pftaylor

irodguy, Good point. I have learned to completely stay away from OO in my effort to recreate a Patsy's pizza. It's really unnessary when you have extremely high heat.

Maui, Welcome aboard the Patsy's train. There's plenty of room. Brick oven in the backyard eh? If you live in Maui and have a brick oven, that beats me in Tampa with only a grill...Get ready for some new friends upon completion.

NealH, I have a TEC grill. It uses an infra-red technology. It has taken me months to figure out how to balance the ratio of bottom and top heat. The configuration which worked for me was to simply stack unglazed quarry tile on top of the grates. Worked like a champ. The only problem I have encountered is a warping of the hood due to the intense heat. The manufacturer clearly states to not close the hood when the grill is on high and I have chosen to ignore their warning. Pre-heat for 30 minutes and bake for 3. Hence, a warped hood. bakerboy, I appreciate all your comments. If I could post pictures of my pie your mouth would start watering. It looks great and tastes even better. The key for me was figuring out how to master the intense heat of the TEC grill. That was a huge breakthrough. I fumbled as badly as a college freshman trying to unlatch a bra one handed. I am still perplexed about the ultra-light crust of Patsy's. It is unbelievable. I have never tasted a crust as flavorful or as light. That is what has led me to think about their incorporation of a starter of some kind. I had also been down the path of much higher hydration as a possible key but I now know that it is not necessary. Here is what I've learned from all this. Patsy's learned their crust from Lombardi's. Lombardi's learned and was from Naples. In Naples, they do not use oil or sugar in their crust. The crust browns naturally at high temperatures. I have finally connected all the dots on the dough mystery from that aspect. The incorporation of sugar and oil took place when gas ovens started being used and they couldn't get the dough browned at 500 degrees. That's why all the coal oven joints don't use either but all the gas oven places do. Overall I'm convinced there is no magic just good sound process and procedure. Thanks for everyone's comments. Keep 'em comin!

Okay here's what we have so far in reverse engineering a Patsy's Pizza. They have the world's lightest crust (outside of Naples) and may also use the most basic of all dough recipes; Flour, water, yeast, and salt. Can it be? Where's the sugar? Same for the Olive Oil? Where is it? Can you actually create a world class crust without those ingredients? I'm flabbergasted if that's the case. Here are the facts as we know them: 1) They use a High Gluten flour to some extent. Probably 100%. I have seen the 50lb bags at the restaurant. 2) They do not use a high hydration dough as previously thought. An associate has bought 4-5 raw doughs for home use and claims they are relatively dry. Certainly not wet. I trust my associate's ability to tell the difference between a wet and dry dough. I could use help here in predicting the likely hydration range for use in a home recipe. 3) They use a refrigerated retardation/proofing process - probably overnight but again input on what the timeframe range alternatives are would be helpful. Again, visual sighting dough being stored in a refrigerated proofing box. 4) They do not use oil or sugar in the dough recipe. The source on this is their waiter. Could be reliable then again... 5) They MIGHT use a starter. I definitely need feedback here on the assumption that if you can culture their dough that's a pretty good indication that they use a starter. If so, they would be the only classic coal fired oven place to do so. Sounds like a longshot but ya never know. Somebody convince me on this pivotal point. I wanna believe... 6) They use Sassone tomatoes/sauce - Has anyone ever heard of this brand/distributor? 7) They have used a really hot coal fired oven since 1933. The crust is ultra-light, not heavy. If you usually get full eating 3-4 slices of a traditional NYC pie, you would have no problem eating an entire Patsy's pizza and still not feel bloated. Part of it may be that unlike Di Fara's, they have a light hand when it comes to cheese and sauce. In this case, less seems to be more. 9) The crust is not cracker crispy, charred yes. In fact, it is sort of on the soft side for being so well done. I would especially appreciate any and all feedback from anyone who has actually eaten at the original Patsy's in East Harlem. Anyone who can comment on the above list is more than welcome to jump in...Come on guys help us decode this!

See update below.

I have tried a blended flour approach and it just isn't the same high performance dough as what an elite pizzeria uses. Patsy's definitely uses a high gluten flour. I am trying to determine what their dough management procedure is so that I can come even closer to replicating their ultra-light crust. Currently I use a 24 hour rise in the fridge with a 2 hour punch down before forming the skin for baking. Any guesses as to whether Patsy's uses a cold rise or a room temperature rise and for how long? Those answers would go a long way to solving the mystery. Also, if any member has any idea as to what brand of flour (or any other ingredient) they use it would be helpful. From what type of yeast (fresh, dry, starter, etc) to the specific brands of cheese and sauce. Thanks in advance.

I currently use a biga which adds a great flavor to my dough recipe. I let it ferment in the fridge for 24+ hours. I'll try using a slightly higher hydration percentage and post my results. Also, I'll try adding more OO. Stay tuned. If there are any other members out there who have insight into how Patsy's prepares their dough I would be appreciative of their guidance.

My recipe is currently at 62.5% hydration. Any suggestions on how high I should go? Also, any insight into their basic ingredients (type of cheese, sauce, etc).

The reason I'm guessing high gluten is because I've tried everything else and everything else isn't as close as high gluten. I'm using King Arthur Sir Lancelot and have gotten as close as I can get at this point. Additionally, an associate was at the original Patsy's not long ago and noticed some 50lb white bags with markings of "Hi-Gluten" stacked up in the back. I'm not saying they use high gluten exclusively but that's a pretty good indicator of at least some usage. I agree that their dough is somewhat soft but it doesn't taste as if it's been blended like Di Fara's.

I have been attempting to reverse engineer a convincing home version of a fresh mozzarella pizza from Patsy's. I have high gluten flour, a grill which reaches 800 degrees, fresh mozzarella, San Marzano tomatoes and yet I cannot come close to their extraordinarily light crust. I wonder if Patsy's uses some sort of starter, biga, or chef to achieve their incredible taste and lightness. If any member has insight into their preparation techniques I would be appreciative of a helping hand. BTW, I live in Tampa and travel to NYC three or four times a year for business and pizza.