LPShanet

Well, great... that saves me a trip to D.C. More good eating in NYC. I heard that White is now over at L'Impero? ← Yes, White is now the Exec Chef at both L'Impero and Alto...basically took over for Conant at both. The menus seem slightly more traditional than when Conant was there, and they're trying to define them by having Alto be more "Northern" and L'Impero be more "Southern".

In this case, it was definitely the loss of the chef, as Raji and I have mentioned. At a sushi bar, the itamae makes all the difference. It is his fastidiousness that makes the place special, from fish selection to presentation. The departure of Masato Shimizu, and his replacement with someone not of his caliber is all the reason needed for it to decline.

I know this is off-topic now, but to answer your question, Raji, it wasn't that they were booked up. I walked by in person, and there were empty tables. There were still diners inside finishing, but they were already cleaning up the sushi bar. I'm pretty sure it said that they closed at 10 right on the hours posted on the door, and it was locked.

I am making plans for dinner with friends in Brooklyn, and wanted eGulleter opinions on which is a better place to go: Saul or The Grocery. I'd also be open to other opinions of great options in Brooklyn, but those seemed most likely.

Yah, as I ended up emailing UE, as a sushi purist in his position(securing a last-minute sushi-bar counter seating), I might have taken the occasion to check out Shimizu, still very popular with Japanese tourists, or perhaps Esashi in the east village. I was living in Japan during Jewel Bako's heyday and surmised to skip it since Masato Shimizu's departure/their renovation... every indication is that that was the correct call, and I'd expect a French tire company to hear about it 5 years late... ← Speaking of Shimizu the restaurant, I tried to pop in last night, and I thought it was worth mentioning in this chain that they close by 10pm, even on Friday nights, so if you go, make sure not to make it too late. I was shut out.

Great info, John. Thanks. On a related note, are the Sabrett hot dogs that have now made their way into grocery store cases the same recipe as the ones you refer to above, or is that another version of the Sabrett? It is the same recipe, but in a skinless version. The natural casing dogs seen in the stores are usually 8 to a lb. For me, that is a good size, except that I find the 10's a little sturdier. The 8's are sometimes mushy. Whatever the size, Sabrett has one recipe for all beef dogs and one recipe for beef/pork dogs. The beef/pork mix is used at The Hot Grill, Windmill, and Callahan's in New Jersey. ← ← Thanks again! I think we need to officially recognize John's hot dog knowledge with some sort of title.

Tried calling to go today and no one answered the phone. In fact, it wasn't connected. However, I hear they've changed the number.

Great info, John. Thanks. On a related note, are the Sabrett hot dogs that have now made their way into grocery store cases the same recipe as the ones you refer to above, or is that another version of the Sabrett?

When you refer to a "well done steak", I trust you are referencing a steak that is skillfully done, rather than one that has been overcooked to that temperature referred to as "well-done". After all, no real steak lover would do the latter to a perfectly good steak, and if he did, he would be on pretty weak ground regarding how meat should be treated.

Thanks, LPSHanet. Just one clarification - Masato Shimizu - not to be confused with another Shimizu who is the chef at "Shimizu" sushi, right? ← Different guy, although Shimizu the restaurant is worth a visit, too.

I second both of those. Have had them each twice and they're among the best things on the menu.

If the octopus dish at last week's Rising Stars Review is any indication you can add 15 East to that list. It was spectacular and one of the highlights of the evening. ← Masato serves that dish at the sushi bar at 15 East, and it's great.

Nice...I miss the Checker cabs, too! (Although not the bumpy ride.) We used to frequent the Ray's at 76th and 3rd, and remember it being quite good, as you do. I seem to remember the sauce being one of the major attractions of that slice, which was critical when you're dealing with a cheese bomb.

I'll certainly agree that, to me, pizza has always been about the crust. But, leaving out the old school coal-fired places, I'm not sure NYC deck-oven by-the-slice pizza has been defined by a superior crust in a long, long time. There's only so good the crust can be with this style of pizza. Sure, there are some places like Di Fara and Sal & Carmine's that manage to turn out a better crust than usual (ableit radically different in the case of these two examples), but I wouldn't say even the best places have been head-and-shoulders above the norm. ← I'd say that's both true and false. While the best crusts come from a really hot coal (or wood, or similar) oven, you can achieve a pretty good result in a standard Bari deck oven by using the principle discovered by the best french fry makers: cook it twice. Some places still can get a pretty good crunch/chew going. A crust with good flavor that has the potential to get crisp will make a very nice slice, as I've had on occasion even recently at Joe's and occasionally Ben's on Spring. However, very often they mess this up, either with the cooking/reheating process or by making the crust sloppily (either by ingredient proportions or by not controlling the thickness, among other factors). The result: that spongy horror.

I'll give myself credit for having already raised this exact issue earlier in the thread (I didn't use the word "spongy" but I was complaining about the crusts - which generally suck). And Nathan pointed out that the "Joe's" I referenced is actually at Bleecker and 6th. The weird thing is that although the place I mentioned (which I have not visited in the past four or five years) was just "Joe's" - not "Famous Joe's". I'm wondering if they really moved up form the corner or of the other place closed and the new guy can't use the name but settled on"Famous Joe's" so that people would assume a connection. I'll be in the city for the last weekend of September and staying in that neighborhood - I'll walk over and check it out. ← for whatever reason, they moved...I'm pretty sure its the same people and everything's identical inside. meanwhile, a generic pizza place took over the old location...no doubt attempting to capitalize on confused tourists. ← To help settle this, it is, in fact, the same Joe's. And it wasn't really a move, in that they were in the current space quite a while at the same time as being in the corner space. In other words, they actually had two Joe's a few dozen feet apart for quite a while. Then the landlord of the corner space raised the rent so exorbitantly that they felt they had to move out, as they wouldn't make enough money for it to make business sense. They kept the mid-block space, which then became their main (and only) focus. Then, as Nathan mentions, some chain place took over the corner space, which further supports some of the comments upstream.

I agree 100%. While it is somewhat inconsistent, the inconstency is between a transcendant piece of steak, and a steak that is merely as good as the rest of the NY steakhouses (which then is a dissapointment, as I expect Luger's steak to be head and shoulders above the rest). To me, that was the point of the review and the downgrade. Is that, when not at it's best, there is little gap between Luger's and the "others"; and in fact when the steak isn't transcendant on a given night, the slightly better beef may be offset by better sides, ambiance, service, wine list, etc., depending on your priorities. Personally, I have no problems with the service at Lugers, which may be gruff, but is effiecient and if you go in knowing what you want (which we always do) you can have fun with it. In fact on 2 recent occasions we've had very good service (possibly as Oxymoron at PL), once when taking my parents for their first visit in 20 years, not rushing us at all, and pacing things more slowly than they normally do. And just last week, when the steak for 3 (medium rare), came out blood red (rarer then the rare steak for 3), taking it back w/o being asked (he pulled it out to serve, and said it wasn't right), and came back 3 minutes later with it perfect. We also mentioned at the beginning of the meal that we wanted Streudel and asked him to hold a piece for us (they ran out on our previous visit). Later in the meal, he said they were indeed running low, so he brough us out a foot long piece (covered in parchment), and sat it in the window for us to save for dessert. No doubt Luger's has it flaws, and is not perfect, and that there are other steakhouses that have very good beef and better other features (that may or may not be important to various diners). But even on an off night, the Porterhouse is still outstanding, and when it's an "on" night, there is nothing better... ← I highly agree with FG and Jon (and not just because he's my friend!). More bluntly stated, if you want hotel style service and atmosphere, go to Atlanta, Dallas or some other such mall-centric city and go to Ruth's Chris, or one of the many branches spun off some formerly good NY steakhouse, or some other nonsense and be happy. If you're hoping for a thumping soundtrack (and to impress some gold-digging cougars with your finance job and wilingness to overpay for perceived luxury) to go with your steak, then try one of the places that offer 17 kinds of fake and supposedly real Kobe beef, none of which have been prepared correctly, preferably in the Meatpacking District or Midtown. However, if you want a shot at what on a good day is still the best dry aged porterhouse available in the US, go to PL, and hope they're having one of their great days. The only other place with comparable meat and aging processes is probably Bern's in Tampa, and that, after all, is located in Tampa. Another thing that seems not to have been addressed here is the idea that the service at PL, like that in many old school NY icon establishments, is to be viewed with a sense of humor. While there are cases of crappy service, it's amazing to me how many people don't have the advance information that at many such places (PL, Manny's Roumanian, Katz's, Carnegie Deli, the list goes on), the seeming gruffness of the service is part of the "schtick". While servers may take too much advantage of this when they're in poor moods, they are encouraged to behave this way as part of the atmosphere. If, instead of being reduced to making catty remarks after you leave, you decide to give it back a little, you'll often find that they're kind of kidding about the whole thing, and treat you very well if you play along. And even if they don't, your steak will still taste the same. When in NY, do as the NYers and give him shit back if he's rude to you. You'll be glad you did.

As someone mentioned upthread, they recently approved the importation of fresh ones, as long as they've been through a special irradiation process. However, I've yet to see the "fruit" of this new windfall (sorry for the cheesy pun). I suspect once they're in season you'll start to see them appear at stands, but I've been told that the price of the process and importation has limited the distribution. Kind of like what we saw with Indian mangos earlier this year, only it's more of a niche fruit, so less demand.

Not sure if you saw a previous response of mine to your quandary on another string, but I suspect the best course for your next such outing would be to go to 15 East. Masato Shimizu, the chef who made Jewel Bako's initial reputation a while back (which it still rides on, despite the now lower level) is now there and doing a very nice job in quite a nice space. While he does occasionally "dress up" some of the pieces he serves, it is always in a more subtle and complementary way than what you described in the above meal, and he really lets the ingredients shine, as a good sushi chef should.

Question for those NY hot dog experts on the site: At the Papaya King flagship (86th and 3rd), their signs have always (at least since the 70's, which is as far back as I can remember) implied that they get their hot dogs made specially for them (as opposed to Gray's Papaya, which advertises the use of Sabrett hot dogs). Is this actually the case? Or do they use Sabrett, too? Maybe it's my imagination, but I've always detected a slight difference between the two, although it could just be chalked up to grill temperature or other factors.

All this talk has been surprisingly free of condemnation for the state of today's crusts. Certainly cheese quality is important, and so it sauce, but the defining characteristic of NY pizza is its crust. Death to the spongy stuff that is everywhere now! As for the other ingredients that are being discussed, the introduction of Wisconsin cheese is certainly a major factor. However, the idea that canned sauce is a major problem doesn't compute with me. As I understand it, many places have ALWAYS used canned, it's just a matter of how good the canned sauce is. Outside the US, many countries don't share our disrespect for canned goods. The crappy quality of many American canned goods has fueled our distaste, but in other countries, canned stuff can be very good, and sometimes preferable. There are entire restaurants in places like Barcelona that are celebrated for serving nothing but canned stuff. Similarly, there are quite a few recipes whose original forms call for canned tomatoes rather than fresh. So I'd be surprised if a switch from fresh to canned sauce ever took place in the rank and file NYC pizza joints, and even more surprised if you couldn't make a great slice with the right canned sauce. Then again, they may be buying it from the same distributor as sells them their crappy cheese and spongy dough shells.

I remember it always being that way. Even at the best pizza places in my neighborhood, you had to pick your time of day carefully, and there was plenty of variation day to day. I wouldn't argue with this. The best by the slice places like Ray's were great because the high turnover always led to a fresh pie rather than one sitting under the glass all day. A re-heated slice can still be great if it is re-heated enough. ← I and many pizza geeks actually LIKE the reheated slices in some cases. While a fresh pie only has a crisp crust for about 10 minutes until moisture soaks in, the reheating of slices often adds a desirable char, even if the original maker failed to achieve one. Obviously, having them sit around for really long periods isn't good.

This hasn't been my casual observation. In the neighborhood where I grew up, the Upper West Side, there seem to me to be just as many or more single-establishment pizzerias as there were when I was a kid. Indeed, several of the same ones are around -- they're just not as good. I agree with Steven here. Outside of the tourist areas I don't see too much of a presence of the national chains. ← Sadly, this isn't true any more. Starting with the Upper East, they're starting to move in. They've also invaded Grammercy and Murray Hill a bit. Seemingly all the places where young, post-college types are living.

Oooh, some good points. Didn't think of that, but makes total sense. Although the UWS still has many such places, many other 'hoods have lost them. By count, the UES (where I grew up), for example, now has less than half of the pizza places it used to in certain areas, despite the fact that there are lots of young people living there. And while a few of the ones open in my childhood are still there, most are not. And new ones aren't opening up as often. The same is true in my downtown neighborhood, although we've recently gained a Domino's and a Papa John's. Yuck. I agree that the average NYC slice shop has little to do with Italy in an immediate sense, but others on the chain (Doc?) have pointed out that there is a connection. At the very least, Italian-Americans were the creators of the original NY pizzas, and were for a long time the guardians of the form. While the pizza can stay good, it is often no longer a matter of pride, and is more subject to the economic pressures discussed in this forum. Also, while there was no initial loss of quality, I still think it may have contributed to the long term creep. ←

Well, if nothing else, you've now learned/confirmed the knowledge of this forum...almost everyone gave you the opinion that you'd get a better steak at other places (PL, Strip House, etc.) and that wagyu steaks wouldn't blow you away unless they were done correctly. Now get to the places we told you to go! <snickers to self, despite sympathy for the meal>

Ray's holds a real soft spot for me, too, although my main Ray's was the one on Prince Street, which does hold a somewhat reasonable claim to being the "original" (or at least one of the ones that have to be part of the discussion), not that it really matters. While not a cheese-monster like some, the Prince Street Ray's had a dependably good crust, and nicely balanced levels of ingredients. Nothing earth-shattering, but always good, and therefore comforting and worthy of love. I haven't been back in a few years, but I'd be surprised if it was as consistently good as it used to be. Which brings me to a related observation and some questions: It seems to me (possibly through my permanently rose colored glasses) that pizza in NYC in general used to be much more consistently good than it is now. I'm not talking about "the best" in town, but about the fact that you could walk into any local mom & pop pizza place in any neighborhood (or any of the various permutations called "Ray's") and have a pretty darn good slice of pizza, that while average for NYC, was light years better than what you could get in any other city in the U.S. I can tell you that I learned this the hard way when I went away to college. I'm wondering aloud what the possible reasons for this are, assuming that it's not just a figment of my imagination. Several factors seem to be at play: 1. Various national chains have finally come to NY that previously never could get a foothold here for many years. 2. There are a higher percentage of young out-of-towners who have come to live here, who may not know the difference between good pizza and chain crap. It still amazes me that anyone living in Manhattan would willingly order from Domino's, Papa John's or any other similar joint, but it happens...a lot. 3. Many of the neighborhood pizza places have been supplanted by said chains, as there appear to be fewer of the "indies". 4. Many of the pizza places that remain are no longer run by Italians or Italian-Americans. Initially, it seemed that the Greeks were taking over the pizza world, but now it's almost anyone other than Italians...various Middle Eastern groups, Asians, etc. Also, many of the pizza places are actually just "areas" within delis and other types of places. Have the great local places just been run out of business or have the owners forgotten how to make great pizza? Another thing I've noticed is that among the places that are frequently mentioned as having great slices, at least as far as tourists and B&Ters know (such as Joe's on Bleecker and Carmine, Ray's, Ben's, etc.), many will turn out a really decent slice one day and a terrible one the next. Why are they all so inconsistent now? I don't remember them being that way in the past. As a kid, I remember hearing a rumor/urban legend that all the mom-and-pop pizza places were forced to buy their ingredients from the Mafia. As members of the Italian-American community, the pizza place owners supposedly had to go along with this strongarm situation, and complied, which meant that all the seemingly independent pizza places were getting their ingredients from the same supplier(s). I have no reason to believe this is true (or false), but it sure would explain a lot! It might also explain why the pizza making business appears to have slipped away from its former glory. And, if true, might be the one case I can think of where organized crime was a good thing, and needs to be brought back:) Thoughts? Somehow, I think I may have opened myself up for all sorts of attacks, but at least the discussion should be interesting.