KevV

Sure. It'd be great to tip them as well, or send over a round of beers! However, someone will have to start a new thread ('Tipping the farm') so we can figure out how to manage that. Yes, of course. But this seems to suggest that kitchen staff must know what they're getting into when they take a job, and so any poor conditions they suffer are, therefore, their own fault. Same as what someone wrote earlier - 'As long as people are willing to work in the kitchen for what owners are offering, that's what they're going to get paid.'I'm more interested in this: I think if more diners knew about the pay disparity between cooks and servers, they might want to channel some of their tip money in a different direction. That is if we do tip. People have already discussed the ins and outs of tipping versus fixed service charges and so forth elsewhere on eG. For what it's worth, my preference is for cooks, servers, bussers, etc, to all be paid fairly through wages and for tipping to be forgotten of. To me it's just a strange custom, and it seems to penalise the kitchen, in effect, because it so favours the servers.

Good point.

Yeah, but she doesn't count because she's your mum!

I see you are in Wash DC where things might be a bit different. One thing in Toronto is that restaurants are chalk full of wannabe actors, film directors, script-writers, and so forth, who just work as waiters 'to pay the bills'. No one will admit to being a professional waiter, nor often aspire to really being professional as a waiter, I feel. And of course, to me, people with delusions of silverscreen glory tend to have an inflated sense of self-importance to match. I wouldn't attribute restaurant hierarchies to the influence of an English caste system. (And jeez, things are more egalitarian here than down south. ) I'd rather blame Hollywood! The analogy of a restaurant caste system was someone else's idea, and so shows that others agree. You say you never encountered a 'superior attitute toward the kitchen'? I'll just say that you're less likely to sense people getting the short end of the stick when you've got the big part. Again, waiters wouldn't be upset that the kitchen makes less, would they? We're not just arguing about the wage imbalance here, but if it comes down to the issue of who deserves more $$ then, jeez, more than anything else you'd have to say, in Canada or the States, that the great measure of affluence, status and 'success' is wealth, despite what people might profess. Yes, restaurants get away with underpaying the kitchen. But isn't that wrong? Food is one of the essentials of life and the kitchen is where it's made. If I'm to be stranded on a desert isle I'd take a cook with me rather than a waiter. Well, what I've been saying is that it would be good if everyone gave the kitchen a big tip-tip-tippoo. As for 'yips' or 'yippoos', if someone could translate what this means...

I agree $80 per month for you is negligible. However, you don't have to be so dutiful about it all. The kitchen isn't the army! I'll bet that a waiter would be PO'd with $80 for a night in many places. Here in Toronto, from what I understand, people usually tip around 15% even if the service is poor. Waiters always talk about good and bad tippers, etc, and they hate the odd ones who pay less. At the same time, I never hear them complain about the injustices of cooks' wages. To use an in vogue line from Canadian politics, there's a 'culture of entitlement' at work - and the attitude is that if you work in the kitchen you are dim and should naturally be pulling in less. Like someone wrote above, in North American restaurants it is like there is a caste system at work.

I've never been to Brampton but I imagine that's where you'll find the best places. Same as with Chinese or lots of other 'ethnic'* foods where there is a large associated population in the suburbs. I imagine the greater affluence there will support better restaurants. Can anyone confirm? I don't know where Bombay Bhel is. I've gone grocery shopping and shalwar kameez shopping (ahem, the kameez for a female, not me) along Gerrard in the East End, but aside from having a paan I haven't eaten there in over a decade. My impressions are that the food is fairly straight-ahead. (*'ethnic' - for lack of a better word - I don't normally like this word)

People have been discussing wine consumption. I am assuming you're wondering whether curry is safe to eat - not drink - during pregnancy? My ever-wary mum brought this up too. My wife is 'expecting' and I, the family cook, often make curries. My mum cautioned against it, most likely recalling the general advice that was in vogue back in 1971 in Canada when I was born. I'm no scientist, but I guess my reply would be - well, with well over 1 billion people living in South Asia, curry can't be too much of a danger...

This thread was just transferred over here from the 'Toronto' forum, where it's been going on a few days (see 'Winterlicious'). We've lost the context a bit, then, but it'll also be interesting so see what the rest of you all say about things in Texas and wherever else... Good heavens. If you start getting into this then you'd probably feel your meal's changed into an ordeal. However, if you are so conscientious (which is good) then I suppose you'd have to consider what impressed you the most. For eg, if the service was cr*p and the food great, then why not devote an entire tip to the kitchen? And a side note. I wrote this: To clarify - the dishwashers I had in mind were not thick. They had trouble communicating because they were all Tamil (it being Toronto) and had poor levels of English.

No worries. I knew what you meant. You could go to the kitchen, place down a bill on the nearest flat surface and just say, 'This is for the food. Thanks for a great meal.' But yes, I imagined it would take a fairly outgoing person. I don't know about 'contrived', though. Mostly, I relished the idea of the scene and imagined certain servers where I worked halting in their tracks, gazing with astonishment. Probably the easiest way - but cross your fingers it makes it all the way to the kitchen!

I agree. And I often feel the service is an unwelcome distraction from the food, which is why I'd go to a restaurant in the first place.Really, if some restaurants instituted a 'service optional' policy I'd be a very happy camper. Like with smoking or non-smoking sections (remember those days?) - you could sit in the 'service' or 'self-serve' areas. In the former you'd have a waiter and pay 15% on top of the bill - service charge. In the latter, you'd get your own menu, you'd order, and then go to the kitchen to pick up your food when it's ready (and tip the kitchen if you really enjoy it). I'd like that. It'd also be great to see the kitchen, you might learn more from the meal, and the focus would be much more on the food than on service and salesmanship for the purpose of justifying tips. Some people wouldn't like it, but they can sit on the other side. Another thought - If we take WolfChef as an example, I wonder how many good kitchen crew the restaurant world of Toronto loses because of differences in pay, appreciation and status between the kitchen and servers? (I mention Toronto specifically because the situation is not the same in, for eg, Tokyo.)

Thanks for digging this up, Vinfidel. The whole place sounds ideal. But someone else will have to fill you in. I don't know.

Bravo! And I hope, LibrarianChef, that on the occassions you receive bad service that you do the responsible thing and just leave a nickel. But why can't a busser simply be paid a fair wage? Why do they need to be included in the tipping game? Silly, because have you ever heard a diner remark, "Yes, it was a wonderful meal, and I particularly appreciated the way our soiled cutlery and others' vacated tables were cleared with promptitude and professionalism!" ... A common justification for tipping the standard 15%, even after mediocre service, is that, 'Well, they don't make very much.' 'They' being the waiters... Where I worked in Toronto the waiters got $6.50 to $8.00 an hour - I'm not sure, but probably the former. The best-paid cook/chef got $13. However, with tips waiters tended to go home with a combined $200 per night (probably via chauffered limo). The cooks might emerge with $70 to $90. And the cooks worked a lot harder. No wonder the FOH would look down on the kitchen! Talk about the short end of the stick - they probably thought we were idiots. So, next time you find yourself in a restaurant, and feelings of decorum move you to leave your 15%, then please direct some of it to the kitchen and see what happens. If your motive is guilt or charity, then don't reward bad service. I don't know - why not try contacting UNICEF, Save the Children or the Red Cross?

My apologies, dear comrade. Perhaps I have misjudged you. Although, I still consider bartenders as FOH. ¡¡Olé!! The 'jerkoff' being the customer, I presume. But what happens is customers dump on waiters, who in turn try and dump on cooks, who in turn yell at the poor dishwashers, who then break plates.Ironically, I think the nasty customers have a reputation for being bigger tippers than the pleasant ones. I think it comes down to the status thing, as above. Why's that? Hunger pangs?

Very recently I finished a couple-month stint in a pretty well-known Toronto place which is participating in Winterlicious. Hope that qualifies me, Endy. As said on the W'licious thread, the kitchen gets no tips. No customer ever tipped us while I was there either. Tips are shared amongst the waiters, bartenders, bussers, runners and FOH manager. Together they all pitch in and buy a case of Heineken for the cooks once a year at Christmas. Ho-ho-ho! (I got 2.) Oh, and the bartender would sneak free beers to the back in exchange for food. In the back, I remember once getting special instructions on how to prepare dishes for a table of five whose bill - including some very pricey wines - ended up coming to around $3,000. Imagine the tip on that, but nowt for the cooks. How to tip the kitchen? I would ask the waiter what to do, but I also say: (1) You could hand money to a waiter, bartender or manager with instructions, and then hope it makes its way back. (2) Sending back a round of drinks would make you a kitchen hero, but cooks shouldn't really be drinking while they work. Where I was the 'official' rule was not until after 10pm (yeah right), and then only 2 beers or glasses of house wine which were charged for at cost. Much of the money you'd spend on the round of drinks would also evaporate into the restaurant's coffers again and into tax. (And then if you're like most people you'd probably feel obligated to tip on this!) (3) If you felt very gregarious, you could ask to speak to the kitchen staff, poke your head in, say thanks and present your tip directly. I'm sure you'd make their week! A word of appreciation for dishwashers, too. They tend to make even less than chefs/cooks, they work pretty hard, but get abused by everyone, including the cooks. No tips for them! At my place all they could do is slam things around in complaint as they simply wouldn't have the language skills to resolve things verbally and, like the cooks, would normally be too busy anyway.

creativeingredients - I found the leaves, ghalangal, etc, in the 1st big store I went into. It's on the east side, just north of Dundas. Ruby - Thanks. Didn't look in Tai Kong, though I was of course on Spadina. So are there any real 'Thai' shops?

My wife has commanded me to make more Thai food, and so I've been outfitting our kitchen. We live downtown-ish and so I've made the rounds on Spadina, where I've found fish sauce, kaffir lime leaves, lemon grass, ghalangal - lots of the basics. In fact you could probably find almost everything you'd need there. But I was wondering if anyone knew of any specifically Thai or Thai-run grocers? I'm sure they'd be good to visit and might have a greater range. Khob khun krab.

GordieCooks writes: Hmm, you say you worked in the industry, but I'm guessing as a 'front of the house' sort. I have, but in the back - with the honest blokes . Otherwise, I'm guessing you wouldn't 'sympathize' so much. I don't - not with the waiters.Someone mentioned that it is customary in some restos to pool tips and then share with the kitchen lowlifes. But from what I know, if this happens at all (and it didn't where I worked), the lowly cooks receive no more than a token 5% of the night's haul. Result: waiters make 2x to 3x as much $$ per night (or more) when compared to the cooks, at least in my experience. And don't forget that the cooks are the important ones, the noble souls who toil with love and care and actually craft the fine dishes you consume. The waiters are mere delivery-people, who condescend to the kitchen, get the glory, and suck up the cash. They're just in it for the money. So if you dine out during Winterlicious, and you really enjoy the food, please tip the kitchen. They'll probably be flummoxed, and then invest it in beer.

Oh don't be silly, my son. That is what OSAP is for! And of course it makes a fine break from beans 'n toast, Kraft dinner, Cora's Pizza, Subway, and chicken wings with beer - all student food 'classics' around here. Always interesting to see how food from 'non-drinking' cultures is cooked, I think. It's true that often there's less to add to the dining experience through your choice of beverage, which just ends up being water, a fruit juice, tea, or a lightly flavoured beer, or whatever. All the flavour already tends to be in the food - on purpose.

Hmm, you're right. Let's say the orange costs $1.00. I guess what I should do, then, is pay the poor fruit-seller $2.00. Then he would smile a lot, call me sir, and treat me better than the cheap customers who just pay a buck. I'd like that!

That's interesting but I would say that, for me, the decision to order wine really depends on what I'm eating. For example, you can pair some wines with curries if you really want, but I wouldn't normally get wine cravings with that sort of food. Beer, sure, but not wine unless I was feeling experimental and probably at home. On the other hand, if you have a steak with frites it'll seem pretty plain without vino. A dish like that is basically designed to go with wine, and vice versa.'Cheapskates' - I don't think GordonCooks was saying that people who don't order wine are cheapos. I think the implication was that I am, or that others like me who complain about tipping are. Or maybe hockey players. I don't know. But call me cheap if you like. On the other hand, I would say that those who are into tipping, even overtipping, must have their own personality quirks: "outgoing, dominating, social people" who enjoy special attention and see themselves as having a higher status than servers (to refer back to Prof Lynn's study mentioned above). It's not the greatest bugaboo, but I don't think tipping culture does much to promote social equality. In my opinion, don't be so open-minded. It is weird! Or at least misguided. I can't think of a culture where people normally quaff CabSauv while munching on sweet porc buns, shrimp dumplings and lotus leaf rice packets. Yuck! Yes, some reds might go with some dim sum dishes, if one really must have red wine. But in general the two aren't really compatible. Myself, I'd stick with tea or beer.

Senegal's a nice place and, actually...[KevV gives a smug grin]... tipping ratios in Toronto and Dakar are quite similar - around 15%. Many places favoured by foreigners will include service charges in the bill, however, because of the French influence. That's better to me. I don't believe the subject is old news either. Differences are interesting. Culture, cuisine and dining all go together. Also, this hasn't been a 'diatribe' about differences between cultures. This has been about Toronto - dining here, and Winterlicious. Someone mentioned France and NonDoctor asked about other countries. As for Rome - I haven't been there so someone else can fill us in.

You sound sceptical... Anyway, in Japan and Korea you don't tip, nor in Oz or NZ. Though I can't remember exactly how things went when I was in restaurants in the UK, I know it isn't really different from the pubs, where everyone knows you don't tip. (Buy a drink for servers if you're really grateful.) In Spain and Portugal you tend to round up, so if your bill is €8.25 then you pay €9. If it's €47 then pay €50. Beyond those ratios, people will wonder what you're trying to prove. ("Do these foreigners think we're poor?") Lots of countries are similar. Westerners and other well-to-do types in Sri Lanka and India can give 5-10%. Leave up to 10% in HK. (Tipping ratios will be higher in fancier restaurants.) I'm mentioning these places because I've lived in most of them, and so know for sure. I can refer to more countries if you like. However, you can also check around, for example a BBC-related list on http://people.howstuffworks.com/framed.htm...abaster/A640018. Actually, the differences between countries can be pretty interesting when you think about it. Here's a quote from howstuffworks.com: "Michael Lynn, an associate professor of market and consumer behavior at Cornell University School of Hotel Administration, researched the variations of tipping in different countries. Comparing the types of services that were tipped in each country with personality tests that had been given to people in those countries, he came to the conclusion that countries with more extroverted and neurotic people gave tips to the greatest number of services and also tipped the largest amounts. (The U.S. was at the top of both of those categories, by the way.) His theory is that "extroverts are outgoing, dominating, social people" and see tipping as an incentive for the waiter to give them extra attention. Neurotics are more prone to guilt and general anxiety, making them tip more because of their perceived difference in status between themselves and the server." Based on the common 15% expected in Canada, I'm sure we're high up on the neurosis list as well. I also think the bit about perceived difference in status is interesting. Why is it that US visitors in Toronto tend to tip more? (A little support for their poor cousins to the north?) I haven't worked as a waiter, but I think I would prefer to receive my 10-15% gratuity automaticallly through bills and wages - as in France (Germany too, I think). I might feel patronised fiddling with coins, cash and customer perceptions of status.

That would be a good approach to take for restaurants, and I'm sure lots of people might participate in Winterlicious with this in mind - to test out a place or two, to see if they like it and might be interested in returning. Another thought - if, during W'licious, restaurants get busy, with the emphasis even more so on high-volume and turnover, then it's no wonder the servers get in a bad mood. They probably resent the busyness and the work. After all, do they really care? For most it's a side-job and they aspire to other things (film?...). I doubt that many regard themselves as professional or 'career' servers. As for tipping ... Everyone knows that little or no tipping is involved when dining in many other countries around the world. And yet servers there can be professional and even proud of their work. Here in Toronto, for me, paying that extra 15% always grates. (Maybe I won't next time.) Also (if I may add one last point to the rant) Toronto servers tend to make way more than kitchen staff - those humble heroes at the back who are the ones that ultimately make the food you eat and do way more work. Has anyone ever tipped the kitchen?

If that's the case, then it may be part of the herding syndrome mentioned above. Niceness could encourage you to enjoy yourself and linger, but that's not what they want. Just eat 'n go. And maybe servers also think: Winterlicious = cheap customers = puny tips.

I'm not sure what the menus were like in past years (I wasn't here in past years), but I tend to agree with Jake. Not overly inspiring. The dishes mostly seem like they're the high-volume/high-speed variety. In other words, get there, eat, and then leave quickly, please. If Winterlicious is as popular as people have made it seem, then I'd worry I'd be herded in and out the front door.