Felonius

September 30, 2003

OK, Fat Guy - I swallowed my Southern pride and trecked down to Daisy May's the other day. I thought the ribs were quite good, although certainly not world-class. I was fighting a rather nasty cold at the time, so perhaps my taste buds weren't calibrated well enough to give a fair evaluation. I sampled both the the dry and sticky ribs, though I didn't find them all that much different from one another in terms of taste. The char (or whatever one calls the outside cooked area) was good, and they certainly had a fine dose of smoky flavor. This is really a matter of personal preference, but I found them to be a bit too fatty for my taste. I like ribs that have been smoked in such a way that more of the fat has been burned off, almost in the way that really good duck confit retains the flavorful skin but not so much of the fat beneath. I know that "dry" ribs may connotate less sauce and a dry spice rub, but in my mind it also means less fat and a bit chewier texture to the rib. So I was a bit disappointed to find the texture of the sticky and dry ribs to be much the same at Daisy May's. As for sides items, I tried the beans, creamed corn, and sweet potatoes. I liked the beans a lot - good smoky flavor with chunks of pork debris. The creamed corn was average (then again, how much can one really do with creamed corn?). The sweet potatoes were the only major strike out. They had little flavor, and almost tasted as if they'd been mixed with regular mashed potatoes. I've had better sweet taters at public school cafeterias in the South, no kidding. I think my favorite part of the meal was the tea in a Mason jar. It's the first decent sweet tea (a Southern substitute for water at every meal) I've ever had in NYC, and had a good musky tea flavor with just the right amount of sugar. I'll go back to Daisy May's just for a sweet tea fix!

Overall, I'd rate Daisy May's a B to B+ in the great scheme of Barbecue. Given the competition (or lack thereof) in NYC, I'd rate it an A+. Now I need to go back to Blue Smoke and see how it compares. Any thoughts on this Fat Guy?

By the way, the meal combo special seems to have been 86'd at Daisy May's. They are now selling the ribs and sides a la carte only.

August 27, 2003

Dumpling, thanks for the thorough review. I eat at LH fairly often, and found your review to mirror my experiences there.

My two cents on Les Halles:

Noisy and cramped (but that's part of its personality)

Reasonably good service

Great frites, even better when dipped in sauce with hanger steak

Very good to excellent hanger steak, lots of flavor

Intriguing, reasonably priced wine list from good producers

Excellent bar selection (the only place I've ever seen Belle de Brillet in the USA outside of Daniel Boulud's restaurants)

I usually stick to the hanger steak/frites/salad combo for $17.50. One of the best bangs for the buck in NYC I think. I don't bother ordering expensive specials or higher end steaks at Les Halles, as there are better dining options in that price range.

August 27, 2003

there's no Santa Claus!
Stop talking crazy, dude.

How can I? The craving for a perfect slab of dry ribs pushes the limits of my sanity :wacko: . It almost makes my weekly "not long refrigerated" Kung Pao chicken cravings seem controllable.

Gotta run, I think I hear someone landing on my roof with a sack of ribs from Tuscaloosa....

August 27, 2003

Well, that's the kind of thing they said about Mike Mills, who came out of nowhere and now is regarded as one of the top pitmasters in the game. The thing is, for all the mysticism and hype, barbecue is smoked meat. There's no gene or spell that makes someone more qualified to do it than anyone else. If you can master it, you can master it. If you can't, you can't. The primary handicaps a New York-based pitmaster faces have nothing to do with lack of innate ability. Rather, they have to do with audience expectations, environmental codes, and various other pitfalls of doing business in the city.

I know, I know - your logic is sound. But you can't take the mysticism out of the ribs for a true Southerner. It's like telling a kid there's no Santa Claus!

Spending days tracking down the shed in a back alley with some 70 year old lady hunched over a pit smoking ribs is part of the religion of BBQ. I'm not going to tell you where this place is - you'll have to go to Savannah, GA and search for the holy grail yourself - but if you do find it don't forget to order a piece a red velvet cake made by the pit lady's 90 year old mother.....

As for Blue Smoke, I should give it another try. I went shortly after it opened and wasn't all that impressed. Then again, the place is probably too expensive and sterile to inspire me to eat BBQ no matter how good. Last time I ate there, I kept looking up for a lightning bolt from my Grandpa to come down from the nether regions and strike me dead for paying $30 for ribs and a few sides. I've got higher hopes for this new place you found, as at least the location has a bit of soul to it. :cool:

August 27, 2003

Fat Guy, are the dry ribs pork or beef (they'd better be pork!)?

Thanks for the heads up. As transplanted Southerner in NYC, I have been jonesing for decent ribs for years. I'm damn skeptical that a guy from Daniel consulting with someone from Le Cirque could ever produce a decent slab of ribs, but I will go forth to 11th Ave with an empty stomach and open mind......

August 26, 2003

Oh, and yes, apparently the rib steak at S&W that they sometimes call Colorado Rib (a cowboy rib cut, I believe) and hand-sell when it's available is distinguished by an additional week or so of aging.

I now recall hearing it listed as a special on occasion, but never ordered it. That and Bull & Bear are now on my to-do list when I get back to NYC.

Thanks again for the replies to my questions. :smile:

August 24, 2003

At the same time, a double-cut strip is almost always preferable -- assuming similar meat quality -- to a regular strip. I think the double-cut strips at both Strip house and, yes, Smith & Wollensky are excellent. Smith & Wollensky is an interesting case because it has quite a range of steaks. The best steaks there are the double-cut strip and the extra-heavily-aged rib that they call by a couple of different names.

Fat Guy, what exactly is a double-cut strip? Also, what do you mean by "extra-heavily aged" rib steak at S&W? Is this cut is aged for a longer period than their NY Strips?

And while I'm at it, do you think I should I pay visit to Bull & Bear, given the Sparks/S&W options down the street? I tried to go some time ago, but it was closed for a period after 9/11.

And thanks again for your outstanding steakhouse review from years past. One of the most thoughtful and thorough food reviews I've ever read. It was one of the first things that caught my eye on your website, and led me to follow (and respect) your reviews thereafter.

August 24, 2003

My vote goes to the strip ("sirloin" on their menu) at Spark's as #1 in Manhattan for flavor, quality, and consistency. However, I have recently dined more often at Smith & Wollensky's back bar, mainly because I prefer the casual atmosphere and ability to just walk in with no wait. I think S&W's steaks are also some of the best in NYC for dry-aged flavor, but the quality/consistency of strip cuts isn't up to par with Spark's. I've had some overly fatty and/or stringy strips once in a while at S&W's, but never once a problem in many, many visits to Sparks. On the other hand, I think S&W's has markedly better hash browns, creamed spinach, and other side items than Sparks.

August 24, 2003

When did the chef leave, and who is the new one?

I used to eat lunch at Lutece fairly often. It's seldom crowded and the prix-fixe ($29 for three courses) is steal. I've never eaten dinner there, as I have doubts Lutece is up to some of the competition (Daniel, Cafe Boulud, Jean Georges, etc.) if one is paying full price for dinner.

I've had some highly satsifying food at Lutece, occasionally exceptional, and I'd rate it about a 7.0-8.0 out of ten for overall dining experience. High points, in my humble opinion are the apple tart and molten chocolate cake. These are very simple/classical renditions, but are perhaps my favorite desserts in NYC. The chocolate cake is wonderfully rich, but not too sweet, and is offset by some barely sweetened whipped cream and a hint of verbena. The apple tarte is thin, with wonderfully light pastry, and the apples and sugar are caramelized perfectly. They're both my idea of "comfort food" and have kept me coming back to Lutece.

Other things I like about Lutece:

Excellent service - very professional, efficient, and courteous. I wish more NYC restaurants had old-school waiters like this, who know that the customer comes first. I'd like to send the Babbo staff to Lutece for a few weeks' training.

Quiet dining room - a rare find these days in NYC. The tables aren't cramped together, the acoustics are subdued, and the room offers a tranquil escape from the bustle outside. I used to go at opening time (noon) for lunch, and could have easily taken a nap in between courses without being disturbed. Not the place for a high-energy date, but great for business or more intimate conversation.

Wine - they usually have some very nice wines by the glass. Only a few choices, but usually better than than the typical 2001 generic chardonnay or mediocre California cab. They used to have a 1998 Gevrey-Chambertin from Georges Roumier that was lovely, but I think I drank it all.....

People watching - often some quality entertainment offered up by the blue haired "ladies who lunch" and/or the UN delegates from around the world wearing all sorts of interesting getups (I've actually seen a guy wearing a Fez - cool!)

Anyway, well worth $29 for lunch if you're in the neighborhood. I suppose I should fork out the bucks for dinner and come back with a more relevant review.

I will continue to give them my lunch money, and hope they're around to stay. Maybe not the most exciting French food in NYC, but the restaurant does offer a certain old-world charm and style that is a rare find these days.

August 22, 2003

Danube and Wallse aren't particularly comparable in my mind, despite the Austrian theme. While both offer a sort of Austrian-inspired nouvelle cuisine, I'd say that Wallse is the more "Austrian" of the two. Danube's chef has also moved away this theme over time, and I'd say that the food there is much more French or Continental than Austrian these days.

A few other thoughts:

Danube is considerably more expensive.

Danube is much more formal.

Wallse has more of a casual, artsy feel - befitting its location in the West Village.

Danube has perhaps the most beautiful dining room in NYC.

I have enjoyed Wallse, though I'm not the biggest fan of their type of cuisine.

I have eaten at Danube many times, though not in the past 6 months. While the food has never impressed me as much as some of the competition in its price range (i.e. Daniel, Cafe Boulud, Jean Georges), I have thoroughly enjoyed my meals there. The setting is very romantic, and feels more like 1920's Paris or Austria than 21st century NYC. The service has always been excellent, much better than at its neighbor Bouley. The Austrian wine list is one of the most extensive you'll find in America, and the staff can be relied upon to give good wine advice to the uninitiated. The manager, Walter Kriejeck (spelling?) is a great guy - one of the few truly hospitable restaurant managers I've found at a high-end NYC restaurant (why can't Babbo have a guy like this?). He loves to talk about food and wine, and has entertained me in the bar over a good bottle of Kracher with amusing stories from his long career in the business.

The moral of the story? Give Danube a try! Now that I think of it, it's time for me to pay them a visit too....

One more thing, be sure to try their house "Danube cocktail". It's champagne flavored with elderflower essence, I think. A bit sweet, but VERY good in my opinion.

August 14, 2003

Now, there's no excuse for rude or abusive service, and I'll be the first to say that Babbo has a less than impressive long-term track-record in this regard. But the restaurant should be viewed in the context of its price point and what it's trying to do. If you go there expecting a four-star experience, you will never be satisfied, because it is not, never will be, and doesn't want to be a four-star restaurant. If you go there expecting excellent value and really good food in a relatively casual, noisy setting with service that meets or exceeds the norms in the price range, you should be okay most of the time.

As usual, Fat Guy has hit the nail on the head. Thanks for bringing some logic to this thread :smile: . Now that I think of it, I probably have set my expectations too high in general for Babbo over the years. The exceptional food has always led me to include it in my NYC "Top Ten", but it is fundamentally different from most of the others in terms of price point and atmosphere.

Although this doesn't excuse rude behavior on the part of some of the staff, it does explain some of the other service shortcomings (i.e. more pressure to turn tables than at places like Daniel or Jean-Georges).

August 14, 2003

Does anyone here know which came first in NYC, Gray's or Papaya King, the chicken or the egg?

I cast my favorite dog vote for Gray's, but I'm no expert in this realm as compared with other egulleteers.

The Gray's at 72nd and Broadway has been a regular stop for me ever since I moved to NYC, and is the most satisfying meal-to-dollar ratio to be had in NYC in my opinion (what else can one buy in NYC for 75 cents other than a pack of gum?).

August 14, 2003

I started reading this thread because I was planning on eating at Babbo during my next trip to the City.
not so sure anymore.

Coolranch, I wouldn't let this thread dissuade you from trying Babbo. Despite my criticism and that of others about the service, I would definitely recommend you give it a shot. The food is outstanding and very creative. "Molto Mario" ain't famous for nuthin'! The biggest hassles at Babbo are trying to get a reservation and getting past the obnoxious maitre'd. I have eaten there many times and have found the service to be OK, if not always the most friendly or gracious.

I would take these posts with a grain of salt. Many of the folks on this board are food-crazy New Yorkers, who are spoiled by eating at some of the best restaurants in the country on a regular basis (me included :biggrin: ). My expectations for both food and service are extremely high when discussing NYC restaurants. I stopped regularly patronizing Babbo, not because the food wasn't up to par (it's some of the best of it's type I've had in the USA), or because the service is terrible (it isn't terrible, only less than what it should be), but because I have several other options down the street in NYC that serve equally good food and have better service. Even so, I will visit Babbo from time to time, because I think they do certain things (i.e. super rich, flavorful, and innovative pasta dishes) better than anyone in NYC. If you're intrigued by Mario's cuisine, by all means go see and taste for yourself!

August 13, 2003

I'm curious if there is anything to how people's experiences rate based on where they sat in Babbo.

I've sat in all three locations, and the upstairs is the most comfortable for a serious dinner due to a lower noise level. I actually don't mind the tables up front by the window if I'm on a casual date. I kind of like the less formal and lively feel of that area. The service can suffer there though, because it's harder for the waitstaff to see you from their stations. The tables up front are not usually used for those with reservations, they are for walk-ins or I suppose overflow from the main dining room if tables aren't turned on time.

In the past year nearly all my meals have been taken at the bar. I began to do this because I often dine alone in the city (the plight of the bachelor!) and I also just had it with trying to go through the Babbo reservations fiasco. If you show up on weeknights at the right times (i.e. right when they open or at around 6:45 - 7:00 when the bar tables are turning over for the first time), it's usually not hard to get seated within a few minutes at those front tables or to snag a spot at the bar. This way one can avoid the usual process of sitting on hold for hours, only to have someone tell you they'd be glad to seat you upstairs on a Tuesday night three weeks hence at 11pm.

August 13, 2003

What I was saying was that I thought certain cultural differences, certain expectations that are by and large different for most out of town visitors to NYC than they are for NYC high-end restaurant habitues might, in part, explain the rise in the number of complaints about Babbo.
Let me give one example completely removed from restaurants: In New York City supermarkets, we don't tend to talk to the checkout people, and they don't talk to us. It is quite common that the only word that is exchanged between the cashier and the purchaser is the price of the groceries. We like it this way. It's efficient and we get out of there as quickly as possible. On the other hand, in Texas is is quite common for customers to chat a bit with the cashier -- to chat with the cashier to the extent that it takes you just a little bit longer to go through the checkout line. In Texas, this is all part of being polite. Now, let's say that one of our Texans is in a New York grocery store. He expects that the cashier will chat with him. But she doesn't. In fact, she doesn't particularly respond to the Texan's overtures to engage in banter. Our Texan is angry now! That cashier was rude to him! He writes an angry letter to the manager of the grodery store, and posts on eGrocery about how much the customer service must be slipping at Fairway because he had a simply awful experience where the cashier was unbelievable surly to him.
Do you see what happened?

Yes, I totally get what you're saying. Especially since I came to NYC and the rest of the planet via the South. However, in my humble opinion, this analogy isn't particularly relevant to the problem Fireislanddish experienced at Babbo. Babbo is not a supermarket or BBQ joint. Babbo is high end restaurant in a very competitive city. I don't think it matters if it's located in NYC, London, Paris or Timbuktu - customers of all cultures are going to expect the staff to treat them in a polite and deferential manner. I don't expect the checkout person at the 68th St. corner deli to ask me how my day was, and I can spend 10 minutes(and usually do) talking about family, the weather, and fishing to the guy behind the counter at my favorite BBQ joint in Birmingham, AL.

I do however, expect the folks at Babbo to say "please", "thank you", and apologize out the wazzoo if they make a customer stand in their packed bar until past 9pm when the reservation was for 8:30. This is not what they do, in my experience (and that of the fellow egulleteer from Puerto Rico). Here is what happens. The jerky host glares at you because you made his life difficult by showing up 10 minutes early. Then he tells you to stand in the bar until a table is available. Then you proceed to get run over by busboys and waitstaff trying to service the tables up front by the window. Then you try to get a drink and the bartender ignores you for 5 minutes. Then you order something and the bartender lectures you about what you should really be drinking. Then you run back to the host and are scolded for bothering him when a table is not ready yet. And on and on and on. I know. I've been there many times.

Here is how it should work at Babbo, as it does at other restaurants in that league. You walk in and are seated within 10 minutes. If not, everyone apologizes profusely. If you wait another few minutes, a waitperson or bartender seeks you out and offers a complimentary glass of champagne or whatever. If you aren't seated within 30 minutes, the manager begs you to stay and brings you some amusees at the bar.

So long as Babbo is as "hot" as it is, I doubt the second scenario will ever happen. They don't care, and don't have to care. That doesn't make it right for people in a service business to behave the way they do.

So can I beat this dead horse a few more times? Babbo is not a supermarket, Babbo is not a supermarket.......

P.S. Sam, from what I gather you are an opera singer? Not sure if I've heard you (where do you perform?), but I suspect you've got a promising career as a lawyer if the singing gig ever gets old. :raz:

August 12, 2003

After pushing several buttons and waiting on the phone for a person, a man abruptly answers the phone (as if I had interrupted him during his morning constitution) and I kindly tell him I need to cancel. Then without any grace at all he continues to speak to me with a very annoyed tone and without even a "thank you for calling", hangs up on me.
My husband and I decide to make another go of it and call in for the lottery reservation and we win. We call-in dutifully (I now feel like I’m an employee on call) to confirm our reservation and this time I feel I interrupted a woman doing something because I am clearly annoying her by confirming. But she delights in telling me that I indeed don’t have a reservation. I tell her that I do and spoke to a person with an “English accent”, she in turn reprimanded me and said, “The person is not English but Australian.” .
I asked for champagne (my first mistake) and was given another lesson without warmth or a smile and meekly agreed to the “Sparkling wine”. We then asked to order some appetizers until my husband arrived (my second mistake). “We are unable to take any orders that are not complete.”
When we finished our meal the tables on either side of us had remained empty.

I happen to like midwesterners despite the fact I'm now a "212", and would like to bring things back to Fireislanddish's original post for a moment.

Above are some excerpts from the post, which plainly describe employees behaving in ways that are completely inappropriate in a service business, let alone an expensive and reknowned restaurant like Babbo. Even at Joe's Burger Shack you get a free coke if someone forgets to say "have a nice day" - yet the reservationists/hosts at Babbo think nothing of cutting people off on the phone, neglecting to say "thank you", and generally acting as if you are a serf attempting to gain admittance to the Lord's banquet table. Fireislanddish is not making this up, I have received the same treatment in the past from Babbo staff, as have friends of mine who live in the city.

The corrections about the sparkling wine vs. champagne, the absolute refusal to be flexible in any way on order timing, the pushiness to turn a table when there were open tables available, etc. are just other symptoms of a staff that is poorly managed. So the kitchen can't be too flexible on order timing due to the high volume on a busy night? Fine, bring the table some amusees or whatever to keep them happy until the other guest arrives. Someone orders Champagne and you only carry sparkling wine? Fine, the server can merely say "I'm sorry we don't have any French Champagne, but I'd be happy to suggest some Italian sparkling wines you might enjoy." This is not rocket science, just basic good service.

When someone of Fireislanddish's level of sophistication (I don't know the person, but clearly they love great food and seem to have traveled the world in search of it) leaves the restaurant feeling a sense of "angst" - someone is wrong, and it is not the customer! This is not about Midwesterners, New Yorkers, music preferences or whatever. It's about a restaurant that has gotten so much hype and demand that they have either forgotten the need for gracious service or are too damned overworked to provide it. I'm just amazed that the food hasn't suffered along with the service.

This kind of attitude isn't unique to Babbo, it can be found at many NYC restaurants. I just don't see why anyone should make excuses for it. Gramercy Tavern has got more business than they know what to do with, and they don't treat people this way. Daniel and Cafe Boulud have equally crowded schedules and have to turn tables to make a profit, yet they don't harrass you if you're 15 minutes late or overtly pressure you to turn a table.

Babbo has amazing food and in some cases excellent service, but I for one am not going to regularly patronize a restaurant that pulls the crap that Fireislanddish experienced. I just wish they'd fix the problems, because I do love Mario's food.

Finally, they haven't bothered to answer Fireislanddish's letter after 3 weeks. I think most restaurants deserve a second chance, since even the best ones can have an off night now and then. However, when someone takes time out of their busy schedule to write a letter to the owners, it should be answered with some sort of apology or explanation, and preferrably an invitation to return and give them another chance to get it right. If Babbo doesn't bother replying, how can I not believe that Mario & Co have either gotten too big for their britches or are stretched too thin to do their jobs properly? (and in case he thinks he or his staff are too busy to respond to their customer's letters, I've seen two thoughtful written responses from Daniel Boulud in similar circumstances and he manages 3 packed houses in NYC).

August 12, 2003

Right. I don't necessarily disagree. Except that I will say that the cultural norm in NYC, especially with respect to restaurants, is rather different from most of the rest of the country. As a result, there will always be some complaints generated by cultural dissonance.

In the case of Babbo, "cultural dissonance" may indeed be generating some unfavorable press. I would also say that they are generating some bad will among regular NYC customers due mostly to front of the house service issues. Great food yes, gracious service no (with the exception of the wine staff and a few waitstaff).

Perhaps I'm too far off topic here but can't resist... I'm originally from the South, but have lived all over the world during the past 20 years. I recently visited family in Atlanta, and we lamented the lack of great restaurants in such a large and wealthy city. There are now SEVEN high end steakhouses (Ruth's Chris, Chops, Bones, Capital Grille, NYC Prime, Prime Steaks, and Morton's) within a ONE MILE RADIUS in metro Atlanta, yet only 3 fine dining restaurants (Bacchanalia, Joel's, and Seeger's) in the entire city that we thought could hold a candle to anything upscale in NYC, San Francisco, Chicago or L.A. I'm not sure why this is, but I suspect your "cultural dissonance" theory is part of it. Every time someone opens up a restaurant that doesn't meet local expectations for portions, presentation, whatever - it gets panned by lots of people.

The following quote is a good example from a reviewer on a local food site, talking about one of the few truly excellent restaurants in Atlanta:

"I couldn't pronounce half of the items on the one page menu. I don't know where this chef grew up, but apparently it wasn't the U.S. The food was terrible and looked and tasted like it belonged in an art gallery rather than on a table. The portions were tiny and the prices a whole other subject. They were outrageous! The beautiful and romantic atmosphere would be my only reason for going back!"

I'd say there's some serious "cultural dissonance" going on there, as the place in question is arguable the best in the Southeast (I ate there last week and it was fantastic). I suppose the motto for French chefs hoping to relocate from NYC to Atlanta should be "Let them eat steak!"

August 12, 2003

In a situation where the restaurant has XYZ cultural expectations and customers come in operating under ABC, there are bound to be conflicts. The only kind of restaurant for which this is typically not the case -- and should not be the case -- are restaurants which specifically cater to tourists. Babbo, in my opinion, does not consider itself to be a tourist restaurant, nor does it seek to be one. All of Mario's places are decidedly New York City restaurants.
I wonder how many of the people who complain about Babbo are from the City as opposed to out of towners. I am willing to bet that most of them are from out of town, and that many of their complaints are for perceived slights that most City dwellers would hardly notice.
I should modify my earlier remark to say that there are modes of behavior, etc. that are appropriate to other parts of the country that are not appropriate to an NYC restaurant
(and vice-versa, of course).

I agree there are bound to be some conflicts, but these conflicts should be minimized and handled graciously by the restaurant staff. It is THEIR job to please the customer, NOT the other way around! If a guest is blatantly out of line (i.e. getting wasted on Jaegermeister shots at the Babbo Bar) I wouldn't blame the staff for getting miffed and being less than hospitable. But if a guy shows up from Des Moines in funny clothes and needs help figuring out the menu, he is still deserves the best service possible for several reasons. From an ethical perspective, he is paying the same fee for the experience as everyone else in the place, so as long as he is polite than why shouldn't he receive the same quality product and service? From a business perspective, this guy may just be a lot more successfull or connected than he appears, and pissing him off may have repercussions. If the waitstaff and hosts are true professionals who take pride in their job, they will do their best to make this guy feel like a king. If on the other hand they are self-absorbed, arrogant, 2nd-tier NYC restaurant staff, then they will likely behave as the obnoxious host at Babbo has done to me and to many others by making them feel unwelcome, hurried or hassled. Babbo is not a private social club who as it liberty to choose its membership.

I am certain that the complaints are not just from out of towners. I'm a New Yorker who has lived and dined all over the world and could blend in with the crowd at Babbo, Jean Georges, Ducasse, whatever - yet I have experienced service problems at Babbo. So many problems in fact, that I no longer dine there regularly despite how much I love their food. I have other friends from New York city who would agree.

SlKinsey - I hear what you are saying about all this and am somewhat sympathetic as the WHY you think this social disconnect might be happening at Babbo. I just can't agree that this should affect the service if the place were run properly. I think the problems at Babbo are relatively straightforward and could be easily fixed. First of all, they need to fire the front of the house and reservations staff, and replace them with people who can be friendly even under the hectic conditions typical of a place like Babbo. There is absolutely no excuse for the way Fireislanddish was treated over the phone. Secondly, Mario or whoever needs to lighten up on the "rules" he has put in place for diners, and finally they need to focus a bit more on providing a pleasant dining experience rather than absolutely max table turns every night. In the dozens of times I've dined there, I have come to believe that the management philosophy is more about turning tables than making the customers happy. This is not the case (at least not so overtly) at many of their high end competitors. One solution might be to raise prices enough to make up for a bit less volume.

August 12, 2003

If it was my reputation as a chef and owner I would want to know the postive and negative experiences. Many people have since told me he probably is too egocentric to care what I thought. And I have heard back from several friends that they have the same experience.
Cheers,
FireIslanddish

Damn straight! I grew up in the high end hotel/restaurant business, and if there is ONE most important lesson I learned it is "the customer is always right" (no matter how wrong you may think they are). Word of mouth among the truly high end clientelle is everything in this business. He may be able to fool the "Molto Mario" crowd on vacation from Main Street USA (and I'd emphasize MAYBE), and the "see and be seen" types in NYC that will put up with anything to be in the hot new spot, but that's about it. People like Fireislanddish who have the resources and choices to dine wherever they choose are not going to put up with rude service, pushy table-turning, impossible reservations policies, etc. Why do so when you can take a 5 minute cab ride to Cafe Boulud, Gramercy Tavern, The Tasting Room, Blue Ribbon (to name a few) where the staff will treat you like the special person that you are. These people know that a happy customer not only comes back, but tells all their other big-spending friends to visit. The fact you showed up at such a high end restaurant in the first place means that you are in that 1% of the U.S. population that is their target market. They need your business and that of your friends and coworkers. Good press with you is better than any advertisement they could pay for. It for this reason that my father got to the office an hour early every day to read EVERY SINGLE letter from customers, and respond to each one personally - usually with some sort of generous invitation for free dinner or a hotel room if the person was disatisfied for any reason during their last visit. This simple philosophy brought him great success in business over many years in many luxury hotels/restaurants, not to mention a lot of happy customers.

Having said all that, Mario is in an extremely unusual position of having one of the hottest/trendiest restaurants in wealthiest large city in the world. He can probably afford to piss off customers for some period of time, maybe indefinitely, because he has such a large potential customer base. He also has the unusual benefit of his TV promotion to generate new business. However, if he is indeed blind to customer comments and criticism, this will come back to haunt him at some point in his career. If he or a manager doesn't respond to Fireislanddish's letter, I think we have found "Mario the Great's" Achilles' heel. David Bouley had the NYC culinary world at his feet and the chance to make a small fortune. His lack of business acumen and customer service have all but wiped him out over the long term. If Mario is to retain a place among the truly elite restaurants, at some point he will have to make sure his staff treats the customers more graciously. Otherwise he may find himself among the Bobby Flay's of this world, a celebrity chef serving dumbed-down cuisine to people who wouldn't know a veal cheek or vin santo from a chicken mcnugget and a diet coke. And commercial success aside, caring about all your customers is just the RIGHT thing to do! Why be in the hospitality business if you don't like being hospitable? If you want to screw people to make money, go work on Wall Street!

Fireislanddish - Mario needs your business and needs to work hard to keep it. He just doesn't know it yet. Keep us posted on whether or not you receive a reply from Babbo & Co. I'll be curious to see how this ends.

August 12, 2003

Obviously not everyone is going to be happy 100% of the time. But all the people I know from Metropolitan New York who have gone there have had a thoroughly positive experience overall.

Well I am a Manhattanite who eats out 7 nights a week, knows how to behave, and can say that I have to agree with most of what Fireislandish has said about Babbo. My only disagreement would be holding up the order for 45 minutes at a place like Babbo. I might do this at a truly high-end place like Daniel if absolutely necessary, but let's face it, Babbo is a somewhat reasonably priced (by NYC standards given the quality of food and low markup of the wine list) "hot" restaurant that probably relies on turning over tables to be profitable. That being said, this DOES NOT excuse the following:

A generally rude and obnoxious host (OK I really think he is a total tool)

Lack of a friendly attitude when calling for reservations, after having to wait hours on hold to get through

Noticeable harassment by the host/hostess if you dare to show up 5 minutes early or late for a reservation

A bit too much of a "we know how it's done and let me tell you" attitude by some of the waitstaff and bartenders

I have dined at Babbo many times in the past 3 years, and love the food and wine list. I think it's by far the best bang for the buck I've had in NYC for great creative cuisine. I actually dined there often enough that the jerky host guy recognized met and did start to treat me a little better (i.e. he didn't glare at me with quite the same disdain). However, I finally grew tired of the hassles and took Babbo off of my short list of dinner spots. Life in NYC is stressful enough without having to encounter more pressure and stress when dining at a fine restaurant. I will probably go back and dine solo at the Babbo bar at off-hours, so I can get my pasta fix every once in a while, but that's about it. I have quit going to Bouley for many of the same reasons (although I'll admit that Bouley's service is easily ten times worse than Babbo).

On a brighter note, I have had excellent and friendly service from some of the waitstaff at Babbo, and think their wine service is some of the best in the city - friendly, knowledgeable, willing to take time to help you explore new wines, and the lowest markup from retail in the city. Also, I have never had a remotely disappointing meal there in terms of food quality, which is more than I can say for many of their competitors.

I think it's unfortunate that a place with so much to offer can't figure out how to take the pushy edge off and provide that gracious atmosphere Mario claims to be shooting for. Then again, they're booked solid every night so maybe Mario couldn't care less.

August 10, 2003

I'm with tommyf on this one. Yes Bond St. is a trendy place to "see and be seen", and yes it does have surprisingly great food despite all that. It don't think it provides the same quality as the truly top-tier sushi restaurants in NYC (i.e. Sushi Yasuda), but that's not the point. This place is more about creative and fun nouvelle cuisine sushi (i.e. Nobu).

My favorites include the sesame-crusted shrimp roll and the smoked salmon sushi. The house "saketini" drink is also excellent - and available either as a dry or sweet concoction.

I also think it is a great place to take a date. The food and drinks are excellent, the atmosphere is very lively and hip, and the whole experience is more fun than most "upscale" restaurants in NYC.

I usually choose Bond St. when I have friends from out of town who want to have a "New York City experience". There is usually some amusing people-watching potential in the downstairs bar, with enough black clad metrosexuals and eurotrash to satisfy even a jaded visitor from L.A. Last time I took my brother to dinner at Bond St., Rod Stewart was holding court in the booth next to us with what appeared to be a gaggle of supermodels :cool: . I was my brother's hero in the restaurant selection wars for the next year! Of course I then had to take my other brother when he visited NYC, and what did we get? Marv Alpert sitting at the next table with an unnatractive date (you can't win every time!).

On the downside, Bond St. is quite expensive, can be loud, and the service is often incredibly slow when they are packed (which is just about every night). And heed this warning from someone who knows - don't slurp down too many saketinis during the long wait for your food to arrive. You will wake up the next day feeling like you've been beat up by a mugger, and your wallet will indeed be empty...... :shock:

August 8, 2003

That kung pao has a MASSIVE amount of sichuan peppercorn in it. I have no idea how the hell they manage to get ample supplies of it, considering its been banned for over 2 years?

What's been banned for 2 years? Sichuan peppercorns? Freshly killed chicken "not long time frozen"? Heartburn-inducing food? (see the "Smoking Ban In NYC" thread for more on this topic)

Mr. Perlow, I have to admit you have me worried that my favorite NYC cheap food fix is about to be outlawed. I am also wondering if they're giving you more peppercorns than I get. I've had plenty of hot dishes at GSI but "MASSIVE" amounts of peppercorns have never reached my table. Maybe I need to tip more next time... :blink:

July 28, 2003

They list 17 places that remain were one can still smoke a cigar in NYC. They are: Aubette, Campbell Apartment, Carnegie Club, Circa Tabac, Club Macanudo, Florio's Grill, Grand Havana Room, Hudson Bar and Books, Lexington Bar and Books, Lobby Court Lounge, Merchants NY, Mustang Grill, North West, Scores (Cigars and a whole lot more), Swan's Bar & Grill, and Uncle Jack's.

David,

Thanks for the info. If anyone cares to continue this debate over a cigar, I'm headed over to Lexington Bar and Books.......

Anyone know how long these "cigar bar" bars will be allowed to operate as such under the new law?

July 28, 2003

I think even gentle well thought out laws can seem to run roughshod over preceived rights, or real interests and surely we have a right to our interests. The smoking ban makes more of NY emminently enjoyable to be and it's hard to disguise my pleasure in that. That doesn't mean I am blind to the fact that other people's joy is diminished. The shoe is on the other food in that regard. There is nothing inherently positive or progressive about that sort of trade off. They sympathy I have for those who've lost a pleasure is perhaps due to the revolutionary, rather than evolutionary nature of the change. One day you could do something you enjoyed and today you can't.
Universal sufferage is similarly revolutionary in a certain way, but while a whole new group gets to vote, no one is taking away the votes of the existing voters. I suppose my contribution here is only to agree that perhaps the change might have been made in a less drastic manner and still protected the rights of employees. I have a general problem with "separate and equal," as the separate parts are never equal, but there are exceptions that could have been allowed to continue for some period. Of course the more complex the law becomes, the harder it may be to enforce it. In the end, the success of this law will depend on its social acceptance, just like prohibition.

Bux,

We may disagree, but I respect those who can do so using reason and respect for the other side. You wanna run for mayor next time around?

July 28, 2003

I suspect there is a moral or other agenda (smoking is a nasty habit, those people should know better, I'm helping them save themselves, etc.) motivating these lawmakers' actions.

And that's the accusation that it always comes down to, isn't it. People who don't want to be subjected to your smoke are prudes, moralists, evangelists - some sort of judgmental zealot crusader - preachy busybody do-gooders run amok.
Would that my motives were so altruistic, so moral, so selfless as that.
In truth, I don't give a rat's ass if you or anyone else smoke yourself to death. It is your right. It is your decision.
But I shouldn't have to have to suck the damn stuff into myself while you're at it.
Like if you choose to drive your Cadillac convertible off the south rim of the Grand Canyon. I'll lament your choice and your demise only briefly - if I notice it at all. I won't be picketing at the canyon rim in an effort to disuade you, or to save your wretched soul. You're in charge of both of those things.
But I don't think I should be forced to sit in the car with you.

Jaymes,

If you read my posts carefully, you would find that I am not for forcing smoking on others, and have NO problem with a smoking ban in most places (restaurants, bars, or areas where employees must be subjected to second hand smoke). I am just wondering why my right to smoke in a private situation, where no one is compelled to join me, other than fellow smokers.

I am certainly not calling you or anyone on this forum a prude, moralist, evangelist, etc. I was looking for thoughtful responses for WHY my personal freedom has been taken away in situations where it is not bothering anyone. The rabidly agressive response by many non-smokers, as well as the overreaching nature of the NY state law (as opposed to the city law), still leads me to believe that there is pent-up agression being directed at smokers. I suppose I can't blame those who have suffered against their will through years in smoky bars for enjoying their chance to let smokers have it. I just wish the law had been written with a bit more tolerance in situations where it would likely have been appropriate.

SlKinsey brings up an interesting point about the need for a simple law with no exceptions in his stoplight analogy. I won't argue with his logic, as it is sound.

I guess I'll just have to go outside NYC to enjoy that occasional cigar or late-night smoke with friends. The majority has won. That doesn't mean I agree with it. I will never be a fan of state intervention in such matters unless ABSOLUTELY necessary. I am basically a libertarian and a free-market capitalist (with a few exceptions), which means I probably have no business opening my mouth in NYC anyway!

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