dagordon

What is the difference in marbling, if any, between meat taken from between ribs 12 and 13 and that taken from in between ribs 6 and 7? ← There will be less marbling at ribs 6 and 7. (This is one reason why cuts from the other side, closer to the short loin, are somtimes called "first cut" and carry a premium.) Here, have a look at this document I just found -- for beef "ribbed" for export in between ribs 5 and 6 or 6 and 7, the marbling requirement for Prime is actually lower than normal -- marbling can be only "Moderate" and it can still be Prime. B/c presumably if it's Moderate b/w ribs 5 and 6 or 6 and 7 it will still be Slightly Abundant b/w 12 and 13. Mmmmm, marbling...

They don't raise their own cows. According to the Steingarten article already referenced, they buy most of their beef (or at least did at the time of the article) at the Hunts Point market in the Bronx. I suspect that their buyers are very discriminating, but that a large part of it is just that they're willing to pay what it costs for the highest levels of Prime. And they dry age their stuff properly, and longer than most, which contributes to the cost -- dry aging is expensive. I don't think they supply restaurants... The only place where I've had non-Wagyu beef of Lobel's quality is at Luger's. (The Luger's steak that we got for the tasting, though, was, by unanimous agreement, not as good as the Lobel's.) Interestingly, they used to have a steak house in the early 80s -- Lobel's Steak House, 43rd and 2nd. I learned of it from the eGullet discussion with Evan Lobel (which is pretty interesting in its own right). As Evan says there (and as a one star 1982 NYT review from Mimi Sheraton confirms) the meat itself was very highly reviewed, but the other stuff not so much (Evan mentions that the partners were not ideal.)

Depends on the species of crab, no? (I notice nobody has mentioned what *kind* of crabmeat they're looking for...) Blue crab season is in the summer, right? But as far as I know, Dungeness is available year round, since the species north-south range is so large. ← Chesapeake bay blue crabs are out of season... but Gulf of Mexico blue crabs, for example, are very much available (and if you go to a Maryland crab place this time of year that's what you'll be getting).

Well I'll back you up as far as the risotto's being fantastic and the crab in particular delicious, though I think it's a slight misdescription to say that Phil and I banged it out with you To say the very least, the crab was far better than what Lacroix attempted to serve us that afternoon in a crab and lobster roll, which would have incapacitated us for days had we eaten it...

I just had an absolutely delicious meal at Snackbar. Goat cheese salad w/ baby romaine and slow cooked egg, salmon w/ citrus salad and parsnip puree, pork loin w/ amaranth and cranberries, boneless chicken wings w/ unagi-like glaze, and cheese (Blackstick blue and Nevat goat cheese). Everything was pretty impressive, evidence of serious talent in the kitchen. The salad was flavored with marjoram, which provided a terrific woodsy element. The glaze on the chicken was home-made, btw, and immensely flavorful. Pork itself wasn't terribly porky (but what is these days, aside from a Lobel's or Blue Hill pork chop) but the dish as a whole was completely successful. I sat at the bar. The place was fairly busy (impressive, given conditions outside tonight), but service was perfectly smooth. If you were disappointed w/ Snackbar in the past but haven't been back recently, I'd say try it again.

As far as butter, if you want a real treat, try to get your hands on some Smith Creamery Butter (www.smithcreamery.com), from Louisiana. They'll ship to you directly, though production is so small relative to demand that it took them many months to ship out my butter after I initially expressed interest. But very much worth it.

Fair enough V... though as a matter of current usage (correct or not) most of the terrine recipes I've seen call for substantially longer cooking times (like 40-60 minutes in a bain marie) than the torchon, which is poached for like a minute in the French Laundry recipe. That is, regardless of terminology, we've got to decide how we want to do the non-seared foie, if we want to do non-seared foie at all.

Well, if this is going to be a hassle, then we could always just sear them But if you were going to get whole livers anyway the idea was that we would just do the two lobes of each differently; it wouldn't require getting double... or is this not doable? Also, there are now three prep methods on the table: torchon, terrine, and just seared... with torchon at least you don't have to go out looking for terrine molds

From what I understand, different feeds (corn vs. soy) create different fat consistency. In turn, they are better for different uses; soy for firmer, searing foie and corn for softer, torchon-style foie. Color is different, too. I would try to confirm the feed content, just to add that to the mix. ← Interesting, well we could test this hypothesis by doing each both ways -- unless it's just obvious that say, searing a corn-fed foie would completely ruin it. (But I'd find that hard to believe!) But we should definitely find out feed, and as much else as we can find out about how they were raised.

Oh. Baby. I think I remember you saying that, as far as preparation, you wanted to sear them? It might be interesting to do the lobes in each one differently: sear one, torchon the other?

Yeah, you know, I didn't want to say anything about the fries, or the salad, out of fear of only further upsetting people who weren't there, but since everyone else has been talking about it... Pretty much the best fries ever. And the salad was perfection.

Listen, I love Di Bruno's -- I love the people there, I love much of what they sell (the meat counter and the cheese counter are pretty clearly of exceptionally high quality). There's a lot of knowledge among the staff at both the stores. But these qualifications "Rastelli's meats" or "Rastelli steak from dibruno" are not necessary... Lobel's isn't raising their own cattle; I don't know where they're purchasing their meat from, but it's still "Lobel's steak". It's a valuable piece of information that Di Bruno's is getting their stuff from Rastelli in NJ. But Di Bruno's is selling the stuff, and they're making a profit off it. It reflects on them. It particularly reflects on them when they offer a ribeye as a NY Strip, and when they fail to properly trim it. The disappointment w/ the Di Bruno's steak is the disappointment that you have with someone you know and respect; you know what they are capable of, and it's clear that they're not living up to their potential.

I'd love to do this comparison too... As you said, though, Americans prefer the grain-fed stuff, and one of the lessons of this tasting is that it's a little difficult to get even that at a really high quality level. I haven't the faintest idea where to get a top quality grass-fed steak in the US. But if you know of a source, please share!

I'd be totally shocked if the Wolfe's Neck hadn't been dry aged...

My understanding (this may be wrong!) is that it's difficult if not impossible to get substantial marbling, even what would be required just for USDA Prime, with solely grass-fed beef. And also that, because of the lower fat content of grass-fed beef, it can't be dry aged for very long. So I think that most if not all of the steaks in the tasting were grain-fed. I've never had top-quality grass-fed beef, but my understanding is that it's just a completely different thing from the sort of steaks that were in the tasting and from "steakhouse steak" as we know it.

Sandy, one thing to note is that beef marbling grades are properties of the entire carcass, not of indiviudal steaks. The USDA ascertains marbling grade between the 12th and 13th rib. The Japanese system looks between the 6th and 7th ribs.

Several of them, including the Wolfe's Neck, were purchased in cryovac bags, so they were a bit "wet" out of the bag. (The Wolfe's Neck actually had a bit of olive oil in the bag too.) I think they would have a more familiar dry-aged look if they had been patted down w/ paper towel and left out for a bit. Also, the color of the steaks that had been cryovac'd would have changed if they had been exposed to oxygen for a while, allowing them to "bloom". The raw pictures were taken pretty much right after they were taken out of the bags.

From personal experience -- just as good. When I picked up the steak yesterday at Lobel's I told them that we wanted something really special, aged as long as possible. They said that they normally age their stuff 4-6 weeks, and gave me something aged 6 weeks. You can specify when you place an online order exactly what you want in the comments section.

V, PM me the cost of the steaks other than the Lobel's and Luger's and I'll add them to this post: Cost of Steaks: 8. Luger's: $34/lb, excluding shipping; $42/lb, including shipping (you can't buy an individual steak; they only sell "meat packages") I ordered meat package B, so the cost of our steak (including half of the shipping cost) was $98 http://www.peterluger.com/ourmeats.cfm 9. Lobel's: $43/lb The one we had was $95 http://www.lobels.com

Not at all a silly question. Yes, it was an oddly light color. Dry aging actually makes the meat darker. Why it had this color is anyone's guess.

Just to add to what's been said... I agree with V's ranking of the top steaks: 1. Lobel 2. Wolfe Neck 3. Luger 4. Wells CAB I don't know where to put the Esposito. It needs its own separate category. It tasted like no other beef that I've ever had. That dry-aged, cheesy funk to the EXTREME. But, I think several of us agreed, it wasn't particularly beefy. It was really just that funk. Given V's abilities I have absolutely no doubt that he's absolutely correct that it would function perfectly in certain dishes. Suffice it to say that several of us really couldn't eat very much of it by itself, and it's NOT at all what you think of when you think of steakhouse steak. I'm also genuinely curious as to why the Esposito tasted like that. It can't be the length of aging, which was apparently 21 days; the Lobel's, for example, was aged 6 weeks, and didn't have nearly that much funk! V was, however way too generous to the Wells Dry Aged Choice and the Ochs. These were, well how to put this, bad steaks. The Ochs porterhouse was, by consensus, one of the sorriest looking pieces of meat ever. It was an oddly light color. And there were these unpleasant chunks of gristle throughout the meat. The picture is too flattering, I think the other side of the steak was not as attractive. The Di Bruno's steak (which was a ribeye, despite the fact that it was sold as a strip), the Wells Choice, the Ochs, and the Whole Foods steaks were all varying levels of not good. They were made edible only by the terrific crust that V had achieved. The defects here were a thorough lack of flavor, both beefy flavor and dry aged flavor, a grainy texture to the meat in the case of the Di Bruno's and the Whole Foods steaks and a tough, gristly texture in the case of the Ochs. The Lobel's steak was, well, flawless. It had the perfect balance of beefy and dry-aged flavors and a wonderful texture. The filet, which we had after the comparison tasting, was also a revelation. (Mr. Fenton's reaction was particularly amusing -- he had just finished saying that he didn't particularly care for filet, and when he tasted the Lobel's filet began to make all sorts of funny expressions and sounds.) The Wolfe Neck ribeye was a superb steak -- my tasting notes included "flavors of Serrano ham fat". And the Wells CAB was really quite good. Wells is right here in Philly. There's no excuse for consumers around here not having easy access to this stuff. Oh, and we each had a bite of a Lobel's Kurobuta rib chop before the tasting. It was outstanding. This might be one of the best values at Lobel's, it's less than $20/pound.

We were in Sonoma in November, we too had been to Napa before and wanted to see something else. We were only there for a day but we had a great time, it definitely seemed like more of a "real" place (as opposed to a tourist attraction) than Napa. As far as wineries, check out Arrowood, Ledson, Ch St Jean (I got a bottle of the 2003 Sonoma County Reserve Chard and after having it on new year's wish I had bought a case, it's absolutely stunning.) Eat at the General's Daughter. We were particularly impressed with the Chardonnays we tasted there -- the St Jean, the 2004 Arrowood Alary Vineyards, among others. It seemed like there was a kind of general trend at the places we went to away from a lot of oak and malolactic fermentation. Maybe this is a Sonoma thing recently? I really have no idea what I'm talking about.

OK. Anything else?

Sounds good to me. Pondicherry Peppercorns -- that's new to me. Google tells me nothing. Are those like Tellicherry peppercorns? Maybe they're Tellicherry peppercorns from Pondicherry (Tellicherry is, as far as I know, just a grade of peppercorns -- larger and riper than "Malbar"). Or is this a separate grade entirely?

First, big thanks to Scott and Di Bruno's for advice on the oils. And, of course, thanks to V for hosting, and cooking... Like mrbigjas, I was struck more by the similarities among the oils than by differences. Each oil was pretty distinctive -- it's not at all if many of them tasted the same -- but the range of the differences was more narrow than I would have thought. There's a problem related to this -- what I realized pretty early on in the tasting is that I didn't quite have the vocabulary to describe the flavors that I was experiencing, or the differences among oils. I feel like it would be extremely helpful to read a book on olive oil tasting, or read professional tasting notes, or something... So the following is going to be pretty crude. I'm going to just group the oils by strong features. This is a compilation of my notes and my girlfriend's: Peppery: DiBruno Frutatto (major pepper kick) Vetri (major pepper once shaken, mild pepper finish before shaking) Frantoia (light peppery finish according to my girlfriend, though I didn't really get it) Armando Manni Per Me (light pepper finish) Buttery/Full: Carm (luxurious) Yellingbo Planeta (not really buttery, but mouth-coating and full) Grassy: Beccchina Olio Verde Armando Manni Per Me Armando Manni Per Me Figlio Le Moulins Mahjoub (straw) Vanilla: Marques De Valdueza (also artichoke?) Aguibal Arbequina Other notes: The Frantoia for me was one of the oils that made me wish I had a better tasting vocabulary... it had a unique mid-palate, unlike the others, though I couldn't pin it down. The Aguibals had very peculiar aromas, chemical-y (g/f says "like art supplies"). And she claimed the Manzanilla tasted like it too, though she did like it. The Manzanilla was one of the outliers -- just a really distinctive oil. Now, the food pairings. Ceviche: I chose the Per Me, g/f chose the Valdueza. I don't know whether mine was a good choice, because I stupidly didn't taste the ceviche before adding oil. I didn't really taste it in the dish once added, but this doesn't mean that it wasn't serving a function. G/f did taste the dish before adding oil, and was happy with her choice, which she says cut through the acid of the dish a bit and added balance. Bread: V chose the Olio Verde. That people were clamoring for seconds should indicate that this was a quality choice. Burrata: V put the Valdueza on the salad; I put this on the mozz too, so as not to cause a conflict. G/f chose the Carm. My pour was pretty generous, so I really tasted the oil. We had different philosophies here: the Burrata could be pushed to the lighter or heavier side. The Valdueza made for a lighter dish, the Carm a richer one. We both liked ours. Risotto: I chose the Vetri, g/f the Per Me. We both absolutely loved our choices, each providing some complexity to a simple, but amazingly good, dish. Lentil Stew: I chose the Carm, g/f the Planeta. The flavors of the dish were pretty intense, so the oil didn't have much of a chance to stand out here. But it did round out the dish. Mozz Ice Cream: we both had the Olio Verde. mrbigjas said it best, grassy mozz, grassy oil. A match made in heaven.