afoodnut

Ah... except that it's making a comeback, at least at Grand Sichuan International Midtown, it is. mags, As an "old timer" who grew up in NY, but left as a young adult, I just want to add that egg rolls, shrimp with lobster sauce, and lo mein were the dishes on most NY Chinese menus in the 40's, 50's, and 60's. Those dishes were not necessarily an "upper-middle" choice, rather, what was on the menu. The restaurants were primarily Cantonese influenced, not Szechuan influenced (I'm using the word "influenced" to avoid getting into an "authenticity" debate). Kung pao chicken and the like weren't much available before the Szechuan restaurants started opening in NY in (I think) the '70's. I became aware of those differences when I first visited San Francisco in the 60's, and discovered Szechuan Chinese food, which I had not seen in NY. edited for punctuation and clarity.

In my dim recall, Rumplemayer's was the place to go for Ice Cream Sundaes. It might have been on Central Park South (perhaps in a hotel?). I don't know when it closed; I left NY when I was a young adult, moving to Chicago for law school, and then west from there, and I didn't really keep up with the New York food scene until my discovery of egullet. Was there also an ice cream place called Serendipity or something similar?

And my maternal grandfather, great aunts, and great uncles just might have been sitting at the table next to them. This entire thread is fascinating; it highlights for me that there probably is no "typical" experience, and I hesitate to support robyn in saying that her *husband's experiences aren't atypical for most people his age in the US'*. If we all lived the same lives, and had the same experiences, there would be no point to telling our stories. I'm thinking that the reason Fat Guy asked for us to tell of our memories was for him to learn of some of the differences and find some similarities in experiences from different people who at least at this point in their lives consider food to be a major interest. We did not all start from the same place, background, and culture. I daresay I'm in the same age range as Robyn; I was the youngest in our family, and my brother and sister, who are both over 60, shared our family experience. Our experience was typical of our friends and family, in that time and place. I hope to hear more stories from more parts of the U.S. and the rest of the world.

Okay, I'll try to comment focusing on a few of these questions, adding some more detail to my earlier posts. Overall, I think the biggest difference to be that restaurants were more local and regional. You *could* tell where you were by the food served in restaurants. And you could be pretty sure that humans prepared your food. To put my view in perspective, I was a child in NYC in the 1950's. My family was middle class Jewish; Our home was kosher, but we did not keep kosher out of the home. (Because of that, I had one very important personal quirky standard; I always tried to order food that could not be kosher, since we couldn't have it at home. So I ate shrimp, and lobster, and pork, and steamers, and veal parmagiana [unless of course we were at a kosher deli].) We ate at restaurants virtually every Sunday. My father always said that he considered Sunday my mother's day off, and she should not need to cook. (That was different from not cooking on Saturday, which was tradition because of Sabbath.) Going to restaurants was a regular part of our life, and going to "fancy" restaurants for special occasions was part of that. But the emphasis of the occasion was more social, rather than focusing and requiring concentration on the food in the way of a French Laundry or a Charlie Trotter's. Perhaps fancy restaurants then were more focused on serving food that pleased diners, rather than serving food that would impress diners. Our food in general was more local and seasonal. So there was less variety, but probably better quality. Food didn't travel so far. As far as ingredients we used at home, the egg-man from New Jersey delivered eggs, pickles, and sour tomatoes to us weekly. The milkman delivered milk fresh from his New Jersey farm. During the summer there was another truck farmer from New Jersey who delivered vegetables. There was also the seltzer man who delivered seltzer in the blue bottles with the pressurized lever top (I can't remember what that was called.) He picked up the rechargeable empties the next week, when he delivered. The local bakery baked rye breads, and pumpernickel, and onion rolls, and coffeecakes, and black and whites, and brownies. The appetizing next door to the bakery had all the smoked fish, and salmon salad, and herring, and halvah, and pickles, and olives; the bagel bakery on the other side of the appetizing had bagels (plain, and onion, and salt; they also had bialys.) There were certainly no avocadoes, no kiwis, no chiles, no tortillas or the like; fortunately there also were no jalapeno or sun-dried tomato bagels! I knew Mama Leone was the guiding soul behind Leone's; she was long dead by the time I was eating in her restaurant, but it was clear that her recipes and food lived on. Early "food celebrity" names I remember are ones like Julia Child, and Craig Claiborne, and MFK Fisher, and James Beard, not those of chefs. When I think about it now, Alice Waters with Chez Panisse is probably the first celebrity restaurateur I remember hearing of.

It's so interesting to read ruthcooks' post and hear the perspective from the rural midwest as compared to the east. My curiosity got the best of me at the comment that McDonalds came to Chicago first, rather than suburbia, since I have long thought their growth was first in suburbia, so I searched at McDonald's corporate site, McDonald's History, and found that Ray Kroc's very first McDonalds's was actually in Des Plaines, Illinois, (now a suburb of Chicago)

Before going to the theater, we ate at either Pierre au Tunnel, the then new small French Bistro that I believe is still in business (you must excuse me, I did leave NY many years ago, so I'm not up on what's there now), or at the sprawling, loud Mama Leone's for Italian. For French food when we were not going to the theater, Le Veau D'or, (also still in business?) was one of the choices. And of course every NYC neighborhood had a candy store with soda fountain serving malteds and egg creams. The national chains like McDonalds (started in mid 50's in California?) were slow to reach the big cities; they spread through suburbia first. With the growth of the interstate highway system, they started to appear all along the highway. Small towns were often described as too small to have a McDonald's. And later, it became, so small, the only place to eat is at McDonalds. Restaurants and foods were far more regional. In NY, we ate bagels, appetizing, pizza, Chinese(mostly "Cantonese"), Italian, seafood, and deli. For fancy, there was steak and French. I first encountered an avocado on a trip to California. I first tasted a Pot Sticker in a Chinese restaurant in San Francisco in the '60's. That style of Chinese was in San Francisco's Chinatown, not New York's. But I do remember noodle places like Hong Fat's (?) in NY. When I went to law school in Chicago, I discovered Mexican food; that was not on the scene in NY. NY did not at the time have a sizeable Mexican community, and there weren't chains like Taco Bell. Speaking of Chicago, I remember going to RJ Grunts, the first of the Lettuce Entertain You restaurants when it opened (early '70's?) possibly one of the first "concept" restaurants. And of course, Chicago's pizza was nothing like pizza in NY. You went to a restaurant and sat down; you got a pie. Gino's on Superior was down the block from school, so that was my introduction. There was no ordering a slice, then walking down the street eating it. The Berghoff in Chicago was like nothing in NY (and probably still isn't)! And then I discovered the Mexican food in Colorado, so different from Chicago's, and different still from that of New Mexico, and California, and Arizona, and Texas. But many of the regional differences are still here. It is in the national chains that we see the homogeneity. After all, here at eGullet, aren't we always discussing "authenticity"?

Just like in the '50s when the boys on the block told me I could join them in punchball if I could hit the spaldeen past the sewer. And like in the late '60s when I could go to law school if I could think like one of the boys. But I remember too well going to the local pizza place for a slice after school; it cost $0.15 (the same as a subway token), and was eaten folded in half in wax paper, dripping, with cheese stretching beyond arm's length. Edit to add: No toppings on the pizza. It was thin crust, olive oil, tomato sauce, cheese. You could sprinkle red pepper flakes on it. There were shakers on the tables with crushed red pepper. The tables didn't have the red checkered tablecloths; they were bare. You bought slices, not pies. Italian restaurants were different. They'll be the focus of another post. Italian restaurants had the checkered tablecloths, and a more extensive menu.

I'm not yet over 60; ignore me/delete this if you don't want to hear anymore. But I do remember going to New China Inn at Flatbush and Nostrand in Brooklyn with a large Jewish Mishpoche (the whole extended family) in the mid 50's, and hearing my father tell the waiter/waitress/or owner to just bring whatever we might enjoy, then eating food that to this day I remember. And I remember eating at Lundy's in Sheepshead Bay in Brooklyn when there were no white waiters; all the waiters were what were then called Negroes, not African Americans, not even yet Blacks. And all the fish served came from the fishing fleets the FWIL Lundy Bros. owned, and the vegetables came from their farms on Long Island. The fish dinner cost $2.50; the Shore dinner, that included steamers, lobster, chowder, and a whole lot more, cost $5.00. But since I'm not yet over 60, I won't say anymore, unless you tell me otherwise.

Fred- The garlic I planted last fall (also for the first time) *is* poking out of the ground. It is planted on the south side of my house in Boulder. So there's hope.

Um... isn't there an omlette thing associated with Denver? The Denver (here in colorado usually called a Western Omelette) Omelette is not a Denver or Colorado specialty. I don't know the history of the name; does anyone else? Edit to add: the western/denver omelette has ham, green pepper, and onion. The Denver Public Library has a chat-reference feature online. I'm currently asking a librarian. Google was no help.... Edit: OMG, this is the coolest thing. You can chat live with a librarian. Susie the Librarian said that she knows the Western History Department has received this question before, but they're closed today. They'll email the answer within two business days In today's Denver Post, Kyle Wagner's column tells that Food Network was in Denver filming for a show that includes the Denver/Western Omelette. Here's a link to Network focuses attention on Denver's lowly omelette. In the column, she refers to a column she did for Westword a few years ago. Here's a link to that earlier column, The Yolk's on Us, which has an interesting discussion about the origin of the Denver/Western omelette. Edit: To try to fix the oh so messed up quoting, but I only seem to be making it worse.

It was a classic "only in Boulder" scene. I used to own a takeout food and catering business. Our food was by no means kosher, but a significant portion of the business was based on my recipes for food for Jewish holidays. (How's that for avoiding the "kosher style" quagmire?) One beautiful afternoon, years after I no longer had the business, I was hiking with a group of family and friends in Boulder Mountain Park/Open Space. We reached our destination at Royal Arch, and were hanging out, enjoying the view. Another hiker reached the summit, and she looked familiar. She also looked at me for a few minutes, and we both recognized each other. She had been a frequent customer of my business. After we caught up on life, she hemmed and hawed, and finally asked if I would ever consider making my Pesadicher (I'm not sure if that looks obscene or not) chocolate orange wine cake for her, or *gasp* share the recipe. At that point, my daughter walked over, laughing, saying that she couldn't believe we'd be talking about Passover cakes while hiking in the mountains in the fall. I said I'd share the recipe, and gave my email address. Sure enough, when I got home that evening, there was an email waiting for me, asking for the recipe. (I'm happy to share the recipe; if you'd like it too, just PM me. )

Sugar City, Colorado (beet sugar industry)

Salmon River, Idaho.

How about Buffalo, Wyoming (or New York, if you insist)?

And of course there's Fruita, Utah (in Capitol Reef National Park); also named for its orchards.

Great topic Fruita, Colorado to start. Fruit orchards, of course. More as I think about it.

The Denver Public Library has a chat-reference feature online. I'm currently asking a librarian. Google was no help.... Edit: OMG, this is the coolest thing. You can chat live with a librarian. Susie the Librarian said that she knows the Western History Department has received this question before, but they're closed today. They'll email the answer within two business days.... Mudpuppie- Have you heard from the Denver Library with their answer? It will be interesting to see if their information/analysis is similar to that of the column Hollywood linked to.

Um... isn't there an omlette thing associated with Denver? The Denver (here in colorado usually called a Western Omelette) Omelette is not a Denver or Colorado specialty. I don't know the history of the name; does anyone else? Edit to add: the western/denver omelette has ham, green pepper, and onion.

Denver: Green chile, maybe burritos or breakfast burritos.

Note:I edited the the poster's (menton1) name out, because I'm using the quote as a springboard to the hypothetical absurd. What happens if there are two or more women (or even a -gasp- woman alone) dining together, without a man? Do they get the meal free? Or do they have to order without a clue as to what it might cost?

As a follow up to my earlier questions: I face a delightful opportunity. My daughter and I live in the U.S., a country with a legal drinking age of 21. My daughter, who is 17 years old, will be able to drink wine in a restaurant for the first time. (She has had wine to drink in our home and at friends' homes for Seders and Kiddushim etc. all along.) What might be the perfect place for her first time having a "legal" glass of wine in public? paulbrussel's recommendation of "Le Hollandais" sounds like it might be just right. Any others?

Thank you. What is "not too expensive" now in Amsterdam? (Price in euros is fine.) I'm having a hard time getting a grasp on prices for meals now. I'm guessing that after the switch a couple of years ago to the Euro, prices increased? And another question for everyone; if we were to have one meal that is the best available in Amsterdam, at any price, what would that meal be, and about how much would it cost? (I know there are possibilities of Michelin starred meals, but I'd like to hear egullet people's recommendations; I trust those more than Michelin.)

Mongo- I hope you didn't need the information for last night, but I'll answer anyway. Depending on what you're ordering, I think Laudisio is about the same as Full Moon or a little more expensive. Laudisio has a larger selection than Full Moon, with some more expensive choices. For appetizers, salads, pastas, chicken dishes they're similar in price, but meats are more expensive at Laudisio. (If I remember, roughly $7-10 for appetizers; $10-18 pasta; chicken $17-18; meat entrees in the $20's at Laudisio.) Laudisio does not have the pizzas, calzones, subs and low cost choices that Carelli's has; overall, Carelli's is less expensive than Laudisio, but again, depending on what you're ordering, they can be comparable. Did you go to any of them last night (or elsewhere) or is the meal still in the future?

Mongo, You've analyzed it pretty well already. The food at Carelli's is not going to wow you; it's reliable and well prepared, (a good place for a group) but not a peak food experience; it's not the same type of meal or experience as at Full Moon. I do have another suggestion for you, though, if it's Italian you're craving. Have you tried Laudisio at 28th and Iris? It's less the standard Italian American that Carelli's is, it's less the contemporary Colorado that Full Moon is, it's closer to Italian. (My favorite old reliable on their regular menu is the chicken scarpariello.) Good wine list, atmosphere is pseudo Tuscan, warm; It's usually my first choice for Italian in Boulder.

Carelli's is not new. I'm not sure exactly how long it's been around, but I think it's 12 or 13 years in the current location. edit to add: It has changed over the years, going through expansion and extensive remodelling, addition of full bar etc.