Sneakeater

Really?? Are you sure? Do we have any access to the files of the ABC? Do we have any statistics whatsoever about where the violations where the law was applied took place? Or are we just guessing because, well, we've either been served underage or had our underage children served at finer restaurants and now have the expectation that is should be thus? ← I think we're operating on the assumption that things tend to be pretty well-publicized here -- liquor license woes being an especially fruitful subject of gossip -- but this is something that none of us, with our various levels of conncectedness to the NYC dining industry, has heard about happening. I think we're also, as you said, extrapolating from the fact that everyplace seems to be operating on the same set of assumptions. While that isn't determinative, it's highly suggestive. (Moreover, just as a matter of words, if something always happens to you, I don't understand how your expectation of it is "subjective" rather than "objective.") I recognize, Katie, that you know MUCH more about this stuff than I do -- and that your connections are infinitely better than mine. So if you know anything to the contrary of anything I've said, I'd bow to you in a minute.

This shows how NYC-centric this issue is (or originally was). Almost nobody drives to fine-dining restaurants in Manhattan. (At least nobody local [now this can devolve into another B&T discussion]. I wonder if Bryan did -- he was coming from New Jersey, as I recall.)

I knew somebody was going to say that. It looks like a class issue. But OTOH, if you think the real-world implications of serving wine to minors eating with their parents in EMP and serving drinks to minors in TGIF aren't different, you're blinding yourself to reality. Moreover, if you present it as a class issue, all you're doing is giving regulators an incentive to start enforcing the laws against high-end places, so as not to seem to be making class-based distinctions. Is that a result you deem desirable? Or would it be a complete waste of resources? BTW, we're not talking here about anyone's "subjective" sense of applicability of the law to themselves. We're talking about the way the law is and always has been ACTUALLY applied. There's nothing "subjective" about it.

Key words.

That new macaroni and cheese place just opened up near there. I wish I could remember more information, but it should be searchable on the internet if you're interested in a macaroni and cheese place.

Without wanting to sound too obsessed about this, to me the salient point is that, throughout all Giulini/Bloomberg nightlife crackdowns, there has never been a hint of a peep of a move against wine service in fine-dining establishments. (I'm not talking about CB3's hyperNIMBY attempt to block any and all new liquor license applications -- and note that EMP is nowhere near CB3.) And really, that's pretty consistent with what both those administrations have seemed to be concerned with, which is keeping the streets (in a metophorical sense) clean, quite, and orderly.

Koreatown on 32nd Street (if you like Korean). There are a million choices, many of them good. There's a thread here sorting it out that you can probably find by searching for "Korean." The Nedicks in Penn Station used to be pretty good -- they adopted this menu a few years ago featuring different regional hot dog styles from around the country -- but I can't find it (meaning the Penn Station Nedicks) anymore and wonder if it's closed. Keen's Chophouse (it's actually now called Keen's Steakhouse, but I refuse to acknowledge that pussyfooted market-driven alteration) if you want something heavier and much more expensive. Paddy's Osyter Bar, near Penn Station, is famous. I've never been. I've never even seen it (to my knowledge). I wonder if it's still open?

In an uncharasteric attempt to get information rather than speculate wildly, I called Momofuku Ssam Bar. Their phone message said that they now serve "lunch" from whenever they open until 6 p.m., and "dinner" from 6 p.m. until 2 a.m. There was no mention of the 10:00 p.m. to 10:30 p.m. gap that is listed on their website.

Let me put it this way. I'm a lawyer (not in this industry). It's my job, not just to advise my clients what the laws are on the books, but how they're likely to be applied. My clients can then make informed judgments about what to do. I'm not talking about corruption or anything like that, but rather about giving fair due to the way the law is applied in reality. We're not talking about normative line-drawing here (about what should be). We're talking about the fairly commonsense approach that actually is taken. Moreover, it's striking that virtually everybody in the industry seems to understand this. It's extremely rare -- I'd have said unheard of, but maybe Daniel can tell me differently -- for an accompanied at-least-mid-to-late-teenage minor to be refused wine in a high-end NYC restaurant. On the other hand, it's probably rare for wine to be served to minors in lower-end places. The proprietors of the high-end restaurants aren't daredevils, and the proprietors of the lower-end places aren't scardeycats. They all just know the system, and have evaluated the risks.

That's the point. The people behind the laws eat out just like everybody else. They KNOW what's going on. The fact that there's NEVER (in memory) been any enforcement of these laws at a high-end restaurant is a good indication that the risk isn't there in any significant way.

Expect, yes. Withhold gratuity, I don't think so. Not totally, anyway. If I thought it was the decision or work of the server rather than the policy of the restaurant, though (as appears to be the case here), I'd probably leave 15% instead of 20%.

It's still a risk they are taking, though. The way they are treated now or by most inspectors may change one day. If an underage person gets away with something like this at a place like EMP, enjoy it it as a little bonus in your young life. Again, it doesn't bother me they get served. They aren't a bad person. The parents aren't bad people for allowing it. The server isn't a bad *person* for allowing it to happen. But they are putting the liquor license at risk. That's not something you should *EXPECT* to happpen or demand have happen. ← I would certainly not demand it. But I'd expect it. I also disagree with you that they're taking a risk, if you define "risk" as meaning something that actually has a chance of happening. (Finally, I don't think it's the server who's "allowing" it to happen. It's the restaurant, top down. As Sam said earlier, this is no secret from anyone involved, from the proprietor on down. Nobody's claiming that the waiters are -- or ought to be -- sneaking drinks to minors behind management's back.) (One more "finally." I don't view this AT ALL as a "young person" "getting away with" something. I view this as an aspect of civilized living -- which the regulators apparently recognize as well. I think that viewing it as "getting away with" something is, in fact, the problem.)

I'm 50 and look like I'm 1000. A few years ago I was carded going into Hogs & Heifers (don't ask why I was going in there). The same laws apply to EMP as to Hogs & Heifers, but if you think they're treated remotely the same way by the regulatory authorities, you don't do much business in New York. (And, I should add, there's nothing wrong with that. The regulators are being intelligent.)

I agree with all Sam's posts here -- including (I'm sorry to say) that last one.

Their website now, rather bizarrely, says that they have daily (including Mon. and Tues.) hours extending to 10:00 p.m., and then daily (including Mon. and Tues.) late-night hours starting at 10:30 p.m. They don't say when the late-night menu begins to be offered. Frankly, I find it hard to believe that they really close daily from 10:00 p.m. to 10:30 p.m. (unless maybe that's menu changeover time), but who knows?

Thinking it over, probably (or at least possibly) what happened is that the server took the order, and then went to the back and asked somebody, "I just took a wine order for someone I'm pretty sure is underage. Can I serve him?" And of course, whomever the server asked felt he had to answer "no". I think the REAL policy is, "don't ask don't tell." I think most servers understand it that way, and I think management prefers it that way.

I considered the possibility but rejected it as unlikely. I take nieces and friends' children out to dinner all the time. I've simply never encountered what happened to Bryan. I can't recall that I've ever taken them to any Danny Meyer restaurants, so I can't say for sure that the Meyer group's policy doesn't differ in such a big way from that of every other comparable NYC restaurant that I'm aware of. But I tend to doubt that it does. But the real point is, I was trying to be generous when I attributed this to an errant server. Because if it came from management, I think it's WAY out of line. Unless, of course, they're privy to info not generally disseminated suggesting that the City or State is about to start cracking down on liquor sales to minors in high-end restaurants.

I'd forgotten. I really liked it, too!

That's DEFINITELY your arm. I'd recognize it anywhere.

I guess we're going to have to stop calling it the late-night menu.

Audrey Saunders's MarTEAni cocktail has been a big personal favorite for years, from her days at the Bemmelmans Bar in New York to her current tenure at Pegu Club, also in New York.

OH???????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Of course, at 6 PM they'd have a full panolply of options that are more in line with what they actually appear to be looking for.)

Many people have complained that Perry Street's menu is almost uniquely uninformative in terms of giving you an idea of what dishes are going to be like. (I sort of enjoy the surprise myself. But I can see how it could be a pain.)

I've never had a meal at Carlos that was less than delightful. Most of them were much more than that. I've often thought, from here in New York, that Carlos must be one of the most underrated restaurants in the country.

Also, Little Owl serves late -- and if you go late enough, you might even be able to get in!