KD1191

Well, I'll see if I can reignite things, Dave. The reason I would argue that an Oaxaca Old Fashioned shouldn't be technically considered an Old Fashioned is that you couldn't order it in a bar that didn't have prior knowledge of the recipe and receive anything close to what you were looking for. Tequila Old Fashioned, you know what goes in it...maybe you specify you want them to use a sugar cube not syrup, or what type of bitters, but the constituent parts are defined to anyone with a modicum of knowledge. '<Spirit> Old Fashioned' tells you all you needed to know to make it...

You're not trying to include drinks with curacao within the category of those called "old-fashioned"? If you are proposing a drink with curacao as the only spirit, I'll concede that a Curacao Old Fashioned exists. But, if you're suggesting that a drink with some spirit, sugar, bitters, water AND curacao would properly be called <Spirit> Old-Fashioned and not Fancy <Spirit> Cocktail, I believe you are wrong, and you're trying to expand the definition of what constitutes an old fashioned. Yes, old-fashioned was coined specifically to refer to a bygone state of cocktail. Which is why the idea of evolving the definition is preposterous. At some singular point in time, spirit, sugar, bitters and water defined them both. (ETA: On second thought, this is surely wrong. The very need for the term "old fashioned" implies that cocktail no longer sufficed...meaning that "cock-tail" and "old fashioned" probably did not simultaneous mean the same thing except in retrospect.) But, Cock-tail was evolving and has since become a cesspool, while the Old Fashioned is "a liquid plea for a saner, quieter, slower life". If properly made, a Whiskey Cock-tail and a Whiskey Old Fashioned should be exactly the same drink. By their very nomenclature, however, I'd argue that the maker is far more likely to take liberties with the Whiskey Cock-tail, and that's exactly what's happened over past 100+ years. Suggesting that curacao can rightly belong in an old fashioned only pushes us further into the muck...toward needing another new way to order spirit, sugar, bitters and water.

Never made a qualitative argument. If it's different, it deserves (and has in fact received) different nomenclature. I believe that Curacao would make it "fancy", specifically. With any other drink, maybe, but if one truly understands why it's called an "old fashioned," I can't believe they'd argue for expanding the scope of the classification. The Old Fashioned was the old timer's reaction to all the abuse that the cock-tail was receiving at the hands of those who couldn't not mess with a good thing. The very reason we have a drink called the "old fashioned" today is that people had this same disagreement more than 100 years ago about what constituted cock-tail. If you insist on calling things "old fashioned" that aren't, we'll just have to come up with a new word for it...it's extremely inefficient. Then you shouldn't mind calling drinks that don't fit the definition of an Old Fashioned something other than "Old Fashioned"...

An Old-Fashioned is a Cock-tail. Lest we forget that we're not talking about a specific recipe here, but a family of drinks consisting of spirit, sugar, water and bitters. A dash (or two) of curacao doesn't change the drink in such a way that it isn't part of the same family. Do we need a Venn diagram? Every old-fashioned is a cocktail, but not every cocktail is an old-fashioned. If you start adding things to an old fashioned, even though they be perfectly fine cocktailian ingredients, it ceases to be an old fashioned. Your argument is the very definition of a false sylogism, as mkayahara mentioned. Cock-tails may contain curacao. The old-fashioned is a cock-tail. Therefore, curacao may go in an old-fashioned. All men are mortal. Socrates is mortal. Therefore, all men are Socrates.

I'm not a big absinthe drinker, but the Emile Pernot "Vieux Pontarlier" 65 gets a lot of good reviews. My wife was gifted a bottle for her birthday by a bartender friend as she is an absinthe-lover, and she thinks very highly of it. The Leopold Bros. is another that I've heard praised, but I have not tried it personally.

I have to wonder if the EPA will get involved. There's a chocolate factory in Chicago that got in trouble for perfuming the air...though I guess that was technically an issue with the opacity of the smelly substance, not the smell per se.

Just came across a thread over here, where that definition is challenged...it looks like there's some historic basis for thinking a scaffa was just a sort of pousse-café.

Scaffa? I seem to recall seeing this (maybe in Duffy?) classified as spirit/liqueur/bitters, served mixed but unchilled and undiluted.

I was skimming through an original version of Trader Vic's Bartender's Guide last night, and he listed a drink category that starts with "S" and that contains, iirc, base spirit, liqueur, and bitters. Anyone know what this is? Sling?

Did he? It's late, and I may be missing it, but I can't tell from the text of the post that Dave participated in the tasting, or what (if any) his personal opinions were on which sample he preferred. I made a similar comment to the one above on the original post, to which Dave's comment was simply, "Good Point." As with most CI posts, this is something that's "To Be Continued", I assume.

I wonder if there's a certain amount of selection bias involved...how many of these bartenders work in a bar where juice is squeezed a la minute? Probably none. If so, wouldn't it make sense that they'd think there was something off about the fresher juice? They're accustomed to mixing with juice that's at least an hour old if not longer...

2 oz Inner Circle Blue Rum 1/3 oz Hibiscus Simple Syrup Dash Bittercube Corazón Bitters (Ancho Chile, Black Mole, Lime notes) Lime Peel Garnish

Oh, a little maraschino goes a long way...you'll be having Aviation parties in no time, trying to get rid of that extra bottle to make space in your liquor cabinet.

Had a fantastic visit last night...the menu is almost entirely new (Juliet & Romeo, Dark n' Stormy and the Gilded Cage remain but not much else), and of the dozen new drinks I tasted there wasn't a single one that was less than excellent...I'd order them all again. I'll single out the Grave Dancer as easily my favorite Manhattan variation since the Dogwood. I took some pics of the menu, but they're unintellegible. Hopefully Alchemist will post some info for us.

Anything else made by the Carthusians...certainly, Gentiane des Pères Chartreux. Tasted it side by side with Suze a few weeks ago, and opinions were split but I much preferred the monk juice. Their fruit liqueurs are worthy of praise as well. ETA: Tried a Tartufo (truffle amaro) for the first time last night...have no idea what I'd do with it, but the more amaro the better in my opinion.

This thread has some thoughts.

Yeah, I've found that most of the Ambre has been snapped up but the Hors d'age is still lingering around. Sad. Just found about a dozen bottles of St. James "Extra Old" sitting in a close-out bin in a Chicago store...if you're interested, I'm happy to share details. Also in the close-out bin were liters of Neisson Élevé Sous Bois and Réserve Spéciale. I believe these were all marked $30. I grabbed a St. James Extra Old & Neisson Élevé Sous Bois, as well as a La Favorite Blanc from the regular shelves...oh yes, and the surprise of the evening, a single bottle of Inner Circle Blue plucked from the bottom of the bin. I'd never seen Inner Circle in Illinois previously.

For me, it doesn't get better than #5 (phở in Vietnam). Though I prefer the more Northern style served at Phở Gia Truyền in Hanoi, as pictured here: -----> There is NO number 6. Once got a look inside Sushi Daiwa, but the line was about 5 hours long. Hard to beat the Thai curries at Chote Chitr in Bangkok. I'd like to add the greatest place to eat Chicken wings: Elephant & Castle, Temple Bar, Dublin...crave them fortnightly.

Craig is Chef de Tournant at Alinea. He did a lot of the work on the solid cocktails there, and has been doing a lot on the concept for Aviary. He is a fantastic guy (eta: an amazing cook), and has some great cocktail knowledge, but he is not a bartender. The bartender for Aviary is Josh Habiger (formerly of Alinea and Fat Duck, but most recently of the Patterson House). ETA: I totally understand much of the "kvetch"...I'd even agree if I thought the folks in the videos were trying to portray themselves as cocktail experts, but I don't believe they are. I think they're showing off some neat tricks, which may play a part of the ultimate menu, but are far from the end of where this project is going.

All the folks in the videos I've seen so far are chefs...the bartender has yet to make an appearance.

Yes, but I think Sam's critique is valid with regard to the PR we've seen so far, particularly if you're paying primary attention to the taster's reactions to their creations. Everything is really cool or amazing...the mood is consistently giddy or blown away. I think that's what Sam's calling "self-satisfied". If one of us were standing in the room, would we have the courage to say, "Is it that amazing? Really? Compared to <whatever similar thing has been done already>?" There are high hopes for this project, mine among them. I don't doubt they can produce something truly amazing, but we haven't seen it yet.

Oh, I agree for the most part, and so far. But, I'll wait for the bar to serve a drink or two before I judge. Craig has the food science part down and enough cocktail knowledge to be somewhat dangerous, while Josh has some serious mixology chops and above average skills with the rotary evaporator, but only recently actually joined the Aviary team. I expect that what we're seeing of the R&D process is only a shadow of what will eventually come across the bar. We posted pretty much at the same time. I agree though-if anybody can do it, they can. I doubt the "tricky" element of it will vanish though. I mean, that's pretty much what Alinea's about in a lot of ways. I say this counting a trip to Alinea as the best dining experience I've had too. I'll go to Aviary when it opens. Yes, I have no doubt that they will find a way to use the scientific techniques that have made them famous. What I truly hope is that those techniques will be put to uses that enhance the cocktail experience in new and unforeseen ways, just as they have done with dining at Alinea. Given my interactions with all those involved, I would be shocked if they didn't.

Oh, I agree for the most part, and so far. But, I'll wait for the bar to serve a drink or two before I judge. Craig has the food science part down and enough cocktail knowledge to be somewhat dangerous, while Josh has some serious mixology chops and above average skills with the rotary evaporator, but only recently actually joined the Aviary team. I expect that what we're seeing of the R&D process is only a shadow of what will eventually come across the bar.

Been playing around with a Death & Co twist on a Scotch old fashioned called the Bay City Roller... 2 oz Balvenie Doublewood (12 year) +1/4 oz Averna Barspoon Simple Orange Peel They use Asyla, so I imagine I could probably get away with cutting the single-malt with a bit of Famous Grouse or something. The Balvenie 12 makes my favorite Rob Roy, so I thought I'd give it a whirl in this. I think it works, especially if I remember Joaquin's tip not to over stir...this one doesn't have a big sweet spot, it goes from very tasty to flat quickly.

I think there was obviously an attempt to make sure various regions were at least represented, if not entirely equally. For example, The Drawing Room is surely the equal of any of the bottom 10, but The Whistler is a more trendy and potentially surprising pick for GQ to make and it would be overkill to have 3 Chicago bars on the list.