Todd36
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Posts posted by Todd36
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But this system has it's own flaw -- what are the categories? We could easily understand if Bruni said that V is one star "within its category." Sure, there would be some finagling around the edges, but most of us could agree on the type of restaurant V is competing with. But what about Blue Smoke? The bbq doesn't compete with almost any bbq I've had, but it's a much better dining experience. This introduces too many additional layers of subjectivity into a process that tries mightly to be objective.
One way of dealing with this (and not sure if Blue Smoke would work), if the place is expensive enough, then no matter what kind of cusine it serves, it falls into the high end catagory. I have no problem comparing Jean Georges to say Kurma Sushi or Mr K's. They're all quite expensive and all claim to be top. Perhaps in general prices is fairer. Compare noodle shops to good pizza for example.
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If Jean Georges turned their Trump Palace/Tower/whatever restaurant into a pizza place, I'd be surprised if it maintained 3-stars. Unless they served killer wings.
This puts us back I think in the "it's gotta be French" to get 4 stars from the NYT. A variation on this theme. I grew up in Connecticut and some time ago, the reviewers for the Hartford Courant were Jane and Michael Stern (sometime later, the Courant had Williams Grimes, and they have not had a real reviewer since the NYT hired him away). The Stern's last review for the Courant was of Shady Glen. Shady Glen is a two outlet ice cream parlor that serves good (but not great ice cream) and famous cheeseburgers and hot dogs. Actually, they serve famous cheese. They have some secret technique that involves cooking the cheese on a sandwich press to make it both gooey and crisp. You can order a side of the cheese, on an english muffin (it's not on the menu). Now that cheese is good. The rest of the burger is fine, but nothing special. Shady Glen is very popular, and slightly overpriced for what it is (we're talking half counter service and it's really a short order diner/dairy bar). It was founded by a local farmer who made ice cream as a sales method for milk. It's been open for 50+ years and is stuck in a time warp. It has looked exactly the same for the last 30 years. The Sterns gave it 4 stars...... they speak highly of it in their books.... they say something like "we know 4 stars sounds nuts, but we like the place and it's a perfect example of its type."
Now, Shady Glen happens to be located in my hometown. I've probably eaten there at least a hundred times. It's pretty good, but 4 stars?????????????????? The Sterns clearly believed in comparing restaurants to their peers, and not across types.
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From my casual observation, I wonder if Bruni missing the difference between a one-star meal and a one-star restaurant.
As for "democratization of the reviewing system," or whatever better phrase was used above, It seems to destroy the system. When dealing with only 5 ratings (0-4 stars) it is almost impossible to meaningfully review $25 and under local places within the same scale as V, Jean Georges & Per Se. I've never been to V, but unless the waiter sneezed on me, a cockroach crawled of the salad, the steak had no pink or the oysters gave me the runs, I fail to see how it can be ranked at one star when then are so many restaurants who, on a perfect night, will not provide a dining experience equal to V on a sub-par evening. A flawed concept at V (perhaps its onion soup -- but I'm just choosing this as an example), is still better then most every restaurant in NY.
Just as the best pizza place shouldn't rate above 2 stars (if that). Let's assume that DiFara's is the best frickin' pizza that God himself could conjure up. Is anyone going to rate a slice of pepperoni at 4-star with Per Se? Of course not. Then how could a bad meal at V be rated 1-star with Murray's Knosh Bar?
I agree with whoever above suggested that Bruni and the star system should be reserved for the top restaurants. Or something like that.
I think what you are trying to say is: no matter how screwed up an expensive place like V is, it's always going to be at least one star because it's so expensive and they start with good ingredents and their staff is at least decent. I don't know if that is true. The Times I think has given no stars to some expensive places in the past--- I don't remember which places, but I am sure someone can find one. The Russian Tea Room perhaps? I think it is possible for a place like V to be no stars. I've had some iffy food at some rather expensive places. I also think that it's possible for almost any food to be at a four star place. Jean-Georges served ptotato salad as part of my lunch last month.... you think that means it was at most a two star experience? It's true no one makes super high end pizza that is good in NYC, perhaps because the market will not pay for it. But if Jean Georges made a high qualtity crust with a time intensive sauce, good cheese and house-made peperonni, are you saying it couldn't be higher than two stars no matter what? Sushi's usually got 5 or so ingredents: fish, rice, vinger, seaweed (cooked with the rice, its a source of MSG :)) and wasabi. It's simple stuff. Can't be more than 2 stars in your opinion?
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This is a good example of skewing your search in trying to prove your point.
If you just do a google search on "kimchi recipe" you'll find your hits will not have MSG. I didn't need to do a google search, having several kimchi cookbooks at home, but I was not surprised to find that searching under "kimchi recipe" in google didn't turn up any recipes in the first page asking for MSG. Actually, in the home, peopel I know don't use MSG, but in commercial preparations, I can see it being used, though I know the brand I buy does not have any.
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--uh, maybe to you kimchi is a flavoring agent, but you clearly don't eat Korean food that much. If "designed to be eaten with something else" is the determining factor, then geez I guess mashed potatoes is a flavoring agent as well.
Unless your kimchi recipe doesn't call for salt and or fermentation, you're going to be making your very own MSG as part of the process. Even plain cabbage has some protein, and by fermenting it and adding table salt, you've just made MSG. I'm not sure how much, but it's there. And classic Korean recipes add additional ingredents to kimchi, which one web site called "flavor enhancers." The classic "flavor enhancer" is fish sauce. We know there is plenty of MSG is fish sauce. You can say what you want about many recipes for kimchi not calling for the addition of powerded MSG, but the kimchi manufacturing process and classic ingredents add MSG.
I don't add mashed potatos to my stir frys or my tofu soup. Koreans do both with kimchi.
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--by the way, kimchi is not a flavoring agent. It's an actual food on its own. As for it containing large amounts of glutamates, I request that you provide proof. I have eaten and made kimchi all my life and most types I can think of do not have the distinct glutamic acid taste I would otherwise immediately recognize.
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Koreantown in Manhattan has a couple of hotels that are very popular with Japanese tour groups---All of the nearby Korean Restaurants have at least some Japanese customers, and several have Japanese language menus (Seoul Garden has only a few items listed in Japanese but has more Japanese customers than any other place I've seen in Manhattan's Chinatown).
In terms of MSG....well, I'm sure some places use it more than others, at least in pure straight form, but if it's Asian food, it's going to have at least some MSG. For example, anything that contains hydrolyzed protein plus sodium most likely has MSG in it. A good example of something that has both hydrolyzed protein and sodium is soy sauce. Doesn't matter if its natural or not, just cooking and/or fementing the soy beans creates hydrolyzed proteon. I once saw a TV show on how MSG was first developed as a food additive: you can make the stuff using a pile of soybeans, table salt, a pot, a cloth and an open fire. No advanced process or technology is required, it can be made in your backyard. If you Google MSG you'll discover that many foods have pretty high levels of the stuff naturally, and anything Asian that is a flavoring agent (soy sauce, natto, kim chi) most likely has significant amounts. So the restaurant can say with a straight face they don't add MSG....they just add an ingredent that happens to contains lots of MSG.
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I like Seoul Garden. On the other hand, when I ate there with a Korean friend and her live in Korea parents, they did not like it all. Also, for whatever it's worth, about 25% of the customers at Seoul Garden are Japanese (mostly female), for reasons unknown.
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They still have Charshu Ramen. I think that is a pretty standard type of Ramen.
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No wait at around 9:00, and there was space available for the next hour or so, until we left.
Their entry on menupages does not reflect their current menu.
One soup was their basic broth, with slow cooked pork and cabbage on top. Forgot what they called it, it's the first special on their current menu. The second soup was their light flavored broth, with extra roast pork added on top. Easy to customize when you speak Japanese, although I think you could do the same in English. To tell you the truth, the two broths were fairly similar in flavor and appearance. The main difference seemed to be that the light one has less fat. My friend preferred the light one. She says she prefers Tokyo style, no doubt because she was born, raised and educated in Tokyo, Waseda class of '93 as she points out. We used to like Little Yokohama, but it is long gone. They had good noodles.
Oh, and their optional hot sauce really is hot.
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Tried Minca last night with a Japanese friend. The radish salad was well, a radish salad. Fine, but not special. The Gyoza were first class, thin, crispy skin and they did not stick together. As to the soups....noodles were very good and so were the toppings, we had both the stewed and BBQ pork. My friend could not believe that the noodles seemed to be dried ones, imported from Japan. They were better than the fresh ones we've had at other places in NYC.
The downside was the soup, both the regular and the lite. They were OK for me, but didn't make my eyes open or anything. My friend thought they were OK, and better than average for NYC, but not first class. Part of the problem for her is that the broth style they use is very thick, Kyushu style. It's not her favorite, and some of her friends don't like it either. She's a Tokyo native, and wants to try the soy sauce flavored both next time. So, overall, it was good, but not earth shattering.
Service was nice and pleasant, place seems professionally run, they serve beer and sake now, and the music was nice. Not an upscale place, but it's not a dive.
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i read about a 20.00 lunch someplace but cant remember where. does anyone know if thats a regular thing or was a restaurant week special?? thanks
$20.04 I think, Monday through Saturday, it's in Nougatine, the less upscale room. Limited choices, but a good buy for the money. Saturday was choice of tomato soup (good, a tad salty) or a simple market salad, followed by either hake (which was very good and an ample portion) or sliced steak with tomatos and potato salad(!!!). Steak had good flavor but was chewy. Choice of two simple dessserts, a min-chocolate cake-flan with half a poached plum and ice cream and another ice cream type dessert (forgot details). Well worth $20.04.
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I had a bad experience at Japonica a few years back and I will not set foot in the place. Everything is in the eye of the beholder, but Yama is to sushi as McDonald's is to hamburgers. My Japanese friends either will not set foot in Yama, or after one try, will not set foot in there again. A place I wouldn't go out of my way for, but with decent sushi and probably better cooked food, is Marumi - 546 La Guardia Pl. (between Bleecker and W. 3rd Sts. - NoHo, Manhattan, New York City ) 212-979-7055. NYU Japanese grad students tend to eat there, it's close to NYU. My current favorite around there is Ushiwakamaru, which is on the north side of Houston near Sullivan I think. Try the 10 pieces of Chef's choice for about $39. It's first class and a bargain for the money.
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Thanks, Todd, for the rundown of your favorites!
Has anyone eaten at Katsuhama, the tonkatsu-ya on 47th?
Not in several years, but it was fine then.
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Agreed. Two stars is not appropriate. But that's for another thread...
Have you ever tried either of Donguri's multicourse options? I haven't but want to. Bruni didn't mention them and that got me wondering whether they are still offered.
I ate there about a year ago, and they were offering the multi-course options at that time. I had dinner at another Japanese place today, and the owner there described Donguri as a good example of Japanese home cooking, not something that should get two stars....
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Don't forget Uminoie:
Uminoie (Peter Meehan) (from the New York Times DIGEST update for Wednesday, 15 September 2004. Scroll down for the appropriate link.)
Soba
There are a number of bona fide Japanese bars in town, mostly around 43rd and Second Avenue, that serve interesting food. The catch is that they tend to be Japanese speaking only, with no English menus and no English speaking customers. Uminoie might be a more accesable kind of place, I haven't been there yet. For an example of a place like I mean, there is one on I think it's 53rd street (it's the street the south side of the Lipstick building is on), between second and third avenues, midway down on the south side of the block, up a short flight of stairs from the street.
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I would suggest Nadaman Hakubai in the Kitano Hotel. Very underpublisized, but excellent nontheless. Very authentic.
I have not eaten there, and I have heard mixed things about it. They may have changed chefs recently, as I have been hearing more positive things recently and I ran into a chef from there last week, and he said he was new. Their price for Kaiseki dinners is about the same as Sugiyama, and since I like Sugiyama.... I also hear very mixed things about Kai, it serves similar food, some people like it and some do not.
I recently got some gossip on Masa, the $300 version. At least some Japanese think they serve too much food, which matches the NYT review, and the place is designed to impress through quantity.
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I'm not sure why you don't like Haru, other than perhaps the atmosphere. I've always found their sushi to be terrific. I did overhear one person say, "I used to love Haru, but then I found out it was owned by the white guys that own Ollie and Carmines."
Haru has been owned for the last several years by Benihana. Check out their web site, www.benihana.com
I don't like Haru because they serve edible sushi at inflated prices. It's also American style sushi, not Japanese. I also don't eat at Benihana......
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Win49 isn't bad, not not worth much of a trip in my opinion. Supposed to be owned by the same people who own Tomoe.
My favorite noodle place used to be Little Yokohama on 46th Street, near 9th ave. I kid not. But the couple that owned it moved to Hawaii.
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You've probably missed the two best things they have....the pancake and the sushi (for the money). I've actually never had their Tempura. I have no yet tried Minca, the rumor is that it is good, but its a Ramen place I think and not directly comprable to Go in menu; I don't order noodles at Go.
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And three more comments. I recently had dinner at Tomoe, sashimi selection. It was fine, but not noticably good. The yellow-tail scallion roll was great. I can't figure this places reputation and very high rating in Zagat's. I don't think it's that great and neither do my Japanese friends. If the rest of the food was like that roll.......
And if I want to spend real money, I head to Sugiyama.
And on the upper west side, is a vast Japanese wasteland. Nothing!!!
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As threatened, here are some more suggestions for Japanese Restaurants. Caveots are: people's tastes vary, I usually eat with Japanese friends and you may not like what I like.
1. "Go" This is on St. Marks, between second and third avenues. Go is not a pretty place. It is basically a cheap bar-type place (although it doesn't serve hard stuff). The sushi is decent, and quite cheap. As in slightly more expensive than a take out deli. Go makes the best Japanese style cabbage pancake in Manhattan, and some of the cooked food can be quite good. As long as you remember that this is basically a bar with good food for little money, and its open late, you get the idea. (Note, this is not the same as "GO Sushi", the chain). Rumored to be owned by former Japanese pro baseball player. After you have the sushi deluxe for around $10, you'll wonder how they can serve decent sushi (better than most places in town) for so little. Roughly across the street from Go is a bar type place, I forgot the name, their sign is all in japanese, blue and includes a figure smoking a pipe. It's new, and has 1930's beer ads as posters. The food here is interesting and can be good. It is however, very crowded and features very, very slow service and every time I have eaten there, they have lost part of our order. It's kind of strange. It's a trendy bar type place popular with young people that you would never expect to have good food (if you ever get it). I avoid every other Japanese restrauant on this block (there are several).
2. "Lan" This is at 56 third ave, around 10th street. The point here is shabu shabu, which may be best in Manhattan. The rest of the food isn't bad. Rumored to be owned by meat wholesaler.
3. "Esashi" This is at 32 Avenue A, around 3rd street. My favorite inexpensive sushi place, at around $15 for sushi deluxe. I eat here all the time. Good value for the money and good sake selection.
4. "Ushiwaka Maru" This is at 136 West Houston. At this point, we enter a different league. They have very good sushi. In fact, its about as good as I've had in Manhattan. The people who work here are nice. However, they don't really know how to attact customers. I ate here this Tuesday and tried the $38 option this time, which is ten pieces of sushi of owner's choice. Very, very good. He has unusual stuff. As in one of the things included was shako, which is mantis shrimp. He also had, not part of this special, some sort of live flat fish he had just prepared (he pointed out a second fish swimming in the tank in front). The $35 special sushi is quite good, its a high grade sushi deluxe. What I like about this place is that you get for $38 what would be at least $50 ala carte at most high end places. The chef owner knows what he is doing. I prefer this place to Sushi Seki, which is another high end sushi place I eat at.
Other places I frequent are "Ajisai", as mentioned before, for good cooked food, a great dinner box special and not bad sushi and "Tsuki", as mentioned before, for good sushi. I used to go to "Y's Place", which is just off of third avenue, on I think 74th street. It's owned by a Japanese sushi fish wholesale, but it they've raised the prices to close to Ushiwaka Maru, which is better. There is also "Sushi Seki", on first avenue and 62nd, for good high end sushi.
Places I don't like (to give you a sense of where I am coming from):
Yama
Haru
Nobu
Zutto
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Both Ajisai and Tsuki were reviewed by Asimov in his $25 and under. Both do decent business, but neither is overwhelmed. If I have time later tonight, I'll try to put a posting together of other Japanese places. My usual disclaimer about Japanese food is that 90% of the time, I eat it with someone Japanese and therefore we order in Japanese. I don't always eat with the same person though.
Donguri is probably an above average place in Japan...but but but...its a local place...giving it two stars is a bit much. My comment about sashmi is that Bruni (and the editor) don't know that much about Japanese food, which makes the review highly questionable.
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I was very upset to see Bruni's review. I love Donguri, and am sad that it is no longer a secret -- or at least off the press radar. It's modest, and many of the dishes are not unusual, though I wouldn't call it typical, as Todd36 did.
Again I'm upset to see a review, but enjoyed Bruni's take.
Donguri is well known amoung the Japanese ex-pat community. Just not by non-Japanese speaking reviewers. I showed the review to the Japanese friend who took me there, and she scratched her head. It's not two stars in her opinion and she thinks it is an example of a typical Japanese place. If you like Donguri, she suggests you go to Ajisai, at 1st Ave and 76th, and order the dinner box, It's around $20 and changes every month. Ajisai is usually not very crowded as compared to Donhuri and it doesn't carry the same class of wine or sake. But its cooked food is pretty good, she likes that box as much as anything at Donguri. Ajisai also has not bad sushi and good noodles by the way. Tsuki, at 1st Ave. around 75th or so, has better sushi and good sake (ask the owner's wife for help) but not great cooked food.
There is one clue in Bruni's review that indicates a misunderstanding about Japanese food. It's the sushi/sashimi reference. Donguri doesn't have a sushi chef and that kind of restaruant in Japan would not have one either. So his comment about no sushi available each time he was there is off base, you wouldn't expect them to serve sushi. But you would expect that kind of restaruant in Japan to serve sashimi, in a limited selection based on what the market has and served a bit differently than what you would find in a sushi place (the way Donguri serves it requires less knife skills I think). So Bruni's discovery that Donguri doesn't have sushi and has a limited selection of sashimi is a discovery equal to the discovery that Bouley serves bread before dinner.
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I've been there. It's pretty good. And it has a good reputation in the Japanese ex-pat community. This leads to a question that loops back to the star rating question. This is a good place. But at two stars, its one star away from say Sugiyama, which is in a different league, in price, style of food and quality. Maybe that one star difference is enough. I'm not sure. Donguri is basically a very sucessful and high quality local place--which is most quickly reflected in the review's comments about the service. Not bad, but typical. It's going to be tough to get a table now---it has always been tough becuase of its small size and a large number of regular customers. I'm curious to see what the Megu review by the Times will be----it had better bet at least three stars or else it's in big trouble.
Bye-bye Blue Laws
in New York: Dining
Posted
In Connecticut, where wine/beer/liquor sales are time restricted (as in 8PM closing), the law is a result of 1960's armed robberies and murders at stores late at night (it's a cash business, or at least it used to be). According to an article in the Hartford Courant a few years back, store owners liked the short hours because they permitted easy owner-operated stores and/or one shift of employees. I think the same reason is behind the traditional short hours of many stores in Europe. Mom and pop type stores really like these laws.