evo-lution
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Posts posted by evo-lution
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No where did I say that there was no difference between the 37.5% and the 75% bitters.
Post 841 is where this started.
- 37.5% abv bitters have a specific flavour
- 75% abv bitters have a specific flavour
- Adding two dashes of 37.5% bitters does not equate to one dash of the 75% abv bitters for a multitude of reasons. It also has nothing to do with changing the final abv, it's about altering flavour by adding something (bitters) which has a dramatic effect on drinks, especially at two wildly differing abvs. I'm still baffled as to why you're contesting this? It's just bizarre, even moreso when you've admittedly not put it into practice.
It is clear from my example (and from common sense) that diluting 75% bitters to 37.5% bitters and dispensing twice as much yields an identical drink. Not identical tasting bitters if dashed onto your finger and stuck in your mouth. We all agree on that. Identical drinks if dashed into a drink in concentration-adjusted amounts (twice as much of the half-as-strong bitters in this case). You seem to be saying that this is not true.How is it clear exactly? It's wrong. The two abvs have their own unique flavour. The aromatic compounds are impacted/influenced dependent on the abv, and adding twice as much of the lower abv does not equate to the larger abv. Maybe consider what my job is...
The original genesis of this discussion was your statement that by diluting with water immediately prior to bottling, you are changing the flavor of some botanicals relative to others. Absent precipitation or time-related aging or oxidation effects, I can see no justification for this and logic would seem to preclude any.I guess you learn something new everyday. As an example, go grab a whisky or gin and add a teardrop of water, then tell me there's no flavour change. Now, put that thought towards something that is flavoured with a variety of botanicals. Are you sure about your logic?
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OK, let's follow this to its logical conclusion. Here's a thought experiment:
Two dasher bottles, one half full with 75% base bitters. One half full with water.
Make two 90ml Manhattans.
Put one 1ml dash from each dasher into drink.
The drink has 1ml of full-strength bitters in 92ml of drink. Sip. Yum.
Pour the contents of dasher bottle with water into the full strength one, resulting in a 37.5% bitters.
Put two 1ml dashes into the drink.
The drink has 1 ml of full-strength bitters pre-mixed with 1 ml of pure water in a 92ml of drink. Sip. Yum.
The two drinks are chemically identical (having the same number of molecules of each constituent compound), assuming nothing precipitated when the bitters were diluted in the dasher bottle.
This is actually hilarious. You cannot be serious? The conversation is regarding the difference in flavour between 75% abv bitters and 37.5% abv bitters. If you can't see that there is a difference there's no point in continuing the conversation.
Dashing water. As I said up-thread, "This forum can be odd sometimes."
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Say you start with 75% abv infused alcohol as your bitters base. You can , for example, dilute it with 50% water to end up with a 50% abv bitters which is now comprised of 1/3 water and 2/3 original infusion. Or you can keep it at full strength as a 75% abv bitters.
I have no idea why you're telling me this.
No one is arguing that the 75% abv bitters and the 50% abv bitters won't taste different straight out of the bottle.Did you read above?
So now let's say that you add 0.5 ml of bitters to 10 ml of water. In the case of the 75% bitters, we now have 10 ml of water and 0.5 of the original infusion. In the case of the 50% bitters, we have 10.16 ml of water and 0.33 ml of the original infusion. Effectively what we have done is dilute the original infusion by 20X in the version using the full strength bitters and by 30X in the version using the 50% abv bitters. That's a pretty big difference, and depending on taste thresholds and the intensity of the original infusion, these two glasses of liquid might taste very different.Which is what I've been saying throughout - with two differing abvs you will have two different tasting products, and 1 dash of 75% abv bitters is not the same flavour you'll get with two dashes of 37.5% bitters, as the two dashes still equate to 37.5% abv.
Second is for use "in the field." One would like for a bitters to have an intensity that contributes the correct amount of flavor, aroma, etc. to drinks when used in the convenient and expected amounts. An especially intense bitters might be tricky to use if there is always the danger that a dash will overwhelm the drink. One problem I have with a lot of modern bitters is that they are diluted too much, so that 4 or 5 dashes are needed where 2 with a "standard" bitters would suffice.First bolded part - Which I expect the producer considers in the production of their bitters as already said.
Second bolded part - I already addressed this with you earlier in this thread so don't think we need to go over it again.
Sam and I are assuming that when you dilute to bottle strength that nothing louches or precipitates out. Obviously if flavor components become solids in suspension or settled to the bottom of the dasher, then the flavor of the two end drinks could well be different.
The same product at two differing abvs taste differently, it's that simple!
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No, I'm an engineer, not a bitters maker.
Are you saying that if you take take your bitters prior to setting the final proof at, say, 75% ABV and put one dash into a Manhattan. Then dillute equal volumes of your bitters with pure water and put 2 dashes into another Manhattan, that these two drinks will taste different? That there is something magical about dilution in the bitters bottle that happens differently from the dilution that happens in the glass?
I think that I must be misunderstanding you. I obviously understand that during the infusion, different concentrations of alcohol will affect the infusion rate of different botanicals. I'm only referring to setting the final ABV once the bitters are made. I just don't see how that could differentially affect the flavor other than their overall concentration.
I really don't understand how you're not getting this?
You are adding a specific flavour, and that flavour is dependent on the final abv. The flavour of 75% abv bitters will be vastly different to that of 37.5% abv bitters. Two dashes of 37.5% abv bitters will not give you the same flavour as the 75% abv bitters as the two dashes of 37.5% bitters are still 37.5%, or in effect doubled of that particular flavour that the 37.5% abv offers.
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Out of curiousity, have you put this in practice?
The flavour of the bitters will not be the same across different strengths when you consider the various botanicals that are used in their construction, and that is a consideration of the producer prior to settling on a final abv.
One dash of 75% abv bitters is 75% abv, two dashes of 37.5% abv bitters is still 37.5% abv. It doesn't get stronger because there's twice as much, it's still 37.5% abv. And I can assure you there will be a flavour difference between those two strengths...
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Why is that? Yes, sure you're likely to reduce the proof for bottling by adding water. But that seems entirely separate from the question of whether it makes any sense at all to infuse the spices into 100% water separately from infusing them into 75% alcohol (which, of course, is 25% water) in order to get some kind of qualitatively different "water infusion" that is added to the flavor profile.
This forum can be odd sometimes. Forget the 75% / 25% thing, to dilute to bottling strength (whatever that may be) you're going to be adding additional water which has no flavour.
So, one of the reasons for the separate water infusion (as I understand it) is so you are adding a flavourful water to the infused spirit, thus not diluting the flavour by so much. In essence you have infused spirit and infused water but it's an unnecessary step as I've mentioned previously, doubly so with the boiling water step added
This confuses me. Are you saying that diluting with water as a final step would change the flavor in the cocktail (other than increase the amount needed)? The contribution of the alcohol in the bitters would not materially change the water/alcohol ratio of the final drink. It would seem that the any difference would disappear once a dash or two goes into the glass.
I'm sure you're aware that the flavour of any spirit changes considerably dependent on the abv, and this does have an impact on the drink. In the development of any bottling the abv is a major consideration for this reason..
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That's exactly my point! Since you're using, let's say, 75% ethanol, you're already infusing into 25% water. This means that there isn't any point in doing a separate infusion into water -- which is what a bunch of these recipes say to do -- because you've already infused into water. That's all I'm commenting on, and we're saying the same thing: that it's not necessary. I'm simply pointing out that the spices, etc. have already been infused into water by virtue of the fact that there is water in the alcohol used to do the initial infusion.
I get what you're saying but that's working on the presumption you're bottling at around 75%abv...
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The point I was making is that one could theoretically have a "macerate in water" step if the idea was that the original step would extract alcohol-soluble compounds and the water step would extract water-soluble compounds. But, unless the original alcohol infusion was in absolute alcohol (i.e., 100% ethanol) then the botanicals were already being infused into water. This, then, would render an additional water-only infusion superfluous. I presume this is the theory behind this practice?
Who is going to have 100% ethanol?!?
If you're macerating in, let's say, 75%abv spirit you'll more than likely want to dilute with water to a lower bottling strength for a number of reasons, namely the flavour difference between aromatic compounds at differing strengths. For the bitters I produce there is a dilution step however it doesn't involve separate water macerations or the boiling water stage which is unnecessary and serves no purpose.
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Yes. I don't quite understand this step. Unless you are using absolute alcohol for the infusion step, then you are already macerating the botanicals in water.
Water will be added to dilute to bottling strength after the original maceration in (high-proof) alcohol.
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I intend to pop back in and write some more on what is happening when I have a little more time but, long story short, there is no need to macerate the botanicals separately in water which is essentially creating the problem. I see this (and the botanical/boiling water technique) recommended in various recipes and it isn't worthwhile.
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A wee adaptation of The Bumble-Bee Cocktail from Charles H. Baker's South American Gentleman's Companion is really hitting the spot in the cold weather;
50ml / 2oz Kraken Black Spiced Rum
3-4 Dashes Dr. Heather Duncan's Christmas Bitters
25ml / 1oz Fresh lime juice
20ml / 0.75oz Honey syrup
Fresh egg white
Method: Add egg white, lime juice and honey to mixing glass in that order followed by remaining ingredients, shake without ice for 5 seconds then add ice and shake for a further 10 seconds
Glass: Frozen coupette
Garnish: Orange zest (spiral)
Ice: N/A
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Taking inspiration from the Seelbach, this cocktail was created with the purpose of accentuating the flavours we commonly associate with this time of year; fruit, spice, aged spirits and sparkling wine. The perfect showcase for Dr. Heather Duncan's Christmas Bitters.
As for the name, that's a story I may share with you over a beverage some time...
The Mariner
30ml / 1oz Ron Botran Reserva
15ml / 0.5oz Pierre Ferrand Dry Curacao Ancienne Methode
3 Dashes Dr. Heather Duncan's Christmas Bitters
2 Dashes Peychaud's Bitters
Top with 50ml / 2oz Veuve Clicquot Yellow Label
Method: Add all ingredients to mixing glass fill with cubed ice and stir for 15-20 seconds. Strain into glass and top with Champagne
Glass: Chilled coupette
Garnish: Orange zest
Ice: N/A
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All of which is to say that, from a functional standpoint, I see no reason you couldn't tweak recipes to substitute amaretto for orgeat.
I'd disagree with that, the difference between the two is vast. I can't think of a single drink where it'd work as an adequate substitute without offering a massively different end-product.
So syrups will go bad with a bit of booze in them? I've had bottles of simple and grenadine around for about a month with nothing going off yet.... is 2:1 a better preservative? I'm keeping everything in the fridge, for the record.
If it's being used as a preservative it doesn't make a huge amount of difference, it's the amount of sugar that is key to shelf-life.
I recommend adding a little brandy or Grand Marnier for a little more depth, and also roasting the almonds prior to blanching them. I've a really good recipe on my website though note it should read 5ml of orange-flower/rose water and not 25ml.
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Some of you will have heard of, or seen, Dr. Heather Duncan's Christmas Bitters on my webpage, I know this because a fair few of you have been in touch about them. Other than the first few bottlings that were made in 2009 they've not been available, that was until The Elves returned this month to make a small batch. Yes you did read that right, Elves.
Well, we all like to know the story behind the creation of our favourite bottlings right? And we all like cocktails. And music. And bitters of course. Why not take a few minutes to have a read (and a listen) of the story of Dr. Heather Duncan's Christmas Bitters.
http://thejerrythomasproject.blogspot.com/2011/11/christmas-bitters-by-heather-duncan-and.html
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I was under the impression there now is a real peach brandy out there as described here by Splificator. I hope so since I finally have a bottle or three on the way. Just wish it was a bit easier to acquire! I've been working on it for over a month now.
Yeah, the conversation here picked up from elsewhere (not another forum, honest
) regarding such a bottling. -
Oh, please do! Just as the world really does need a real peach brandy, it also needs a real peach bitters!
It's been a long process so far (getting to Boker's proportions now) but I'm seeing an end point within reach. Just a little more patience is all I can ask for!
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Hey thanks, I had no idea that all those recipes were out on Facebook! Always looking for new things to do with your bitters so that's a great repository
No problem, Facebook are removing the discussions section of fan pages (for some unknown reason) at the end of October which will speed up my plan to update the recipe's archive of my newest Dr. Adam's webpage. As soon as I get a few hours spare I'll be adding the lot, and a whole load more, across there. I'll be sure to let everyone know here as and when.
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Hah, you're just about the last guy on here I'd expect to be sharing a bitters recipe!
Take that back, take that back now!
As a working bartender myself I've always tried to perfect my own housemade products, from syrups to flavoured sugars, liqueurs to sodas, with a high degree of success. It takes a lot of hard-work and dedication to produce a product that's (at a minimum) the equal of what is commercially available but with the advent of social media and having a wealth of information at your fingertips there's no reason why you can't have a go.Giving something back to the global bar community is a small way of saying thank-you to everyone who continues to support my products. With that in mind, alongside my bitters bottlings I've made a concerted effort to release recipes for products which I feel bars and bartenders should produce on their own. Falernum, Orgeat and these cherries are just three of the recipes in the public domain.
There are further product recipes to come, including some for bitters that aren't just the usual crappy, "cup of bourbon and spices..." that others gift you.
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Slow infusion...
(by way of the freezing method as described above) has worked very well for me though admittedly further experimentation is needed.
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Bump to see if anyone has messed around with peach bitters and was interested in sharing a recipe. I feel like jumping into bitters making, and I think peach is something I would get some use of while improving on the one existing product on the market.
Further to my comments above, I have been working on reintroducing Peach Bitters, as things stand I have various prototypes, an abundance of research and I'm currently putting vintage samples through the gas chromotography process. No real timeline as yet but I hope to have something on the market to join my portfolio sooner rather than later. Very excited with how things have developed thus far...
Regarding sharing a recipe, not going to happen.
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Another way that I recommend is to slow down the infusion, in this case add your base spirit/alcohol to a freezer then add mint leaves to that. I've had a high degree of success though I'm still in experimentational stages with regards ratios.
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You need to step foot behind a bar and you'll quickly realise why this will never become a feature in a bar that's serious about drinks.
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Agreed. I'm just crabby about a line that has somehow made its way onto our backbar and it... uh... hrm....
Intrigued. I would agree that there are maybe a few too many coming onto market (specifically in the US) with huge ranges that seem to be perfected after little-to-no research/development and very little info available regarding their production other than brand name and flavour.
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While I'm on I should mention that my bitters webpage was recently updated and is worth exploring. I'll be devoting some time to the recipes section in the coming days and have some more info to add, should anyone have a recipe they'd like to share on the page please let me know.
All About Bitters (Part 2)
in Spirits & Cocktails
Posted
Flavour changes. Ask anyone who has been involved in the development stages of a product and ask them about the differences dependent on the abv. Why you struggle with this is beyond me? It's not a viewpoint, it's a matter of fact. Various aromatics will come to the fore dependent on the difference. As another example, have you tried Martin Miller's Original alongside the Westbourne Strength? The difference between the two is startling and their only difference, yep you guessed it, the abv.
As for your experiment, some of the greatest minds in the world of Whisky are all in agreement regarding the difference a drop of water can make. I've actually lost count of the number of tastings I've sat in and/or hosted and had this demonstrated.