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Everything posted by evo-lution

  1. I've mever seen an example of this, if anything it's always been the exact opposite.
  2. What brands were they? There are so many around it just depends what's available in your marketplace...
  3. Recently got my hands on another bottle of Abbott's Bitters; http://yfrog.com/76wpgj ...and have began the process of reformulation with samples being sent away for analysis. I'll post info as and when I have it but hope to have (sample) batch one finished in a couple of weeks and (sample) batch two a few weeks after. In the meantime I'm going to be researching the history of the company in much the same way I did with my Boker's reformulation.
  4. But we don't differ at all, and what you've said is the point I've been making all along. If you walk into a bar where I'm tending and ask for a Rye Old-Fashioned that's what you'll get. The only questions you'll get from me will be to ask how your day has been and then to ascertain which rye, which bitters, the level of sweetness and what citrus zest you'd like as a garnish. If you stay for a few more drinks I'll likely suggest some other cocktails in the Old-Fashioned style. Take a look at the menu I compiled for Mim and this will back up my point - http://www.scribd.com/doc/36344694/Mim-Aberdeen-Drinks-Listing-2010 - the Old-Fashioned variation we offer in this instance is a Tombstone however it is prepared and served in a different way. Now I'm not saying that is an Old-Fashioned as it's not prepared the same way but as a bartender (and guest more often than not these days) it's a drink I can recommend to someone who likes a cocktail in that style. The only thing I will disagree with you on is that you say it's a drink and not a family of drinks. A specific drink has one recipe but when a drink is defined by something such as spirit, sugar, water and bitters then that to me is a family based on the elements you speak about; The other factor is that not every guest is as educated as yourself when it comes to drinks and drinks history so sometimes alternatives or twists should be offered to make drinks like the classic Old-Fashioned more accessible, or to at least open the eyes to someone who hasn't yet experienced a specific category of drinks. I can think of one close friend and guest who can't stomach whisk(e)y due to drinking too much one night as a youngster, yet he's a huge fan of Rum Old-Fashioneds with just a tear-drop of Maraschino. Does that drink really need a new name when it is prepared in exactly the same way as your Rye Old-Fashioned?
  5. I agree with what your saying but there is no 'best' way, essentially this is an element of reading your guest. A lot of people have preconceptions about what they like and are quick to announce that they don't like *insert spirit here* and I find with increasing regularity that finding out their preferred choice of spirit allows me to introduce them to something new or something that is guaranteed to have them back for more. If they say vodka they'll likely end up on gin, if they say whisk(e)y there's a World of opportunity, same for rum, breaking down the boundaries of tequila is also great fun, brandy/cognac/armagnac is something that few have tried yet many love, and so on... Asking about the spirit, finding out what they typically drink, moving onto flavour profiles (sweet, sour, strong, dry, bitter, creamy, an so on) and finding out about their evening thus far and the plan for the rest makes perfect sense. Within that, you've also started a conversation with the guest, and more often than not the guest appreciates that you're going to this extra effort of constructing a drink based entirely on their wants and needs. Building a level of trust between bartender and guest is of the utmost importance for me.
  6. Ernst Happel is a former Austrian footballer (soccer player) who passed away in 1992. To mark his death the Austrians changed the name of their Praterstadion to the Ernst Happel Stadion. The Praterstadion was also the stadium where former Scottish footballer Andy Gray scored his first competitive goal for Scotland. Andy Gray now works for Sky Sports in the UK and presents his own football program after a weekend's series of games which is called The Last Word. Which brings me back to my drink. I think there's an unintended similarity between The Last Word and and my Ernst Happel cocktail in their structure and flavour...
  7. Correct, still waiting on approval for these...
  8. It's St-Germain. Because I don't live in the 17-1800s and the term Cock-tail is no longer used as it once was, and as already pointed out it'd be foolish to try and change that especially when you have the Old-Fashioned which is recognised by most (including those not working in the industry) as the term used for the drinks family of spirit, sugar, water and bitters. And it is a drink created in the style of the Old-Fashioned Cock-tail.
  9. Great post. Another problem for me is if I had come on here and said; ...someone would respond and say, "Sounds good but it's fundamentally a Tequila Old-Fashioned. Maybe call it a Chiapas Old-Fashioned." This is a very interesting point and something I agree with but I think that the majority of bartenders ask about the base spirit first to have a better grasp of the guest they're dealing with. From there you'd then proceed to build a drink that is perfectly suited to their palate and is appropriate for that moment in time (aperitif, digestif, first drink of the evening, and so on).
  10. I'm not arguing for a redefinition, instead looking at it from a modern (bartender and consumer) standpoint taking into account the historical and mixological aspects of the drink. Personally speaking I don't like the separation of the terms Old-Fashioned and Cock-tail and think they should be used together because, well for me, they are one and the same. I'm also of the opinion that (nowadays) an Old-Fashioned Cock-tail is anything that's built around the definition of spirit, sugar, water and bitters. Most bars nowadays have their own Old-Fashioned variants that stay true to the drink from both a historical and mixological standing. From what I've seen none are proclaiming their twists to be THE Old-Fashioned Cock-tail, merely offering up a modern take on a classic drink (see my Chiapas Old Fashioned or Phil Ward's Oaxacan Old Fashioned as examples). These drinks, having taken the name of the classic Old-Fashioned Cock-tail, are not doing any damage or disservice to the original, if anything it's a wink, nod and doff of the cap to that family. For those aforementioned drinks to qualify then adding a dash or two of Curacao is also acceptable for me. If you'd rather not have the Curacao, that's fine. Should someone wish to have a historically accurate Old-Fashioned Cock-tail then that's what they ask for, citing your weapon of choice as the base spirit. But has that ever changed? Has there ever been a drinks family with only one recipe? What is a Julep? Or a Collins? Or a Sour? Or a Fix? Or in this case, an Old-Fashioned Cock-tail? And let's not get onto the subject of this 1798 reference to Cock-tail, which was supposedly a drink containing gin and ginger syrup... As you mentioned earlier the loss of the term and family of drinks that we know as the Cock-tail is what's blurred the lines here but I've no real problem with that as languages change and words take on new meanings. What I don't get is those who staunchly defend the Old-Fashioned and the use of that term have no qualms about using the word Cock-tail when it comes to all mixed drinks? To me that is illogical.
  11. To clarify, the Old-Fashioned is a term for the Old-Fashioned Cock-tail of spirit, sugar, water and bitters. There is no strict definition and no singular recipe as it's a drinks family that was initially consumed with a specific purpose. Whilst I agree that the term was first penned in response to the abundance of new styles of Cock-tail that bartenders were making I really don't think that the inclusion of a dash of Curacao in the drink was one that the revolt was built around. The historical and mixological aspect backs that up in my opinion. If some on here qualify the Oaxacan Old-Fashioned as a true Old-Fashioned Cock-tail but see an Old-Fashioned Cock-tail with a dash or two of Curacao as something that doesn't belong in that family then there is some warped logic going on... Anyway, going back to recipes and a tea Old-Fashioned, this is a great drink; Chiapas Old Fashioned (Adam Elmegirab 2009) 50ml Calle 23 Reposado tequila 12.5ml Green tea infused sugar syrup 2 Dashes Dr. Adam Elmegirab’s Dandelion & Burdock Bitters 1 Dash Regan’s Orange Bitters #6 Method: Add all ingredients to mixing glass fill with cubed ice and stir for fifteen-twenty seconds. Julep strain Glass: Rocks / Old Fashioned Garnish: Grapefruit zest Ice: Cubed
  12. You're forgetting that it was you who brought up the Cherry Heering recipe and not me. Still not sure what your point is here though. And I'd also be intrigued to hear about the Old-Fashioned you were given in Vietnam... You're the only one who doesn't qualify the Oaxacan Old-Fashioned as an Old-Fashioned... The only evidence that has been presented in this thread is that the definition is not as strict as you're making it out to be. I am not talking about outlandish drinks like you keep suggesting, my point throughout has been about the addition of Curacao to a Cock-tail and how that is still technically an Old-Fashioned (because that is just a term to describe a Cock-tail). There is nothing in this thread or in any of the literature I own or have read that suggests otherwise, in fact, it backs up what I've been saying. You only need to read Dave's post to see that. This then moved onto the fact (again which is undeniable) that the definition is not strict. Remember that the Cock-tail was a morning drink which I'm sure people would take however the hell they liked it. The Old-Fashioned Cock-tail is a family of drinks, not a recipe. If you admit there are variations then what have you been arguing about? You only need to scroll up to see that the Old-Fashioned Cock-tail is not clear cut. The tea analogy was brought in because from a historical standpoint it's rarely made the way it once was, but I bet you have no qualms naming modern variants by the same Old-Fashioned name? To bring lemonade into it is just daft.
  13. But we all know that the addition of vermouth gives you a different drink family, which although it is technically still a Cock-tail, is now considered a separate family altogether (Martini-Manhattan-etc.) Why can't you? There are Old-Fashioned Cocktail variants available in bars across the World . It's a bit silly to say my argument breaks down considering yours is based around what you get when you walk into a bar and order an Old Fashioned. Any one of us could walk into fifty different bars in Scotland, England, the US, Germany and France, order an Old-Fashioned in each and never be given the same drink twice. You see an Old-Fashioned as nothing but whisk(e)y, sugar, water and bitters which is fine, but it's simply not the case as has been pointed out in this thread countless times. I am not opposed to using anything, it is you who is saying that it is not an Old-Fashioned Cocktail when the fact of the matter tells you otherwise. I'm intrigued to know what you'd get in your house if you asked for a cup of tea...
  14. Sounds intriguing, must give this a bash and have a think about a name for you. I recently created the following drink; Ernst Happel 25ml London Dry Gin 25ml Strega 12.5ml The Bitter Truth Apricot Brandy 12.5ml Kirsch Eau de Vie 25ml Fresh lemon juice 2 Dashes Regan’s Orange Bitters Method: Add all ingredients to a mixing glass fill with cubed ice and shake hard for ten seconds. Fine strain Glass: Vintage cocktail Garnish: N/A Ice: N/A The name has a great back story to it...
  15. I'd say it's pretty easy to work out should you have the time to read the last couple of pages. Which is the problem with your argument as history tells us that an Old-Fashioned is a Cock-tail and that (as far as we're aware) a Cock-tail consists of spirit, sugar, water and bitters. So that's the historical stand-point covered. Taking all that into account and then looking at this family of drinks from the other side of the coin it'd be impossible to argue that a drink consisting of *base spirit, **sugar, ***bitters and ****water is not an Old-Fashioned Cocktail. That's the mixological stand-point ticked. Other than that we can apply our own logic and taste to what we expect from an Old-Fashioned Cocktail... As I've been saying all along you're applying a strict definition to a style of drink that doesn't have a strict definition. History tells us that, and our understanding of the drink from a mixological standing also backs that up. *Tequila & Mezcal or Brandy & Curacao **Agave or sugar syrup ***Orange Bitters or Boker's Bitters ****Ice
  16. To be fair you don't need to do the BAR course to know that you should confirm what it is the guest wants because, as you say, the drink is very much down to individual preference. However, that's not really the issue at the heart of this debate. As I've already said, I wholly agree with you about the variability between the definition of Cock-tail/Old-Fashioned, and within that variable a dash or two of Curacao more than qualifies. They agreed 150+ years ago so... Judging by the most recent comments in reply to me in this thread I'd expect them to say that it wasn't a true Old-Fashioned because, well, it's not Old-Fashioned.
  17. But then there are Cock-tail recipes (in Jerry Thomas particularly) that have citrus peel and this was before the Old-Fashioned was even a thought. I don't think there needs to be a difference between the two. Also intrigued to know the thoughts - of those who are staunchly defending the Old-Fashioned having no Curacao - when it comes to an Oaxaca Old Fashioned. Do they believe that is an Old Fashioned or not?
  18. No, I'm merely suggesting that the spirit-sugar-water-bitters definition isn't as strict as some people are making out. The Old-Fashioned wasn't a reaction to the cocktail recipes Jerry Thomas had in his book (with some including a dash or two of Curacao) but to other drinks that followed. The matter of fact was that the Cock-tail had a purpose as a drink, maybe a dash or two of Curacao made it more palatable. Add in the fact that Curacao is a spirit (and the definition doesn't say single spirit), it's also sweet (helping out the sugar factor) and it can have some bitter characteristics then... The definition is not being evolved and it's not exactly black and white. The fact that it's a single definition from 1806 that isn't particularly clear-cut says a lot to me...
  19. I'm not asking to expand anything, as asked already; - By definition, what is an Old Fashioned? - And likewise, what is a Cock-tail? - And where is this written rule that says that adding a dash of Curacao stops it from being an Old-Fashioned or a Cock-tail? At the end of the day, they are the same thing. The definition of which is spirit-sugar-water-bitters. The Old-Fashioned being no more than a term or phrase that was used when talking about the Cock-tail and ended up becoming a name for it.
  20. I didn't really want to go down this road but it looks like we'll have to... Anyway, by definition, what is an Old Fashioned? And likewise, what is a Cock-tail? And where is this written rule that says that adding a dash of Curacao stops it from being an Old-Fashioned or a Cock-tail? I am fully aware that the likelihood was that the Cock-tail (which the Old-Fashioned is based on - the first reference to Old-Fashioned is Old-Fashioned Cocktail IIRC) started off as just spirit, sugar, water and dashes of bitters with no other dashes of liqueur (in this case Curacao), but I think we're in an age where we can't possibly say that if you do add a dash of Curacao to an Old-Fashioned that it ceases to become such and should now be termed a Fancy Cock-tail, Improved Cock-tail, or something else. If you strip it down to its bare bones the addition of Curacao actually ticks a couple of boxes from the spirit-sugar-water-bitters definition, by way of the fact that it is technically a spirit and it is sweet. The way I see it, there is no strict definition for these two drinks (which are the same thing to me, one has only disappeared from use because of the fact it is now used in reference to all mixed drinks) and neither does there need to be. The definition is simple, a spiritous base, a sweetening agent, a bittering agent and some water to soften and marry the ingredients. If you want to add a dash or two of Curacao, please do, it won't make for a lesser drink just a different drink. Drinks evolve, so long as we understand where they come from and why they've changed then let it be. We can all be pedants and bring up written references to back up your side of the debate but there's typically another reference that will debunk your claim and leave it down to interpretation and an understanding of the cards laid out on the table. In this case and in my opinion, the Old-Fashioned is just a terminology for an older style of drink, the Cock-tail. The Cock-tail definition as we understand it is relatively simple but there is a little grey area where it's not as black and white as some may wish it to be. And anyway, the most important factor is whether it tastes good or not, everything else is secondary...
  21. An Old-Fashioned is a Cock-tail. Lest we forget that we're not talking about a specific recipe here, but a family of drinks consisting of spirit, sugar, water and bitters. A dash (or two) of curacao doesn't change the drink in such a way that it isn't part of the same family.
  22. But the Old-Fashioned is a Cock-tail, and some Cock-tails call for Curacao, so I stand by my point; adding a dash or two of Curacao does not take it away from being an Old-Fashioned Cocktail. It may not be the drink to please everyone, but it works...
  23. Sam's got it here. This is exactly why it's called an Old Fashioned. When people started screwing around with the basic formula, trying to make something new, then someone eventually to ask for a "whiskey cock-tail in the old-fashioned style." Old Fashioned is all about no frills. That's kind of the point. One frill, and you've moved away from that category. A Whisk(e)y Cock-tail, yeah, but there was good reason why they introduced dashes of Curacao to Gin or Brandy Cock-tails. Adding a dash or two of Curacao does not take it away from being an Old-Fashioned Cocktail.
  24. Thank your lucky stars you haven't met me yet. But in all seriousness, the ridiculousness and absurdities of the various obstacles we've all had to overcome are offset by the good things we get from producing bitters. Knowing that your product is being used around the World is a pretty good feeling... Most producers are either bartenders, or enthusiasts, with a shared passion for the industry. The great thing from a consumer's point of view is that the profit motivation (of those that I've come in contact with) is often secondary to the desire to put great bottlings on the market. Don't get me wrong, we'd all appreciate some extra coin in our pouch but so long as people enjoy using our bitters we'll keep banging them out!
  25. Okay, Old Fashioned Curacao Cocktail it is then.
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