jackal10

I'm knee deep in Eurobumpf - trying to act as project manager coordinating a proposal to the European Comission with a deadline of next week, so my time is limited. Cat herding. Looks good so far. Maybe overkill, but very interesting if you can manage it. I've never done a side by side test, and its something I meant to do.

ooh this is interesting... I think you either have to minimally develop the gluten (short mix, then stretch and fold), or go all he way and over develop it (intensive mix, then relax). Yu can make good bread either way. However the problem here is we don't seem to be getting any rise at all. Maybe the environment is such it just needs much longer, or something is killing the yeast. We need to sort that out first, before the fine details of technique,

hmm..maybe the slow process isn't right then. However we need to do something just to get it moving at all, even if the bread is not optimal. AS you say, monitoring might be the way. When you make the dough tomorrow shorten the mix time to say 1min, just in case it is overheating. Cut off 100g and put it preferably in a glass measuring jar, or failing that straight-sided tumbler (they are called slim jims here), and mark how far up it comes. Keep it with the bread. It should about double in volume when the bread is ready to bake...It will at least let us see if there is any activity.

I wonder if using the stretch and fold method of mixing might give more control: Here's how. Its essentially a version of Dan Lepard's method. Instead of using the mixer to make the dough, mix by hand (or a spoon) in a bowl. Doesn't have to be perfect, just roughly even. Cover the bowl and leave for 10 minutes. Wash off the bits of dough stuck to your fingers After 10 minutes Oil your work surface and your hands, turn out the dough onto the work surface, Basically you need to need to stretch and knead 30 seconds or so - for example fold in three, sides to middle, then top to bottom, then form a ball as you have been doing. Wash out the bowl and lightly oil it, then put the dough back in it, cover it and leave in a warm place for another 10 minutes. Do this twice more - half an hour in all. Cut off about 100gm of dough and put it in a glass measuring jug, if you have one, and leave it in your warm place. This is your tell-tale and timer. The dough should roughly double in volume by the time the bread is ready to bake. Then do the same stretch and fold every half an hour for another 2 hours, or until you see little bubbles appearing when you make a cut in the dough. If the bubbles aren't there leave it longer, stretching and folding every hour until they appear. When the small bubble are present, shape the dough and leave in warm place, covered for 2 hours or so before baking.

I'm really really puzzled. Lets take it form the top. You make the preferemetn with 100g of waer and 100g of flour and a spoonful of mother starter You ferment this for 12 hours at 30C until bubbly (I've seen it) You then mix all the preferment with 500g of flour, 300g of cold water and 12g of salt (the Vit C helps but is not essential) Shape and let prove at 30C for 2-4 hours... Bake at 250C roughly for 40 mins. Something must be killing the yeast during or after you have mixed it. How hot is the dough when you take it from the mixer? Should be warm, not hot...

Fingers crossed...don't forget to turn the fan off

So do Nisbets http://www.nisbets.co.uk/products/ProductD...roductCode=A315

What do you do for Hechsher (official certification of being kosher). Do you have to have resident rabbinical supervision? Here in the UK it is (or was - I've not been involved for many a year) highly political with differing rabbinical organisations refusing to recognise each other, and in some ways an extortion racket - "you want our congregation as customers, you pay our enormous fees".

I'll add my Bravos and encouragement... I agree wih Devlin that the knobs at the end are just the local baker's nice touch. Those look good. Bakers love to talk - not enough people share their passion, and maybe you could enlist their help or even spend a night working in their bakery... The idea of lining the couch with baking parchemnt is OK, but he parchement stops the bottom of the bread breathing and forming a skin that evenutally forms the crust, so as Devlin says sprinkle it with some cornmeal or he lik first. I'm glad other people are joining inthe advise here.. Yes the magimix does gum up. Helps a bit if you put the flour in first then add the water with the mixer running. Later we can try hand mixing/stretch and fold, but lets get he basics right first. I'm still puzzled about the sticking. Its characteristic of very wet dough, and 66% isn't that wet. However the dough gets wetter during proof, and I wonder if we are still overproving so 2 hours, which seems short, might be OK. Luck, and fingers crossed...

Mince them and make hamburger or even wurst.

The oven spring pretty well the same whether its a pan or a couche. The texture is a bit denser, since you don't get the same heat transfer as contact with a hot surface. The pans are a bit flatter than a couche, and will give you a stipple pattern and softer on the base.

sigh...lots of flour on the couche, Use the same cloth each time and don't wash it - sterilise it by drying it out in a low oven. It builds up a sort of easy release layer. Some people use rice flour, A slightly drier dough can help, but we did that, You can get baguette pans made from silpat like material or even tin, and proof them in those. Grease them well, or you just get the cooked loaves stuck. They always leave an impression on the bottom of the loaf, so traditionalists disapprove. The blade used to slash is called a lame (blade in french)

Pacing up and down nervously...

grinya---french for grin I don't slash before it rises. That does a differnt thing, and compromises the outer layers that hold the gas in while its rising and give you a smaller rise. Slashing not very deep, really just to direct the tear, just before it goes in the oven plus steam gives best results.

Slashes in bread (called grigne) are a whole topic on their own. Use a very sharp thin knife - traditionally a razor blade on a stick, except for seeded breads and breads with lots of bits in when a serrated knife sometimes works better Cut at 45 degrees to the surface - you are cutting a flap. Cut postively, and quickly. I prefer to cut just before putting the bread in the oven. You are punctuting the surface so the bread will start to deflate, before the heat starts turning the water to steam to inflate the bread again. The biggest cause of poor, narrow, grigne is overproving.

I'd go with it, if thats what you feel like! Lets see the baguettes before you bake though, they may need an extra hour...they should look like they have inflated a bit

The interesting thing is why is yours different?

Here is one I made this morning. Essentially the same method; strong flour (12% protein); 2 hours proof, then overnight in the fridge. The only difference was her I experimented with using higher proportion of preferment: 33% of the total flour (200g flour, 200g water in the preferment, 400g flour, 220g water in the dough). Gives a more pronounced sourdough taste, which I think I prefer. I must try again with softer flour - I had run out, to give a better texture, and I'd like to do a side by side comparison with a stretch and fold method.

It starts stiffer, but as the acid and the enzy,es in the sourdough attack the starch it gets wetter as it matures. I really would reduce the proof time Wet preferments are usally 100% hydrated (equal weight of flour and water). If made with yeast the term poolish is used, but for sourdough liquid leaven is more normal.

Oh dear! Alas alack! I'm very puzzled, it all looked like it was going so well. The dough often deflates some when you slash it, but it recovers in the oven. Maybe it was that pause with the preferment overnight, but I often do that, and the fact that the dough deflated showed there had been some activity. However it does look like the the bread has been somewhat overproved - wet and little oven spring. Another thought. Did you use bottled water for the dough? I know you did for the preferment, and if your local water has a lot of chlorine in it that can affect the yeast. I'd suggest: a) A little less water - maybe 300g to make the dough easier to handle. Different flours adsorb different amounts. b) A little less proving time. You might try refrigerating overnight pretty well as soon as you have shaped the dough. I used to do that with some success. Now I tend to prove for 3-4 hours and bake straight, although I have in the oven now some baguettes that I proved for 2 hours and then refrigerated overnight and they have sprung fine. You might want to prove for 3 hours hen bake, then add the refrigeration step when the basic dough is OK. I do hope you will persevere....

Lori: The mother starter lives in the fridge. When you wan to bake you take a tablespoon of the mother and make the preferment. That needs to sit at 90F for about 12 hours. If the jar of mother culture in the fridge is looking a bit low, make a double batch of preferment and put half bake in the mother. The dough needs to proof at 90F for about four hours, or two hours at 90F then as long as you like, within reason, in the fridge, reckoning the dough takes about 2 hours to cool down from 90F.

If you compare the two pictures I think I see there is some rise. Yes, the dough can go cold into the oven, Be sure to slash it well, or it will tear.

Entirely up to you. The results are slightly different, and I prefer the retarded (fridge) version. The crust in retarded loaves has characteristic fine bubbles, and is slightly redder, due to the extra sugars.

Sorry to be late checking in. Both me and the computer had trouble waking up. The bread looks great! The leaven will wake up when it gets more food, its hungry After 2 hours the dough will begin to move a bit, but probably not double. Its quite a subtle change. The major volume increase will come from spring in the oven, and its better for the dough to be under proved than over proved. Are you going to put it in the fridge, or let it prove for 4 hours and bake it today?

umm...most of the world uses the metric system. However nothing to be afraid of. 30C is near enough 90F. To convert C to F multiply by 9, divide by 5 and add 32. Roughly double and add 30. You do really need a scale. The digital scales are easy and comparatively inexpensive. A digital scale and a digital thermometer will make your cooking a lot more accurate and reproducible - although there is one person I know who claims measuring anything takes the soul out of it. Most digital scales let you switch from imperial to metric. Volume measures for dry ingredients like flour are much less precise and depend on the type of flour, the humidity and how tightly packed. Easy conversion is that 1oz is roughly 25g, so 100g is 4oz, and 100g/4oz is near enough one cup, although strictly one cup is 113g white flour on average. Water being denser a cup weighs 229g, so 100g is roughly half a cup. So we have been talking about 90F and a cup of flour and half a cup of water. Making sourdough starter is easy, you just need patience. The bugs are already present in the flour, you just have to give them the right environment to breed. Take a cup of flour and half a cup of water. You can add a tablespoon of rye flour and some diastic malt if you happen to have some as they have the enzymes to promote growth, but it works fine without. Don't add sugar or fruit. Mix them together and put them, covered, in a warm place - 90F. Leave for about 4 days, or until its bubbly, stirring everyday. Now throw 2/3rds away and add another cup of flour and half a cup of water and stir, and leave overnight in the warm or until its bubbly. This step, called refreshing, gets rid of a lot of the junk and waste, and promotes the growth of the right bugs. Refresh a couple more times, and you are ready to bake, or to store the starter int he fridge until you need it. Alternatively PM me your snail mail address and I'll send you some of mine.