thirtyoneknots

Is it possible that the name Hercules was used for two distinct products? If so it would seem one was vastly more popular/common than the other, or had already become defunct by the time of the Savoy's publication since it never specifies any qualifiers.

I was referring to the fact that old Lillet has two formulas (three once they came up with Lillet Dry). As eje notes above, Continental Lillet had two varieties: "Kina Lillet" and "Sauternes Lillet." I was merely suggesting that something like Noilly Ambre (which appears to use a botrytised wine stock, from the taste) might be similar to this old "Sauternes Lillet." ← That is very interesting, I'd never heard of such. Was Sauternes Lillet meant to be a digestif/dessert or was it dry enough to be an aperitif? Some Sauternes are not that sweet, not too much more than current Lillet, so I guess it's concievable. Edit: Spelling

42 degrees proof, or 21% alcohol by weight does not seem unreasonable for a fortified wine. Port regularly achieves 20% abv. When you get into lower proofs like that with ingredients intended for mixing, a somewhat peculiar grey area appears. Cynar, for example, is only 15-16% abv, barely above some table wines. I have never heard anything to indicate that it is in fact wine-based, and yet it sometimes displays attributes similar to high-end vermouths like Punt e Mes, mixing-wise. So was Hercules a high-proof fortified wine or a low proof aperitif spirit? Maybe we'll never know. I still think that red quinquinas are a good bet for most appropriate substitute though, given what we know. -Andy

My impression is that Lillet is based on a dry white Brodeaux table wine (ie a Semillon/Sauvignon Blanc blend). Aside from Sauternes being generally cost prohibitive for something like this, Lillet lacks the distinctive botrytis flavor of Sauternes and other wines made in that fashion.

Moderator Note, this discussion split from the Stomping Through the Savoy topic. Had sort of an "ah-hah!" moment today while rereading the earlier part of this thread looking for something unrelated. The Ante Cocktail as it appears in the Savoy: The Ante Cocktail as it appears on Cocktail Chronicles and Drinkboy.com: So then it appears that somewhere along the way Dubonnet Rouge became the common sub for Hercules as that product slid into obscurity (presumably originally done by people who had tasted both of them). Similar, I suppose, to how different brands of bitters were subbed in as the available number of them dwindled. Maybe not case closed, but I think this, along with the ad from CocktailDB, is enough good circumstantial evidence to recommend Dubonnet or other red quinquina as a Hercules substitute. -Andy

I do not recommend DeKuyper Apricot Brandy. Hold out for something better, you'll be glad you did (particularly if you ever compare the two side-by-side).

The Cocchi Aperitivo Americano comes close to the "bitter" (kina) Lillet (I've done a side-by-side with a very well-preserved bottle), and I'd suggest that Noilly Prat Ambre is probably close to the Sauternes Lillet, although who knows? Vermouth herbals are tricky to judge. Anyone in the perfume industry who could lend a hand? ← Old Lillet is based on Sauternes?!

Any place that carries Peychaud's, should, at least in theory, be able to carry Regans'

Not trying to get too far off-topic here but I think the most disappointing thing about the drinking culture in America (or what passes for it) is the near-complete lack of context. It's not at all uncommon for people to start off their meal with a "Chocolate Martini" and have a glass of Merlot with their sashimi. And this is at nice places even! To me the most fun part of a meal is the context of the drinks. Cocktails before, lighter wines to start, heavier wines with the main course, sweet wines and spirits afterwards (and of course you've been drinking highballs since lunch ). Of course that much booze with a meal is an occasional extravagance for most people, myself included, but I don't think it's too much to expect some effort in that area. Far too many people come in to where I work and drink 2-3 cosmopolitans with their meal. Bacchus wept. -Andy Edit for gratuitous adjective usage.

I've never seen a grocer in Texas who carries ROB but it might be worth a shot. If you're interested in pursuing the liquor store thing, might help to tell them that Republic Beverage is the distributor for Buffalo Trace products (where ROB is made). Of course if you get 3-4 or more bottles the shipping works out to be pretty reasonable so you could just order it. -Andy

Routin 1883 is a fantastic brand. Orgeat, Passion Fruit, Raspberry, Strawberry, Pineapple and Mint I can all personally vouch for (though the Mint works best in something like a Parroquet, not as a sub for fresh mint). The Vanilla syrup, well, I think that's one area where your homebrew will probably be superior (there's just something peculiar about it). -Andy

The worst part is that this looks so much like something you'd see on the drink list at so many otherwise respectable establishments nowadays (of course sub liqueur du jour for the curacao and flavor x of 'superpremium' vodka for the gin). So much for Progress. Edit to add: No, the worst part is that it would probably be a top seller at said establishment.

I thought Creme de Noyeaux was a true almond liqueur? Though of course most pits and such come out tasting more or less the same in alcohol.

Host note, moved from Stomping Through the Savoy, A to Zed I've never had Creme de Noyeaux, much less a good one, but in my experience nut liqueurs have sufficiently similar flavor profiles as to allow substitution of one for another in pretty much any recipe. It won't be exactly the same, of course, but the results will still be in the same vein as intended. In other words, yeah, I doubt it's worth it for you to buy a liter of Creme de Noyeaux for 3 recipes unless you just really want to know what it's like. -Andy

I had tried the Culross before with Apry and upped the lemon to equal parts since just looking at the recipe gave me a toothache. The drink was ok but still a bit sweet for me and the Apry was more or less what you tasted (though it did have an interesting interplay with the floral notes in the rum). I think I'll have ot go back and try it again with the Barack Palinka. Sadly no Americano available around here though. -Andy

Right, it falls in the same legal category as something like Vanilla Extract, which is typically around 35% abv.

While they may be exempt, I would not discount all dives. The right night, the right bartender, you never know. ← Not saying it can't happen, I'm just saying I'm not expecting it the way I would elsewhere.

This should be true, but to paraphrase Dave Wondrich, Martinis are way too close to religion for most people who drink them. Every Martini drinker has his own One True Way that the drink should be made (I'm no exception; it's part of the fun), and again the vermouth question. I'd be much more willing to take chances on a dusty bottle of sweet vermouth, but dry? no thanks. Couple that with the fact that at least around here, most places stock Martini & Rossi dry, a marginal brand (imo) under the best circumstances, and you have a recipe for mediocrity. Now a sweet martini, that might be an interesting test, since it's something most bartenders have probbaly never even had requested, and yet they should be able to make it with a minimum of explanation. Sounds like fun, actually (plus, they're pretty good).

I don't know, Andy. Plenty of bars have a few token bottles of vermouth gathering dust on the back bar. And if the bottle's been sitting out there post-opening (or, worse yet, with a speed pourer in the neck) for six months, there's pretty much no way you're getting a good Manhattan. ← No doubt. "Should" get a decent Manhattan and "will" get a decent Manhattan are not the same. In my opinion this is still something of a test for the bartender (though I guess a little more advanced). Perfectly acceptable vermouth can be had for $7/bottle. Why isn't the bartender notifying the manager that they need a new bottle if the old one is bad? You can make something like 30+ Manhattans with a $7 bottle of vermouth, and each one of those drinks will cost $7+ in a restaraunt or bar with pretenses towards cocktails. There's really no excuse. -Andy PS: I've seen vermouth bottles in bars that would otherwise qualify as dives. As dives, they are, in my mind, still exempt from having to make a Manhattan.

When I saw the name of this thread, I immidiately thought "Manhattan." I disagree that one shouldn't expect good Manhattans at just about any place that stocks the ingredients (great Manhattans are a different matter). Never mind trying to get most bartenders to name 3 drinks that use bitters, see if they can name two drinks that use sweet vermouth! Really, most places that stock the stuff at all are essentially saying "You can get a Manhattan here," hence I think it's reasonable to expect the result of that request to be drinkable. I also think that it's a good test of a bartender's craft, for the reasons listed in the first post. Robert Hess uses the Old Fashioned for his litmus test, but I think a properly made Old Fashioned is really more of a test of 'cocktailian' ability/knowledge, whereas a drinkable Manhattan is, I think, a good test of basic compentency in mixing. A well made old-school drink is also a good indicator that the person behind the bar actually enjoys the taste of good liquor, something not to be taken for granted in most bars. Another advantage the Manhattan has over the OF as an indicator of competency is that there are more steps to making it, and hence more signs to look far re: attention to craft (eg stirring vs shaking, chilling glass, etc). As someone who tends bar in a place known for wine more than cocktails (not that our cocktails are bad, the wine is just that good) it's always sort of a treat to have someone order something like a Manhattan, which I always take as a challenge as if they were trying to size up my abilities (also a great opportunity to introduce people to the beauty of Rye). But the sad truth is that "superpremium" vodka and soda/cranberry/orange, brand X on the rocks, and drinks sweet enough to give you diabetes by the bottom of the glass are good enough for 90% or more of the drinking public. And of course, if you truly are in a dive (or sports bar or whatever), none of the above applies and the place should be enjoyed for what it is. Bartending isn't all about the drinks. Some of the best bartenders I've ever met couldn't mix a Manhattan worthy of a clean glass if their lives depended on it. But they can put you right at ease, show you a great time, and take your mind off your troubles, if only for a little while. Sometimes you want to watch Schindler's List and sometimes you want to watch the Simpsons. -Andy

Not to throw fuel on the fire, but the small preportion of citrus makes me wonder if that recipe would even work with a dry eau de vie, like Barak Palinka. Would be a much different drink, but maybe not in a bad way (may need a dash of simple syrup or grenadine though). -Andy

I'm not sure I understand what the deal is. I was under the distinct impression that pre-Castro Bacardi was aged and filtered. Being a different brand of the same spirit made in the same style can still allow for considerable variation in flavor profile. To me this is sort of like if someone only had Wild Turkey available and was told it was not really very similar to Jim Beam (or whatever). It's not, strictly speaking, but it's also not an inappropriate substitute (certainly less so than the subbing of Sazerac Rye in for Canadian Club). For my money, Flor de Cana is the best white rum I've ever had. That said, I've heard so many excellent things about Brugal and I'd really like to try it but for some reason it seems to be difficult to come by in sizes less than 1.75 liters and I don't really want to buy a half-gallon of rum to try (also, big bottles = cumbersome). -Andy

Ooh that sounds quite nice actually.

So I was going to do a different drink but sort of ran out of time but I may post it later this week as a bonus (been sort of in a cocktail rut lately ). Without further ado: As others known to this community have noted, Drambuie is a really terriffic liqueur. Robust and manly but approachable and gentlemanly at the same time. Unfortunately, Drambuie's deliciousness is matched only by it's difficulty in incorporating into mixed drinks, and the few that do use it employ it either as an accent on an already scotchy Scotch base (Rusty Nail, Robert Burns), or, even more excitingly, in a dynamic state of tension with other, quite different, ingredients (Jabberwocky, Gansevoort Fizz). But a drink based on Drambuie? That would be unusual indeed. Enter Esquire Drinks and the Mackinnon Fizz. Tucked amongst the tall drinks about 2/3 of the way through the book the Mackinnon is a recipe that one might easily pass over, and so I did until last spring when I decided to mix one up with the fresh bottle of Drambuie I had just bought. What I discovered was my celebratory drink of the summer (and maybe the best use of Drambuie I know of). 2 oz Drambuie 1/2 oz White Rum (Flor de Cana) 1/2 oz lemon 1/2 oz lime Shake with ice and strain into tall glass with a few large ice cubes. Top with soda. Esquire Drinks suggests that the drink may have been a marketing ploy by Drambuie, as it is named after the family who owns it. If this is true, it's probably one of the last times that a liquor company came up with a drink worth making. Its slightly sweet, sure -- it IS over half liqueur, after all -- but not overpoweringly so, probably about as sweet as a Coke. The assertive nature of the liqueur is only slightly checked by the citrus and fizz, otherwise it's character shines bright. The white rum's role, as far as I can tell, is to sort of tame the sweetness slightly without adding additional acids, by stretching the base a bit; a role that today would likely be filled by vodka, but the floral characteristics of the rum contribute nicely to the drink's lengthy and complex finish. I think the drink is swell as printed here, though it's about as sweet of a tall drink as I would want and that, coupled with the high price of Drambuie*, make this a once-in-a-while treat for me. Here in Texas we've got at least another 6-8 weeks of tall drink weather, but if the weather is not so kind where you live, definitely try this one before the cool months arrive -- you'll still be thinking about when summer rolls back around. -Andy *Supposedly there's another Scotch & Honey liqueur out there called Glayva which I've seen for about half the price of Drambuie. Anybody had this or know if it's any good?

For my money, that's one of the most bizarre recipes you've come across so far. Mundane enough ingredients, but the preportions! Weird.