MarketStEl

Rereading my initial post after posting a link to it on another board where a side discussion of Chester is taking place, and I see that I need to make a correction: The family that runs the restaurant is named Davis, not Wade. Next time I should remember to jot down notes in my pocket notebook.

Way back when the World Wide Web was still way cool and not yet ubiquitous, I stumbled across a Web page that purported to translate any Web page into Canadian. "Links" became "donut trails." (And, of course, the translator added "eh" to the end of every sentence.) So: --Does the LCBO also run the beer stores? (It sure looks like it does.) --Do Ontarians complain about the prices they pay for beer, wine and spirits? (I suspect they don't. Most Canadian provinces are larger than most US states, and except for the national capital, there are no major Canadian metropolitan areas that straddle a provincial border. But do people in Windsor and Fort Erie travel to the US to buy booze, or are Ontario prices competitive?) --What was Ontario's rationale for setting up a provincial monopoly on the sale of alcohol? I realize this is a somewhat rhetorical question, since in both Ontario's and Pennsylvania's case, the name of the state agency that runs the liquor stores contains within its name its main reason for being, namely to keep alcohol from being too freely available. --Were LCBO stores once as unfriendly and depressing as Pennsylvania "State Stores" were?

I believe the purpose of this thread was to talk about our fast food likes, not criticize people's choices. I think it's pretty safe to assume that if you're going to use "authentic" as your benchmark, none of the posts in this thread would apply. I like it because it tasted good. McDonald's french fries certainly aren't authentic Belgian frites, but plenty of folks go insane for them. And McDonald's just started promoting it's cheesesteaks in Ontario this month. Authentic or not, if they taste good, I'll probably eat a few of them as well! *gasp* ← Okay, I'll accept the penalty call. And I've scarfed down enough McDonald's fries over the course of my lifetime to know that they are damned good. I just find it a little -- amusing? -- strange? -- when Mickey D's attempts to go far afield from what it knows how to do best (add the McRib to the examples already given). IMO the results aren't as satisfying as a Quarter Pounder with Cheese, and sometimes--as with a Philadelphian who has access to the genuine article, a masterpiece of fast food in its own right--it invites unfortunate comparison. Your mileage may vary, of course. P.S. There are some Philadelphians who assert that if an establishment resorts to calling its sandwiches "Philly (or Philadelphia) cheesesteaks," they probably aren't. I don't think McDonald's did this, though.

Bumping this up to remind everyone that in spite of "Best of Philly Day," we have NOT rescheduled this event. Hate to make folks choose between pizza and fabulous dining bargains, but hey, them's breaks sometimes. If you haven't PMed me yet and still plan on attending, drop me a line.

Let's see, C$1 = US$0.88... That's about US$8.68/lb! Can I ask you to drop some off in Philly on your next trip to Florida? While we're on the subject, checked out the cheese thread yet?

If I were your wife, I would probably also suggest that you lie down until the urge passes. I can't help but think that McDonald's pizza was probably as authentic as McDonald's cheesesteak. Which, BTW, they had the chutzpah to sell in their Philadelphia-area outlets.

Well, the Shore as a whole is something of a world apart from the rest of the state, but as I noted above, there are Shore points that tend to attract more New Yorkers during the summer than Philadelphians, and other Shore points where the opposite is true. I don't think the term "shoobie" is used that often up on your end of the Shore--correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's a Philly daytripper phenomenon. (The term comes from the working-class Philadelphians who would take the trains of the Pennsylvania-Reading Seashore Lines down for the day and pack their lunches in shoe boxes.) So even at the Shore, there's a "north/south" split. As for the Québecois trekking all the way down to Wildwood...well, I don't think the fries have anything to do with that, for obviously they could get "Jersey poutine" anywhere along the shore. Oh, BTW, and I realize you wouldn't know this, but if I were from Kansas City, Kansas, I would have said so. (Within metropolitan KC, when someone uses the city name without a state appended to it, they're referring to the older and larger of the two, which is the one in Missouri.) Indeed, Kansas Citians don't know from pork roll either, but I can assure you that there are also foodstuffs indigenous to the Kansas City area that are unknown to coastal denizens, such as the Valomilk candy bar. Speaking of pork roll, why do Jerseyites often refer to it as "Taylor ham"? I know that the Taylor Packing Company in Trenton is one of the oldest and largest producers of pork roll, but it's really not ham.

If I'm not mistaken, that McDonald's in La Jolla is the one I was thinking about in the post above yours.

(Edited to add: I assume that "the bridge" is the one that carries the Garden State Parkway over whatever that river or inlet is just inland of Sandy Hook. Yes, "the shore"--north or south--is different from the rest of Jersey, but even it can be split into north and south.) Actually, the more pertinent determinant may be: What network TV stations does your local cable system carry? Channels 2, 4, 5, 7, 9, 11 and 13, or Channels 3, 6, 10, 12, 17, 29 and 57? Or a mix of both? (Confidential to ghostrider: That First Citizen of Philadelphia, Benjamin Franklin, once remarked that New Jersey was "a keg tapped at both ends." The statement remains true to this day.) Have you noticed any geographic imbalance in the distribution of the term? For instance, did the places you had them in Cape May County call them disco fries? I can assure you, they're definitely not national, regardless what you call them. I doubt anyone in Greater Kansas City would even contemplate the thought of this combo. Fries with barbecue sauce, however, would be just fine there--that is, if you would rather have that than soft white bread as your surplus sauce collection vehicle.

This might break me out of my usual habit of purchasing Black Heritage series commemoratives... Edited to add: Though I am not unfamiliar with those other food stamps, either.

I thought that there was a McDonald's somewhere in Southern California that retains the chain's original architecture. I don't think it was the original McDonald's, which IIRC was somewhere around San Diego. I don't think there's been any moves to make it a National Historic Landmark if it still exists. However, about three years ago, McDonald's built a brand-spanking-new restaurant on South Broad Street at Carpenter here in Philadelphia whose architecture mimics the original design, complete with golden arches. As the restaurant has two drive-through windows and ample indoor seating, it is far from an exact replica, however.

Perhaps the cut of meat you got was flank steak (London broil) after all? Although whenever I've bought London broil, it's tended to be pretty thick. And what flavor of Maggi boullion is it that you use? On this side of the border, they come in beef, chicken and vegetable. I've generally stopped using boullion because my partner has high blood pressure, but sometimes I still use it in some dishes. Interesting little dance you two have going here. CaliPoutine--you live in Ontario; how did you come to choose your eGullet handle?

You needed the GPS in Holly's UAV. (I tried to get it to check my e-mail, but it wasn't having any of that Yahoo! s##t.) It is also probably the only person, place or thing left in town (the ancient signs pointing to the on-ramps aside) that still calls I-95 the "Delaware Expressway."

"Route 4"? Where's that run? I-195 roughly bisects the state, though its oceanward end is also far enough north of LBI to not serve as a reliable guide here. Seaside Heights? Of course--you're a New Yorker. Down here, we call that "Wildwood." I have yet to eat fries with gravy on them. And Katie and I are both waiting for the definitive creation myth. Something as distinctive as disco fries has to have one! Doesn't it?

After tonight, I don't envy TV series personalities their lives. I hope that Chris had several good stiff drinks after today's session. I know I did, and he did all the heavy lifting. I think that someone once described war as long stretches of boredom interrupted by bursts of sheer terror. That may be a little over the top for describing a TV location shoot, but it's in the neighborhood: Hours of standing around followed by minutes of intensity. And repetition. I think the crew spent about an hour on takes and retakes of what will ultimately become about five minutes of footage and narrative. Having been through all the shots, it will be interesting to see which ones end up in the finished product and which end up on the cutting room floor. But the forced idleness came with its own rewards: one-and-a-half of the best cheesesteaks I've ever eaten, plus a chance to see what happens when real folks find themselves in the presence of TV cameras. One patron preened for the camera, breaking out into a huge smile when one of the camera crew shot her eating through the window. Another figured out a way to turn a simple sandwich order into six different visits to the order counter in order to maximize chances of appearing on camera. Others simply stayed a while to see the show before the show. Oh, yes, the steaks? First rate. SLiced (not chopped) steak on very good rolls, suffused with Whiz.

You are absolutely right when you note that it is possible to purchase locally produced crap. Despite the arguments, the relationship between location and flavor is not uniform or linear. But on the whole, locally produced unprocessed or minimally processed foods, like produce, are at minimum fresher and often better tasting (think Jersey vs. Florida tomatoes, John). Of course, the conundrum for the movement is precisely what you point out with your closing remark about Whole Foods. I also have no problem with WFM marketing morality as much as or more than they sell groceries--as John Mackey himself, whose own politics are decidedly libertarian (rather unusual for someone who embraces the food values he does), would note, in a free marketplace, anyone can choose to follow or ignore certain values when buying merchandise. But one of the underlying premises behind the whole local/organic/slow food movement -- sometimes unspoken but there nonetheless -- is that "small is beautiful," to borrow from that famous treatise on "economics as if people mattered." As some of the comments on the thread about Wal-Mart selling organic products--and the chapter on "Big Organic" in Pollan's book--should make clear, for many, "large-scale organic production" is a contradiction in terms. And yet a company like WFM cannot help but stimulate such a thing if it is to be truly national in scope and reach. Actually, John, if you believe that any of those goals are worthwhile, you should give two cheers for Whole Foods for trying as much as it can to walk the walk and not just talk the talk. That Mackey responded to Pollan's criticism by instructing his store managers to purchase more items "at the back door" to me signals that even if a lot of what WFM does is (as Pollan put it) "supermarket pastoral," he does try to put his ideals into action. You may not agree that those ideals are worth the effort, but I don't think you can call the man who espouses them a hypocrite. And yet I realize that by your earlier statement about taste, you hold other values in higher esteem. But wouldn't you agree that oftentimes large-scale industrial production removes the flavor and character from many foodstuffs?

wawiris and tommy: What part of the shore? North or south of Long Beach Island? LBI is the rough division point between the "New York" Jersey Shore (that part of the Shore that you can reach by train from Newark Penn Station) and the "Philadelphia" Jersey Shore (those Shore points that you can get to via either the NJT Atlantic City Line or buses from 10th and Filbert). I may have to test my theory by hitting a diner in or near Ocean City and asking if they serve disco fries.

Ooops. Yep, mesclun. Perhaps I should just go back to my masculine salad. ← Actually, I'm looking forward to eating at a new gay bar/restaurant one block west of where I live soon. There I can relive my drug-tripping college years by ordering "mescaline salad."

Some questions and comments for you: --Were Green Valley Dairy or Hendricks Farms at this event? These are two of the best cheesemakers in Southeastern Pennsylvania. I'm a big fan of Green Valley's Pennsylvania Noble, which is the best Cheddar-style cheese I've ever eaten. I may pop for a quarter pound when I head up to the Reading Terminal Market later today so I can share some with you all (I'd go for a whole pound ordinarily, but I can't justify the $20 right now). --Do any of the better large-scale producers, like Tillamook or Cabot, enter this event? --"...the 'old days,' when we could get raw milk cheeses in the States...": You mean imported raw milk cheeses, right? Several states still allow the production and sale of raw milk and/or raw milk products. I'm lucky enough to live in one of them. Both of the cheesemakers I mentioned above make raw milk cheeses, and that raw milk Colby I raved about upthread is also from a Pennsylvania dairy. Like Pennsylvania wine, Pennsylvania cheese has come a long way in a short time. I'm doing what I can here. I have to agree with whoever it is that called cheese "milk's leap toward immortality." The day before yesterday, my nurse suggested modifying my diet as a way to get my LDL cholesterol down. I may end up sabotaging the plan--I just can't give up my cheese! (Yeah, yeah, I know--just cut down on how much I eat...)

It's been my impression so far that most people on eG are not of the type who look down their noses at well-prepared, tasty humble fare simply because it is humble while extolling mediocre food at a fancy restaurant simply because you have to take out a second mortgage to eat there.

For a slightly different view, I would recommend that everyone pick up a copy of Tim Harford's new book The Undercover Economist (subtitle: Exposing Why the Rich are Rich, the Poor are Poor--and Why You Can Never Buy A Decent Used Car!) The book is not primarily about food, but food figures into his explanations of why not buying locally might be the best thing we can do for poorer countries. Chapters Two ("What Supermarkets Don't Want You to Know") and Nine ("Beer, Fries and Globalization") deal directly with the economics of food production in the course of making larger points, but for some of the purposes of this argument, Chapter Eight ("Why Poor Countries Are Poor") and Ten ("How China Got Rich") are also worth reading.

What time did you all make it to DiBruno's? I got back into town from my professional development class at just before 5, but figured you'd have wrapped everything up, even though you were running late. So I went straight to a Phillyblog happy hour at El Caballito on East Passyunk Avenue. This is a relatively new Mexican eatery that you would miss if you're not careful, as there is no sign of any kind identifying it. The food I had there was pretty good overall: the empanadas de pollo were ample and filling, with the smoky-sweet flavor of chipotle dominant inside the fairly crispy yet flaky crust. Their salsa was as tasty as the tortilla chips they served with it were stale. (The chips that came with another participant's enchilada were much, much better; they looked and tasted like they were made fresh, in contrast to the chips with the salsa, which tasted like the bag they came in had been left open too long.) Great mojitos and good margaritas (once the staff figured out how many of us there were and what we were doing, a free margarita pitcher materialized at our table). I'd go back, if only to see what the entrees were like. Not terribly expensive, either. Edited to add: Hope to see you all at the Reading Terminal Market tomorrow.

Welcome to eGullet, berkshirechef! I have no doubt that's true in a charming little college town full of well-educated people like Williamstown. I suspect that this is not the case in places like Framingham, Saugus or Dedham.

I think I need to clarify a mistaken impression some folks carried away from my recounting of my mother's take on how Kansas came to be Kansas. Actually, it's more like what Big Country said about his family. They weren't quitters, they were survivors. To invoke Mom's metaphor, the quitter would be the person who, when the wagon broke down en route, decided to turn back for the relative comforts of Independence or the Town of Kansas. The survivor is the one who, when presented with the same calamity, decides, "Well, here we are, so we may as well try to make a living." And we mustn't forget the emigres from Russia and Eastern Europe, and the freed slaves, both of whom came later, and for both of whom Kansas was the Promised Land. Those freed slaves had to overcome all sorts of obstacles--not least among them being that the land they were told was promised them wasn't--to make a new life in Kansas. Ad astra per aspera. Few state mottoes fit their states so well.

And what was in that Turkish coffee? Hmmmmmm? Question: Are the Korean noodles less expensive in the US than they are in Japan? Easier to find here than there? From what I've read, I understand that many Japanese look down their noses at Koreans, but as the two countries are far closer to each other than either is to the US, I would think it wouldn't be much of a problem to find Korean products in Japan.