mikec

Byarvin, We agree on some points and disagree on others. Again, since I haven't been to Bobolink or Captain Fresh, I can't really do an accurate comparison. But a few thoughts come to mind. Unless (and they may do this) Captain Fresh catches the fish himself and transports them from the water (in the back of his station wagon) to the store, then I don't see how the store is any closer to the actually producer (or in this case fisherman) than Fairway/Wild Edibles/Citarella. Actually I'd argue the contrary. Since the NYC stores that I just mentioned are relatively big operations, I would bet that they get some of the best selections from the Fulton Market. I will admit to not knowing a ton about the way the Fulton Market operates though. As far as Bobolink or going direct to farms...can you get Roncal, Parmesean, Tomme de Savoie, Cabrales, etc. there? I would assume that you can get wonderful cheese there but if Bobolink is the actual producer, then the selection would most likely be very limited. If I was looking for cheese that Bobolink specialized in then by all means I would give it a try. But a limited selection can only get me so far. I go to the cheese counter at Artisinal and there are 100-150 different cheeses right in front of me. Again, while the idea of going from farm to farm to get apples, cheese, eggs, etc. is very romantic, I can't see it being a realistic way to shop. This thread did start about Route 27. However I piped up in response to your comment that Wegmans was a better market than anywhere in NYC. FWIW, Wegmans is opening in Woodbridge this November. I am sure that I will be a frequent customer. I still don't think that it is a better market than anywhere in NYC. In a bit of a non-sequitor, people kept mentioning a market called Corrado's (in Clifton I think) right off the Parkway. My In-Laws have friends from Maryland that make a special trip there each year to buy groceries. I thought, if it warranted a trip from Maryland, I better check it out, besides, I'm dying for a great market in NJ. My wife and I went when we were in the area. We spent about a half hour browsing around. I couldn't wait to leave. The place had a stench about it that was unbelievable. Plus I didn't see anything that even remotely interested me with the exception of some fresh pasta. I chalked it up to a serious difference of opinion.

I'm gonna have to disagree with your hypothesis. You are taking the best of all the specialty shops in the entire state of NJ (or at least the northern part of NJ) and comparing it to a tiny area called Manhattan. Let's say that you are having a dinner party. Do you pick up cheese in Chester, fish in Edgewater or Watchung, meat at Wegmans, and bread somewhere else? That sounds like a whole day affair to me. If I'm having the same party, I could (for a premium) get every single ingredient I need at Fairway. If I was looking for that extra special fish I would go next door to Citarella. Now to be fair, I've never tried the cheese from Bobolink or the fish from the place that Jason mentions. I would love to do so. But to do so would involve driving an insane amount of miles to sample these places wares. Instead, I can take the 1&9 from my office to the UWS and be back in a half hour. I'm not saying that all these places in NJ are inferior to the markets in NYC. However I'm saying that in order to sample NYC's best it doesn't take much and there are numerous places to do so. To do the same in NJ would involve driving miles and miles and spending many hours. In addition there are less places to do this. Westfield is a wonderful town. I'm just sorry to say that the markets don't match up to the town. I enjoy Teresa's, Mojave Grill, and Chez Catherine (Unfortunately Catherine sold and recently passed away). I love the fact that I can spend time outdoors with my daughter. I love that I don't have to worry if she is playing in the backyard. I love that the golf course is close by. However, having had experience with the NYC markets for many years, I have a hard time finding comparable quality in NYC. I have made notes on all of the places mentioned in this thread. On a rainy afternoon I will try to hit a few of them and report back.

I can't argue one bit about pricing. Food shopping in NYC is expensive. I am no longer a NYC resident, having moved to NJ almost two years ago now. I have yet to find a place in NJ that has fish remotely as good as what is available at Citarella or Wild Edibles. My local fishmonger (Westfield Seafood) is okay for a few items, but to me, the fish often looks just a drop tired. I would much rather pay a few dollars more for outstanding quality. I often shop at the Whole Foods in Madison and Milburn. The fish department at both places is fine, but nothing more than that. There wasn't a piece of fish there that made me want to buy it and cook it. Granted it was Sunday. However, last Thursday evening I was in Citarella on the UWS. I was disappointed that we were having dinner in NYC, because I couldn't believe how many things I wanted to buy from the fish counter. I was in the Whole Foods in Milburn yesterday afternoon. I asked the person at the cheese counter if they had Roncal. He pointed it out to me. It was already pre-cut and saran wrapped with an expired sell by date on it. I couldn't have been more turned off. Today I will stop by the admittedly overpriced Artisinal and pick up some Roncal. Chester is a beautiful area, but about an hour from me. I just can't picture traveling that far for a half pound of Tallegio. I work in NYC, and pick up cheese regularly from Artisinal and Murray's. If we know we want fish for dinner, I stop at Wild Edibles (very expensive) or Citarella. Pretty much every Friday I leave NYC with a small bag of groceries. There is a Town and Country wine shop in Westfield that has some good cheeses that aren't prepackaged. The prices are okay too. My complaint is the limited selection. I'd love to try the fishmongers in Watchung or Edgewater. Watchung is much closer, but still must be at least 20-25 minutes from me. How far is it from Blue Star Shopping Center on Route 22?

Whoa! That's a pretty bold statement. I've been to the Wegman's in Bridgewater. Their pastry selection is wonderful. Produce is outstanding. However the cheese and fish departments left quite a bit to be desired. While Wegman's may be a better overall place to shop than any one store in Manhattan (I still disagree) I'd take the Fairway/Citarella block of the UWS any day. (minus the pastries).

I haven't been in a while, but I suspect MFK is better in the warmer weather. When I've eaten there in the winter, the cold air seeps in right through the windows and I've had to wear my coat while eating. Not exactly what I'm looking for when eating out. The food isn't bad though.

Back in December (if you want to find the post it's in this thread somewhere) I had virtually the same experience as Mark Picone. The food was good, but not great. The Reserve wine pairings bordered on pathetic. I gave the sommelier very specific likes and dislikes. He must not have been listening because it seemed like he ignored everything I said. $180's worth of wine for two people. I could have done much better ordering by the bottle for that amount. A lesson learned.

Turley Hayne Vineyard ? I've tasted both these wines within the same week and the Turley (I'm referring to the '96) is not even close.

FWIW, your meal sounds very similar to the one that my wife and I had (and I reported on) in mid-December, but we clearly had different reactions. I too thought the black tagliatelle w/parsnips and pancetta was a compelling dish. We substituted the pumkin lune for the potato and fennel ravioli. The porcini dish was great with the exception of the uneven plating. My wife's plate had at least double the amount of porcinis. I thought the desserts (sour cherry tart and panna cotta) were okay, but nothing special. The taste, texture, proper preparation of the pasta itself was exceptional. Truly an artform. My problems stemmed from the progression of butter sauces that didn't seem to bother you. Also, we sprang for the riserva wine pairings and found them to be lacking, both in quality and in the attention that was paid to my stated preferences. As I mentioned in the original thread, I will most likely frequent Lupa when I'm looking for a pasta fix. The quality of the pasta there is excellent as well and the surroundings are much less formal. I'm glad that the six of you enjoyed your meal. My wife and I had a very nice time (it was our anniversary). However, if I had to give the overall experience a grade, it would be a B-, and at that price point, I'm looking for more. Take care, Mike

You have to be done by now...inquiring minds want pictures... Does Jose get stuck to the versabond tile cement? Does the Lutron sink meet code? Will Pete by slobbered to death by two vicious dogs? Tune in for an update!

rbm90: I guess that they must have run out of olive oil. Charles: LOL. I love how discussions can cross pollenate. For everyone else out there, Charles and I are avid baseball fan's and the topic of whether or not Barry Larkin is a first ballot hall of famer has been making the discussion rounds amongst our friends. Maranville was served up as a comparison. If any of you are even more curious, Larkin doesn't stand a chance of making it to the HOF, regardless of Maranville. Jason: The comparison to Gramercy was made because its one of the other restaurants that I've eaten at where I've actually ordered the tasting menu. I've been blown away by their vegetable tasting menu. Yet, I've enjoyed, but not been as impressed with the seasonal tasting menu. The comparison to craft stems from a phone conversation with my buddy Yaacov. We were just imagining what the chef would have cooked for us if we spent the same kind of money there. All conspiracy theories should be put to the side.

Steve: I would say that the "generous" pour was the equivalent to the pour that one would get when ordering wine by the glass. The other pours were about 2/3's of a "wine by the glass" pour. Yvonne: I would think that inserting a non-butter based pasta into the mix early on might be helpful. If you decide to go, I'd be interested in hearing about your experience especially since most of the menu would be the same. Yaacov: Thanks bud! I would say that I was underwhelmed by the overall experience. While we had a very nice time, and enjoyed ourselves, given the cost of the meal, I would do things differently in the future. Clearly I would have ordered a bottle of wine rather than the wine pairings. Given the breadth of the wine list, I could have done pretty well. This would have probably brought the cost of the meal down. Plus, I would probably not do the pasta tasting menu again. As we discussed I would be interested to see what the chef at Craft could have come up with at the same price point as this meal.

Steve Klc: The standard wines paired with the pasta tasting menu are printed on the menu and they cost $45/pp for the seven wines. The riserva wines are selected by the sommelier based on the impressions he takes away from our discussions and any substitution that I made to the menu. Thus, our table could be having the riserva pairings and the table next to us could be having it as well, yet we might have different wines from that table. The cost was double the standard pairings per person. Vivin: Regarding the wine selection, see what I wrote to Steve above. The sommelier had free reign to choose the wines. The things he did have to take into account were my stated preferences and the fact that the cost for the pairings is fixed. Thus I can't imagine him pouring me wines from Angelo Gaja, etc. It's almost unfair to compare other tasting menus that I've tried to this one since it was limited to pasta (by our own choice). However, if pressed I would say that I was more impressed with the tasting menus at March, Jean Georges, and the vegetable tasting menu at Gramercy Tavern. The main tasting menu at Gramercy (the last time I had it) included two dishes that I didn't enjoy including the turbot and the fresh bacon. The pasta tasting menu at Babbo was the cheapest that I have tried at a high end restaurant.

My wife and I went to Babbo last night to celebrate our anniversary. It was pretty funny to read through the recent thread about Babbo and then go so soon afterwards. I was looking forward to speaking with the infamous Maitre'd, but I think I may have gotten someone else. I spoke with a very nice, witty, bald gentleman when I arrived. I asked for a table upstairs to which he replied "that won't be a problem." Upon being seated we were handed menus by a person who could only have been the "cocktail waitress at a midwestern hotel". I admit to a small chuckle at the thought. I didn't give the menu too much though because we had previously decided to go with the pasta tasting menu. We did however make one substitution that I will explain later. I spoke with the sommelier for a little bit and decided to go with the riserva wine pairings. We discussed my likes and dislikes including the fact that I don't particularly care for a heavy hand on the oak treatment. I also told him that most of my Italian wine experience was with Tuscany so I would welcome new things. I think that I made a mistake by mentioning that I was much more familiar with French wines than Italian. I think that comment may have come back to haunt me later. We started with an amuse bouch of small pieces of chick pea bruschetta. We have both enjoyed the white bean version many times before at Po. It's very tasty and a nice way to begin the evening. The next course was black tagliatelle with parsnips and pancetta. There really is an art to making pasta. Al dente takes on a whole new meaning with fresh pasta. Again a relatively simple dish served in a butter based sauce that offset the saltiness of the squid ink and the pancetta. This course was paired with the 99 Manicor Sauvignon Bianco "Lieben Aich" from Alto Adige. The sommelier spent a good deal of time telling us about this wine. I found it all interesting but one thing stuck in my mind. He mentioned it was fermented in small oak barrels. I had already mentioned that I didn't like oak so I was surprised at this choice. The wine turned out to be a well balanced Sauvignon Blanc that paired well with our dish. The acidity cut through the rich butter sauce well. The second dish on the tasting menu was a fennel and potato ravioli. However we substituted the pumpkin lune with sage butter. I'm not a huge fan of sweet vegetables in my pasta, but this worked well. My wife really enjoyed the dish. I found interesting that the filling was pureed to smooth instead of left with some chunkiness for texture. Paired with the lune was the 00 Damijan Collio Bianco from Friuli. This was a blend of several grapes including chardonnay also fermented in small oak barrels. Again, although I didn't say anything this was a surprise and I began to wonder if the sommelier had misunderstood my initial comments about my aversion to oak. This wine was atrocious. It reminded me of a California Chardonnay with its burnt, buttery profile. It didn't add anything to or complement the dish either. Up next was the garganelli with funghi trifolati. It was a triangular pasta rolled up into tubes that was served with a porcini butter sauce. So far this was my favorite dish. The porcinis were so rich a flavorful. Once again, I'm impressed with the texture and the taste of the pasta itself. However, I'm now surprised that the first three pastas were served with butter based sauces. I looked at the remaining dishes on the menu and realized that the next dish was served with a butter based sauce too. Even the fennel and potato ravioli that we swapped out was supposed to have a butter sauce too. The funghi trifolati was served with a 98 Carlo Giacosa Barbaresco Montefico. This was very tight and although it helped to have with the food, I was really beginning to become disappointed with the wines. The wine service and the sommeliers explainations of the pairings and profiles of the wines was excellent. Unfortunately I hadn't tried anything yet that warranted another glass or second thought. Up next was Alejandro's pyramids with butter and thyme. Esentially it was a stylized ravioli filled with braised short ribs. While interesting I couldn't help think about my grandmother's homemade kreplach. As the sommelier approached with the next wine, I was gearing up the courage to mention something about the wines when he surprised me with the 95 Quintarelli Valpolicella Classico. I talked about my experience with a 85 Quintarelli dessert wine and the sommelier seemed to perk up a bit. To this point he had been friendly and professional. However, now he seemed excited too. While we were talking about the wine, he kept pouring so we received very large pours of this wine. Very deep and rich it paired well with the kreplach. For our last pasta, we had the pappardelle bolognese. Originally we were going to swap this out for this evening's special pasta which was chestnut tagliatelle with rabbit ragu. This sounded great to me, but you are only allowed one substition, and we were interested in trying one of the signature dishes like the lune. As expected, the bolognese was very good. With the bolognese I expected a Brunello di Montalcino. Instead we got the NV? Morgante Nero d'Avola Don Antonio from Sicily. I was prepared to go back to being disappointed with the wine selection, but this had a distinct nose of black cherry and a richness that I didn't expect. It paired well with the bolognese and I found this to be an intellectually stimulating wine as well. A theme to the main meal was butter sauce (way too much of a good thing) and the high quality of the homemade pasta that is difficult to reproduce at home. The stylized cheese course consisted of apricot and carrot "marmellata" (marmalade) with goat cheese curd (a ball of wet goat cheese). While there was nothing wrong with this dish, it just didn't do it for me. The cheese was paired with the 98 Col d'Orcia Moscadello di Montalcino. The sweetness of the wine worked well with the creaminess of the cheese. Onto the dessert course. It was panna cotta with kumqwats although the menu said saffron panna cotta with pears and cardamom. My wife was served a cranberry tart with ice cream. Both were a disappointment as was the wine paired with it, the 99 Antinori Muffato della Sala, Castello della Salla from Umbria. I didn't find any complexity at all to the wine. A few petit fours and a check and we were on our way. We discussed the meal in depth on the way home. The service which was a concern in the back of my mind was fine. It's not to the level of a Gramercy Tavern, but I had nothing to complain about in that regard. As mentioned before, the pasta was excellent as were the combinations, i.e. parsnips, pancetta, and squid ink tagliatelle. However the rich, heaviness of the butter sauces was too much. I can see serving one or even two dishes with this type of sauce, but four in a row was repetitive and late last evening and this morning I've been slightly queasy. While the sommelier's presentation and professionalism was good, I was disappointed with the wine selections. Several of them flew in the face of my stated preferences and several more were servicable yet unispired. Two choices were outstanding, however you don't get into the Hall of Fame by batting .285. Well, maybe if your an old time shortstop. The wine selections were the biggest surprise of all since several friends who are well versed in Italian wine told me that this was an excellent way to enjoy our meal. They also told me of some outstanding wines that they were poured. Before I rushed back to Babbo I would eat at Lupa, especially when you factor in the prices.

Bushey, Personally I would hold the bottles for about 10 years before trying the first one. Assuming good storage, I think that the 98 is an epic bottle of wine that will gain complexity for about 10-12 years and then drink well for another 10-12. Enjoy, Mike

Marty & Steve, The entire thread was very interesting until certain people got involved with the intent of telling people how to have the discussion or the limits as to what they can say. I always wonder if Parker and Rovani discuss particular individuals from the wine boards while sharing a bottle of wine and some dim sum. While I love Burgundy, I don't get to drink too much of it and thus have little to add to the thread. A number of wine lovers whose palates I respect (both of yours included) have told me they find the WA deficient when it comes to Burgundy but I don't have the reference points to form my own opionion. But I will agree with Marty on this point. Rovani really can't afford to change. The consistency of his palate and his job security depend on it. I can see Steve's point very easily though. Let's assume that PAR will always hate the 93 vintage. Instead of rating it a 68, why not rate it an 83. People who shop by the scores alone will still stay away from a vintage rated 83. Thus the WA remains a consumer advocate and they avoid the melee that a rating of 68 is sure to cause.

Marcus, Most of my experience comes with Rhone wines. But I agree with what Charles has said. If you have calibrated your palate to Rovani that is a good thing. Personally I have found Allen Meadows (burghound.com) tastes more in tune with my own. Mike

Marcus, As many have said, there is no good wine, just good bottles. I suspect a wine like Beaucastel with all its eccentricity (brett, bad corks (89), etc.) would be particularly susceptible to this line of thinking. Plus, as you've said, personal preference plays a part. The 89 preformed very well at this tasting. Consensus was that it would improve for several more years in the bottle. The 90 was just outstanding though. There have been times where I felt the gap was much smaller. However on this evening I thought the 90 was a real step up from the 89. The 79 had a nose that I found hard to get past (even though I can tolerate a good deal of brett). I think that colored my view of this wine. In the flight where the 72, 78, and 79 were poured, I think the group chose the 78, but not by much. So there were plenty of people who enjoyed the 79. The flight that held the 81, 83, and 85 was my flight of the night. The 83 performed very well. However, on this night it was slightly behind the other two wines and my impression was that it won't last as long as the other two. I've had the 83 twice in the past few months and found it to be a wonderful bottle. Unfortunately I only have one more left. The 85 seemed to be drinking particularly well this night. I was surprised at its power. In the flight of the 86 and 88, most people liked the 86. I found it to be off putting on the nose and prefered the 88 which although it seemed like a relatively simple Beaucastel, should continue to develop some more complexity (I hope). While I listed a bunch of wines that didn't do it for me that night, I found them all to be very interesting. I think I would have rather had 10-12 vintages instead of 17 plus 2 starter whites (I left before the 2 dessert wines). Even though I did a good deal of spitting my palate was still very tired by the last two flights 94-97 and 98-00. On the erobertparker.com board, Brad Kane posted detailed notes on the tasting. You might be interested in taking a look at his notes. While I may have disagreed with some of his opinions, it is still very informative. Steve, You have much more experience with older wines that I do, but in my very limited sampling, I have found that the 78 VT I had courtesy of you to have more elegance than I expected and the 66 Beaucastel that I mentioned to be very burgundian. I have also found the same to be true of a wonderful bottle of 70 Beaucastel as well. While these wines seemed to lose their power, they have more than made up for it in their grace. I'm not sure that I would call it losing it's typicity though. The three Beaucastels we had this night from the 70's were not the best wines on the table. Probably sliding over the hill or victims of slightly less than perfect storage at some point in their lives. However, they showed a remarkable consistency of Beaucastel's character. The marked change was noticed in the more recent vintages starting with the 94. They seemed cleaner than the older bottles. FWIW, with a 10 month old at home, I haven't had a chance to get to many offlines, but the ones that I have managed to attend have been exceptional lately. 91 vs 99 Jamet, Jasmin, Ogier, and Gallet 17 vintage Beaucastel vertical 95 CdP Horizontal Plus a great dinner at Fairway. Hope to see you soon. Mike

I would echo Charles' comments. It's worth springing for the Beaucastel tasting depending on what they are pouring. I attended a Beaucastel vertical three weeks ago (with the personable MartyL). We had 17 vintages of the Beaucastel Rouge CdP. Tasted in vintage order were the following: 72, 78, 79, 81, 83, 85, 86, 88, 89, 90, 94(magnum), 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 00. The best wine for current drinking: 81 followed closely by the 85. The best wine for future drinking: 90 and 98. Wines that were interesting from an intellectual standpoint, but didn't really do it for me in this lineup: 72, 79, 86, 88, 94, 96 Worst wine of the evening by a mile: 97 A few comments: Clearly there was a change in winemaking styles or a clean up of the cellars, or something beginning with the 94 vintage. The barnyardy characteristics that have made Beaucastel distinct for years were gone. However they are replaced with a different yet equally beautiful profile. I've had the opportunity to try the 89 and 90 side by side a number of times and each time the 90 has outperformed the 89. While the 89 is an outstanding wine, IMHO the 90 is a step up. The 83 is a very nice wine, but a step down from the 81 and 85 and I suspect it is coming to the end of it's optimimal drinking life. I had a 66 Beaucastel about 1.5 years ago now. It was an absolutely beautiful wine. Like drinking a grand cru burgundy. Powerful, yet elegant.

Damain, A very reasonable answer. I think that I missed the bit about the captain, not the sommelier suggesting the wine. Mike

Damian, I'm in agreement with you...correct service and a satisfying experience beats "quantity" anyday. But I'm still curious as to what you think the manager would have been able to do to make you happier (that hadn't already been done). Should they have taken the $85 charge for the Uva off of your bill? Comped you the wine since it wasn't up to snuff? I'm not trying to be sarcastic or obnoxious. I'm just curious as to what the restaurant could have done to make the experience "right". I posted a similar topic a while back on one of the wine boards that I frequent. What happens when you get a bottle that is not damaged (corked, cooked, oxidized, etc.) but just not to your liking (didn't like the cassis or cherry profile, would have been happier with the garrigue or plummy profile). I don't recall the response anymore. FWIW, I agree that it is sometimes helpful to speak with management when you feel that it will help. Who knows what will happen. They may suggest that you come back the next night on them. But then again they may apologize for any misunderstanding and that's it. Take care, Mike

Damian, I'm sorry to hear about your experience as well. However, they comped you and your wife 2 glasses of wine for the wait and a dessert for the miscommunication about the special. This probably deserves another thread, but what else would you have liked them to do? Mike

Lou, I got ya beat by a week. I'll let you know what I think on Friday. Mike

(Actually, IMO, Po has degenerated since Mario left, but that's another story entirely.)

To look at a real life example, take the loss of mom and pop stores around the country as mass marketers proliferate. This is market efficiency at work.

This is exactly what I'm getting at in a more verbose fashion. I can see how ordering an expensive bottle of wine might generate an extra amuse bouche or dessert or some sort of special attention. However I can't see how the absence of an expensive wine would generate a sub-baseline experience. One may get a less than stellar experience, but I doubt it has anything to do with the wine. More likely an off night.