Bux

I don't really understand the argument about the definition of the word "upselling," except for the connotation of the word. Upselling is upselling, but we don't want to accuse the seller of upselling when we perceive he's doing us a favor. Let's face it, "accuse" is the operative word and it sets the tone for why Plotnicki refuses to see the word as it's neutral definition warrants. Didn't I just leave a message in another thread about how and why I am rarely offended when upsold in France and usually put off when upsold in American restaurants? Anyway, even for the sake of argument, we should accept the definition offered in the original thread and discuss the questions asked. To argue about the definition seems to be about controlling a thread rather than discussing it. Nevertheless, I come back to my original point in this--good upselling when you come away feeling you've not been upsold. If we accept Fat Guy's definition of "upselling" and I hope I've made a convincing argument that we do that if only to operate on level ground, there are times and places where I want to be "up sold." I go to DiPalo's to buy some olive oil, coffee beans, fresh mozzarella and maybe some sausage. Louis says he has this new sheep's milk cheese from Sardinia and offers me a taste. Maybe I like it and maybe it's not my sort of cheese. If I like it, I buy a big piece. If I hate it, I don't buy it, but if it's just not my thing or if I don't particularly like it, but I know I can eat it in a sandwich even though I can buy a less expensive cheese I like more, I still buy a piece. Why? It's simple, I want to encourage Louis to think of me as a guy who can be upsold so he will continue to offer me new foods. He doesn't push food or upsell customers unless he thinks they have a genuine interest in food.

Bingo. Good upselling is when it's done to insure you get a better meal with the aim of making you a regular customer. Bad upselling is when the aim is one shot at your wallet. Good upselling isn't thought of as upselling the next day.

On that account I would let you be king of the gourmet world, or at least director of admissions.

As a New Yorker with no special paranoia, I become extrememly defensive when I suspect upselling in a restaurant. I'll even go so far as to reject suggestions just to demonstrate the strength of my character and will power to the staff member. Of course I am exaggerating. In France however, my reaction is quite the opposite. Over the years of my visits there, I have come to believe the average restaurant has my best interests at heart and offers the best it has out of pride not avarice. There are clip joints in France and they exist even far from the tourist centers in Paris, but there's a difference in the way restaurants have traditionally functioned in France and the US and the role chefs have played in society. My attitude in the US is changing, both because dining in France has opened my mind and because of a new breed of American chefs and restaurants. As for Danny Meyer, whatever I may feel about any one particular restaurant of his in terms of how it pleases me, I'm quite convinced he offers reasonable value and that one of his main goals is a satisfied customer. I know that although he found it quite time consuming, Danny also found the Q&A very rewarding. I hope he's still lurking in this thread.

That link is interesting and it makes it appear that the escobar is incidental to the woman's death if, in fact, she died of an infection as stated on her death certificate. Can severe diarrhea bring on an infections or symtoms of an infection that would mask dehydration or other effect of diarrhea? Actually Dr. William Mellon of the Los Angeles County/USC Medical Center, said the oils in escobar "will cause some diarrhea," not severe diarrhea. I'm not saying that couldn't finish off a 74 year old woman, just that her husband seems to be the only one with that claim. I'm sure he'll find a lawyer to join him.

I've made a few comments elsewhere about les Magnolias. Chauvel can cook alright, and I was impressed by much about the restaurant including the food, but in addition to finding the food complex, I found it a bit complicated. Although I've discovered I have serious disagreement about Gagnaire with some of the people whose food tastes I most respect, I found I was able to slip into Gagniare's sensibilites and thofoughly enjoy my meal. At les Magnolias, although impressed to a point, I questioned elements on the plate and some of the overall effect. It's not that Chauvel is more experimental that Gagnaire, it's just that I felt he was no where near as successful. And comparing him to Gagnaire is higher praise than I mean to offer here. Still, it's a place I'd recommend for anyone wanting to understand where creativity is these days in French kitchens.

Centre G. Pompidou?

Fat Guy, you don't have a politically correct bone in your body do you?

I haven't been to Arzak in over five years. Juan Mari was still in charge of the kitchens. I found the food very light and contemporary--inventive without being in your face creative. We had a one c'clock lunch reservation, but had a little trouble finding the place and arrived at 1:30 to find one other couple in the place. If memory serves, they were speaking English. I believe we finished eating sometime after four. My recollection is that the room filled up around three but that a large party arrived and were sat in the upstairs dining room well after three o'clock. In May 2000 we arrived late for a two o'clock lunch at Berasategui and not many parties arrived after us. To a small extent, I think things are changing. To a greater extent it may depend on whether the crowd is local or foreign. Inbetween those two meals we had dinner at Goizeko Kabi in Bilbao. I think we arrived at nine. The tapas bar we passed along the way seemed to be jumping as a large group of smartly dressed twenty somethings were entering. Goizeki Kabi was all but deserted. The few diners were clearly tourists. Within the hour it began to fill up. Gozeiki Kabi had an extensive menu and seemed prepared to serve lots of dishes that weren't on the menu. The English menus were not direct translations of the Spanish menu. The food ranged considerably from so-so to great. At the two and three star level, there's an international sense at play in the restaurants, at least in the Basque region and Catalonia. Below that, it really takes some time to decipher the menus and understand Spanish food if it's new to you. At Berasategui we had the tasting menu. At Arzak we couldn't decide whether to take the tasting menu or not and the hostess suggested we both order our individual choices and have the kitchen split the dishes thereby composing our own tasting menu of three seafood dishes and a pigeon split between us. After that we only had room for a split dessert. We have some advantage in Spain as Spanish is Mrs. B's first language. Even then, we had trouble with Basque names and dishes. I'm a fan of trying local wines when I travel, especially for thefirst time in an area. In any event I suggest you try the txocoli sometime while you're in the area of San Sebastian. It's a nice white wine with seafood, but not one of the world's great wines.

I'm inclined to agree with what you say. There's an interesting contradiction in your post and I agree with what on the surface seems to be polar opposites. Many of my interesting experiences, the ones that have made some of my trips memorable, are the result of mistakes we've made. At times, if I'd been properly prepared I wouldn't have had the learning experience I had, nor would I have met the people I did nor seen the things I saw and it would have been a loss. Nevertheless, if one is going to wander into a restaurant that serves strange food or even food you're bound not to like, it would be helpful to know what to order to get the best they offered. In this case, I suppose that advice would have driven you elsewhere.

I shall be interested in hearing about your reaction to les Magnolias. We had lunch there just before we flew home last November. We were coming from the southwest of Paris and successfuly avoided the periphique, not getting lost until we were quite close, but the closer we got the more lost we were. Fortunately we left plenty of time . We were hardly the last to be seated and had a liesurely lunch before heading to CDG. It's probably easier to reach by the RER than by car. We found our way to the station but once there we learned that one way streets were all against us. It was one of those you can't get there from here situations. Needless to say, with the exception of a few tourist sites, we're totally unfamiliar with the suburbs of Paris. It's a charming place in spite of being basically what I'd describe as a storefront space in which I'd expect some sort of more casual coffee shop. We found the food very inventive and very interesting, although not nearly as successful as Gagnaire or Adria for us. This is not to imply it's in the same vein of either of those two.

My great meal at Carre des Feulliants was almost ten years ago. Even a return luncheon was too far back for it to offer a meaningful guess at how the place is today, but I thought the meal then was excellent. The only English I heard spoken except at our table came from a table that was talking about wine as if all or most of the diners were in the trade. Others tell me it was overrun by Americans when they were there. I can only hope the food is still as good. It was well rooted in the southwest--duck, foie gras, truffles, etc. At the time, we had never had anything like his "lasagna" of thinly sliced jerusalem artichokes, truffles and foie gras. Come to think of it, it was like a rich man's la Regalade. Some years back, we ate in a little restaurant in the 15th--Philippe Detourbe. I thought it an inexpensive gem at the time. We've never been back, but after more than a few meals at restaurants I wanted to try, I regretted not having thought of going to Detourbe instead. It was too chic looking to be called a bistro and the food just a little too sophisticated and inventive to be thought of as bistro food. The hostess was quite charming and "sympa." They offered a set menu of five courses, no choice at all, but they seemed ready to provide an alternative if necessary in the case of allergies. The price was ridiculously low for the quality and I see that it was 37 euros in the 2002 Michelin. The wine list was skimpy if I'm not mistaken, but you'll find something to drink on it. I'd love to know how it's doing these days. The one report I've had since I've been there is that it's still good and that's from someone who frequently spends a whole lot more for dinner. Another personal favorite is C'amelot on the rue Amelot. It's also a prix fixe with very limited choices. The food is rougher than at Detourbe. By that I mean more rustic. I would those same terms to describe la Regalade. In the first arrondissement, I enjoyed the wine bar in Legrande. It's approached from the gallerie Vivienne side of the shop. Get there early for a bite of lunch. They feature wines by the glass, or bottles from the shop at a reasonable mark up and plates of cheeses, charcuterie, smoked fish, etc. It's small and not open in the evening. That was a pity as it was near our hotel and I thought it would a nice place for a coffee and nightcap. They also have a large table out in the gallerie and serve wine dinners from time to time. The table seemed unused as part of the normal wine bar operation. I rather liked the food at Helene Darroze's Salon, but really didn't like the style. I guess it was the wrong time and the wrong style in combination. It's a casual tapas place where most of the clientele sits on deep plush sofas and perhaps at some earlier point in our life we would have found it all romantic, then it was just uncomfortable for eating. Service was erratic but friendly. Then again maybe the service problem was ours for not knowing how small the dishes were and for having to order a second round. Some of the heartier food was quite good and I'd try the more formal restaurant based on what I tasted.

I don't know which cheese in America might closely match tomme de laguiole. As I recall it's a semi hard pressed white cheese. I guess the quintessential Auvergnat restaurant would have to be Michel Bras. He did serve his version of aligot in a small silver sauce pan alongside his wonderful beef. I'm not sure if was much different, with the exception of the silver server, than the version I had in a rather inexpensive brasserie in Rodez the day before. There's not much one can do to improve on a classic. The wine bar Nemrod on the rue du Cherche Midi, possibly at the intersection of rue St. Placide is run by Auvergnats. Perhaps that's why their aligot is excellent and their fried potatoes are not. It's one of those unexceptional looking places with unexceptional food (save the sausages, andouillette and l'aligot) that make Paris a real place. Some time in the nineties it was named the wine bar of the year. One can't be renominated for the honor and thus, once a wine bar of the year, always a wine bar of the year. It's far less trendy than Willi's Wine Bar and all the places in that neighborhood and a lot less chic with it's pseudo decor now starting to have it's own patina and looking less offensive. It does offer some nice beaujolais by the carafe and sandwiches on pain Poilaine. From time to time, we meet friends who live in the neighborhood there for lunch and regrettably, if we have a good dinner planned, I skip the sausages knowing I won't have an appetite for dinner.

I haven't been to l'Ambassade d'Auvergne. I only know that Michelin recommends it for Andouillette (chitlin sausage) and boudin, (blood sausage) which are not the fare most Americans tend to seek in Paris. At any rate good blood sausage is rare in the states and real andouillette is non existant. [Cajun andouille is something else and totally unrelated to the French charcuterie products with similar names.]

There have been quite a few threads here on that subject. Number one candidate for the the number one position may be Pierre Herme who's, among other things, designed a line of chocolate cakes for Wegman's the NY/NJ supermarket. Take a look at the recent JP Hevin thread(s) as well. Dorie Greenspan's Paris Sweets may be a book you'd want to look at for some names and addresses. It would be easy to blow your budget for dinner on a few choice things at Herme's shop on the rue Bonaparte.

Having flown just a little bit in the US, I'm surprised at just how expensive it can be. I'd just as soon be in Paris dining in bistros than dining in the best restaurants in most cities in the US. Of course if one lives in NY, you can have a couple of very good meals here for just the price of your ticket to Paris and back, but then you haven't seen Paris and I think people find the city has attractions beyond just the restaurants. There are the patisseries, and chocolatiers for instance. Seriously, I find I can't take two great meals in one day, nor six stars in two or maybe even three days and make it my business to get to know a part of the city by doing a lot of walking and visit a few cultural institutions.

I agree. I've moved the discussion of Chinese food in London over to the UK board where it will be on topic and likely to attract additional replies from those who have something to add on the subject. See London not Paris for Chinese food in the UK and Ireland board.

I could easily defend spending hundreds of dollars on air fare and eating at inexpensive bistros in Paris. For one thing there's a certain minimum price one has to pay to get to Paris. In real life one has to subtract that from what one can afford to spend on the trip. The rest has to be budgeted. I'd forgo an awful lot of things for good food, but we have to eat every day and we need to live within our means. It's possible one just can't afford to come to Paris at all, but if one can and has a small budget left over, I sincerely believe a first time visitor to France can have a superb time taking meals at unstarred bistros, brasseries and creperies. I'd rather forgo a star than a glass, or more, or wine. Regrettably bistro food today is not what it was when I was a student or when my wife and I first visited Paris. On the other hand, it seems to be a lot better than it was a decade or two ago having undergone revitalization in the nineties. I have mixed feelings about the least expensive menus in the hautest of the three star restaurants. Sometimes they are an incredible buy, but sometimes they buy entrance into the luxury surroundings and service and nary a hint of what the chef can do. They are like visiting an opera house between performances. It's a tourist experience. There's only one restaurant in Paris where I've had both the least expensive pre fixe lunch menu and the most expensive tasting menu for dinner. That was at Carre des Feuilliants. I felt the grand tasting menu at well over twice the price was so much better that it was the infinitely better value. If I thought the bistros of today represented the soul of France the way they did in the sixties, I'd say one was better off learning about food at that level and using what one learned to better appreciate the starred experience the next time around. It's more difficult to say with conviction that these days.

Generally speaking I feel that Michelin is the staid conservative guide and GaultMillau the one willing to take risks. GM has been much quicker to promote and demote restaurants and sometimes a little quirky in what they respond to. In my experience, you're more likely to get a safe recommendation from Michelin, but you'll get more cutting edge suggestions from GM. Relying on GM will be rewarded by reservations at restaurants before they get too popular and punished by dinners at some places not yet ready for prime time. Nevertheless, I find there is some warning if you can read the blurbs. They're far less cryptic or at least less ironic, and thus more straight forward than they were when Gault and Millau were there. It may be moot. We've heard that the GM magazine has ceased publication and so far there's been no word on the guide for 2003. It's usually out well before Michelin. Taste in food is ultimately subjective and unless you allow some one to train your palate and then take recommendations from that someone, no single guide is going to work for all diners. If a meal in a highly recommended restaurant upsets one's stomach because it's too rich in butter and cream, it's not the fault of the guide that recommended the restaurant as much as it is the fault of the nation whose population still enjoys that sort of food. Most of the guides mentioned are written with the French diner in mind. In regard to prices and recommendations, Michelin is the quintessential conservative French guide and it's emphasis is clearly on traditional French restaurants where one is expected to take at least three courses. It does not cover snack food, sandwich places and ethnic places where one may eat cheaply. As I mentioned, it also caters to French tastes. There was a time when I'd tell you that French taste was just plain better than American taste. The French have embraced McDonald's and we've learned how to cook and eat on our own terms. In the 21st century, I still enjoy France for it's haute cuisine and it's more rustic provincial specialties, but they don't have the variety we have in America. I've not made it to l'Ambassade d'Auvergne, but I doubt one could eat that kind of food as well for nearly that low a price in NY. In the end, there's always a question of subjective taste. I know of card carrying American gourmets who found la Regalade too heavy and greasy for their tastes. For me it was a memorable meal, beyond my expectations.

It's a wonder you have time to eat.

This seems like a thread that's better suited to the France board where you may get advice from a larger pool or members. I am sure fresh_a has valuable input on this, but it's not strictly a concierge question and the Q&A is drifting too far from it's essence with this post. I am moving the thread to the France board

I thought their chicken sandwiches were better than the burgers. The burgers were small and inconsistent (often dry) and overwhelmed by the toppings. Chicken has no flavor of its own, so the toppings carried the day well. Great shakes though. Have we reached the point where grown men with a degree of interest in food have never had a chicken that tastes like chicken?

I meant to ask if anything else had changed at les Bouquinistes besides the name. Are not the book stalls on the quay, or the men who do business there called "bookinistes?"

I'm inclined to disagree entirely with this line of reasoning. I believe the tourist has some responsibility to abide by local conventions and some responsibility in learning what these are. The worst part of allowing one's own convention to govern is that it means American waiters are likely to be stiffed or under-tipped by foreigners traveling here. I don't think it's inappropriate to tip as much as 10% in Paris, but I wouldn't tell anyone that's an appropriate tip as I don't believe it is expected. How much I left on the table at Gagnaire is really between myself and the staff, but I suppose I could have doubled it for the price of aperitifs, or I could have stiffed them and taken a cab both ways instead of the metro and a walk back to the hotel. I think it's unfair to use the term "get away with" when one knowingly complies with what one has good reason to believe is proper and expected behavior. My rough guide is 2 1/2% to 5% rounded off. What really puzzles me is tipping wait staff when staying in a country inn and settling the bill as one checks out. I have never seen a guest leave cash on the table. I did once at Marc Meneau's place in Vezelay, see a guest try to leave a tip with the cashier to be distributed among the staff. He was politely, but very firmly told that service was included and that they had no way to distribute the cash. It strikes me that where tips are expected in a first class establishment, they are pooled and distribution would not be a problem, assuming the tip is in any way anticipated. I do tip the chambermaid and the porter who carries my bag, or the person who helps me at the curb. It's always accepted, but sometimes I am genuinely convinced it is unexpected. I believe the service charge includes only those things that are not done for you in person and the chambermaid tip is just an old practice that lives on. Most people I've talked to do the same as I. The concierge also gets tipped, although I don't make all that much use of one and never know how much to tip. At a hotel my wife uses for her clients, we may use the concierge to meet him and as an excuse to tip him for services rendered to her clientele.

I don't think there's a single guide that's so dependable you couldn't use another. Anyone staying in Paris for less than a month could probably find all the restaurants he needs by combing through the posts here, but that's not to say something hasn't been missed or that someone hasn't recommended a restaurant that meets everyone's approval. Nevertheless the moderate part of the price scale has been well covered here even if there haven't been long homages to specific meals. I don't think that sort of thing is always going to be reserved for the haute cuisine and high art dinners. I don't see any mention of the GaultMillau guides. If you read a bit of French, you'll find their blurbs useful. Comparing rations of points to price may also give a rough estimate of value. Most of all I wouldn't overlook the value of the Michelin guide at the low end. Restaurants with extrememly low prices are featured as are restaurants that offer especially good value. Look for the two coins and the bib gourmande symbols to find these recommendations. The Michelin has it's Paris listings by arrondissement and for those times when proximity is of foremost concern, you can easily look for a restaurant near where you are. Generally speaking, when I'm not in the mood for an extravagant meal, if a restaurant looks inviting, it's prices seem reasonable (all restaurants must post menus with prices on the street) and it's in the Michelin Guide, I'm encouraged to try it.