember how to spell it.

on Alinea, if you do the Tour with upgraded wine pairings that's about $400 per person for a total check of $800.  Plus tax brings you up to $880.  If you tip 20% on that brings you up to about $1,050 or about $525 per person.  So, pretty close to $600pp.

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I guess I just don't go to Alinea with wine aficionados who are willing to spend ungodly amounts of money on upgrading their wine pairings. My friends and I go there and spend $300 per person, with rather moderate wine. I just assume that we're more typical of Alinea customers than people who go there looking to spend an obscene amount of money on wine. Of course, you can spend a whole lot more money than is typical, if you crank up your alcohol quantity and quality. I can assure you that it's easy to go there and spend $250-350 per person, either with the smaller menu and generous wines, or the larger menu and moderate wines. Heck, you can get the smaller menu and not drink a lot and get out under $200, if you want. What's most common? I don't know. But I've never, and everyone I know who has been there has never, spent anywhere near $500+ per person.

Edited September 26, 2007 by nsxtasy (log)

[jesteinf]

But I've never, and everyone I know who has been there has never, spent anywhere near $500+ per person.

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Obviously we don't know the same people

I think the point that's trying to be made is that while it may not be common to spend $600pp it's certainly easy enough to do.

[ronnie_suburban]

Ronnie,

I bring up Masque simply because it was one of the first jobs I had in Chicago (the city location) and my god, what a glorious mess. Well-funded and completely incompetent management. But there was some sort of weird buzz around it - we were packed for a while, although the food we put out was embarrassing (I was just a stagiere, so don't blame me if you ate there!)

LOL . . . ate there once or twice. But yeah, it seemed like they were getting mentions in Dish all the time.

When I lived in Chicago, my favorite go-to place was a place in my neighborhood called A Tavola. I've not seen it mentioned here - it's very small and on a barren stretch of Chicago Ave, but the food is always spot-on and the menu, while not creative, is superb (albeit very small - like, 9 items, 3 specials and a few desserts). It's not really a cheap neighborhood place, but it's really good.

I know it well. Chef/owner Dan Bocik catered our friends' wedding (at the Old Town School of Folk Music) 12 years ago, right around when a tavola first opened. I was back there last summer for the first time in a while and really enjoyed it. FWIW, their gnocchi, with brown sage butter, are amazing.

I bring it up, I guess, because although this is a thread for Arun's and this is not especially germane to that discussion, you do bring up a point about discovering new, great places that hardly get a mention against the Trotter's and Topolobampos of the Chicago food scene. It is interesting how far a restaurant can go on buzz alone. It's something that seemed to fuel Arun's, until people wised up to the fact that the food wasn't exceptional. Certainly most people would agree that Blackbird, Vie or North Pond are better restaurants, currently, than Charlie Trotter's, but the buzz around Trotter's is going to be there forever.

From my perspective, he seems to be talked about less these days than in the past, although he did just celebrate his 20th anniversary, which was covered widely. But CT is always going to get his due and rightfully so.

It's a different discussion, for sure, but it's one that I think those of us who really care about food should be having: that is, how do we identify and support really great restaurants, new and old, that have never gotten their proper due?

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I think that on-line venues like this one definitely plays a part. If you love a place, it definitely cannot hurt to show a little love by posting about it.

=R=

[david coonce]

on Alinea, if you do the Tour with upgraded wine pairings that's about $400 per person for a total check of $800. Plus tax brings you up to $880. If you tip 20% on that brings you up to about $1,050 or about $525 per person. So, pretty close to $600pp.

←

I guess I just don't go to Alinea with wine aficionados who are willing to spend ungodly amounts of money on upgrading their wine pairings. My friends and I go there and spend $300 per person, with rather moderate wine. I just assume that we're more typical of Alinea customers than people who go there looking to spend an obscene amount of money on wine. Of course, you can spend a whole lot more money than is typical, if you crank up your alcohol quantity and quality. I can assure you that it's easy to go there and spend $250-350 per person, either with the smaller menu and generous wines, or the larger menu and moderate wines. Heck, you can get the smaller menu and not drink a lot and get out under $200, if you want. What's most common? I don't know. But I've never, and everyone I know who has been there has never, spent anywhere near $500+ per person.

←

Edited September 26, 2007 by david coonce (log)

[nsxtasy]

Did you ever eat there?

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Yes. I ate there in winter 2003, and I thought it was excellent. I remember having a smoked prime rib that was superb. I went back about four months later and thought it was not all that good.

And as far as Arun's, it had plenty of buzz several years ago - enough that I knew about it before I moved to Chicago.

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Arun's has been up and down in the buzz department. As noted above, many restaurants get a lot of buzz when they first open. (And they hire publicists to ensure that this happens.) Unlike those others, Arun's received buzz, not so much when they opened (in 1989, I believe), but at certain times since then, such as when they received certain ratings/awards (4-star ratings in the Trib, Sun-Times, and Mobil Guide, and James Beard nominations for Best Chef - Midwest) which were virtually unheard of at the time for an Asian restaurant.

[ronnie_suburban]

Arun's has been up and down in the buzz department.  As noted above, many restaurants get a lot of buzz when they first open.  (And they hire publicists to ensure that this happens.)  Unlike those others, Arun's received buzz, not so much when they opened (in 1989, I believe), but at certain times since then, such as when they received certain ratings/awards (4-star ratings in the Trib, Sun-Times, and Mobil Guide, and James Beard nominations for Best Chef - Midwest) which were virtually unheard of at the time for an Asian restaurant.

←

Arun's also buzzed the other way when Phil Vettel downgraded them from 4 stars to 3 back in June of 2005.

=R=

[millerza]

I am not that tuned into the OMG Next Hottt Restaurant Buzz Machine, but when I ate at Arun's in July I thought it was really good and worth the money. Yes, there haven't been any sea changes in the menu or presentation in years, but I find that refreshing. We went in there expecting to see some exquisite, artfully prepared dishes and we did. We went in expecting to be asked how we liked it prepared, and we were. We went in expecting highly attentive service that was not at all stifling, and we received this same service. I didn't have my mind blown by any theatrics or revolutionary techniques (that were apparent to me, at least), but I did really enjoy the food and the experience.