Sourdough Starter - Hows, Whys, Whats

[glennbech]

I've aslo heard someone applying a thin layer of starter in a bowl, and let it dry out for a couple of days. You then scrape it all of, and get some kind of "powder" that you would freeze/refrigerate or keep in an airtight container....

Never tried this, maybe someone else could shed some light on the subject...

[Baggy]

In my view, with bread making you have to follow the approach that you feel is natural. It looks like starters are different depending as much on location, flour, temperature and love as much as any technique. Methods of using starters in the US are a million miles away from the traditional methods used in Europe. French sourdough breads are NOT sour – they taste pretty much like yeast-made bread and they are made with a 60-65% hydration. The reason is that the starter is built up in several stages so that the sour taste produced by some of the bacteria is diluted and the activity of the natural yeasts is promoted.

Sourdoughs in Germany (mainly rye breads) are deliberately sour and use high temperatures to maximise the activity of the yeast and bacteria. Why? Because rye breads don’t capture the gas so well and extra push is required to get a loaf that isn’t leaden.

But in the US, sourdoughs are often used to add flavour to breads and this really develops a character that is special, especially when compared with commonly available breads. Matching breads with other dishes and foods is all part of the cultural heritage.

Unfortunately, even the ‘rules’ for using a starter are not well defined and to get that perfect loaf needs a ton of luck or repetition without variation in any of the steps or the external factors, like temperature. For me, this is not something that I have been able to achieve in a home environment.

It’s my view that the best approach is, having got an active starter and a method that gives a half-way decent result, just try changing one thing at a time. Add slightly more or less starter, or perhaps, increase the hydration. Change the place you store the starter or the temperature of the water added to make up the dough. Like getting a starter going (and I know of at least 20 different recommended approaches), bread making is such a fickle thing that I’m sure everyone will offer experience and advice.

Like keeping a diary, I watch and record my bread making. What mix of ingredients; the method, temperatures and timings; and especially what worked and what failed. Every change has meaning, and I have seen over time that my understanding has grown. Each time I see something new I look for answers and I think you have here a great resource to spread your own experience and tap in to some solid and practical views.

I wondered if anyone has experience of the correct hydration to use with different flours? I’ve been looking at flours in the US which seem to work best at around 68%, whereas the figure for typical UK flours is 65% and 62% for French flours without added ascorbic acid.

Second question is how does hydration change when using a sourdough rather than a direct, yeast based method?

[Baggy]

Just catching up here:

1) I have frozen starter for more than a year and it still comes to life. I guess it is probably more active if it’s used within a month or two, but frankly the starting activity on defrosting isn’t a big issue when it grows and gets back to life within a few days.

2) King Arthur AP works fine for bread without needing any additional gluten. In my experience, other brands like Gold Medal are not so good for bread.

My experience with US flour is limited so maybe there are other, easily available brands that can work?

[hummingbirdkiss]

I usually use Robin Hood that I buy in Canada for bread baking...however I ran out ..and it is next to impossible to find here and when I do it is very expensive and not really fresh....it seems to work perfectly for the standard bread and pizza dough I make ...

is it as good for sourdough ..do folks use it?

the King Arthur was told to me by a friend to be almost as good ....it seems nice to work with ...

I appreciate the advice about adding the starter amts Baggy... I was thinking seriously about this as well...

and actually with the two sponges I just made I am varying them out of curiosity...

I really like a lot of the sour flavor in the bread ..and have looked for it in European sourdoughs in the past...

I want the texture Glen Bech has on his blog!!! those holes I have to have them!!!! that and the sour tang is what defines Pacific Northwest sourdough to me ...

this is going to work I know it ...I think I just have to keep trying ...taking your valued advice and knowing that the perfect loaf is right there waiting to be made!!!

I do have to say ...my three starters are all VERY active and distinctly different in aroma and taste ..all wonderful but the tang is even a different character if that makes any sense?

[UnConundrum]

Just some random comments and maybe responses.

First, as to the use of a starter, generally the ultimate flavor is controlled by temperature. The bacteria like cooler temperatures, and the yeast like warmer temps. Consequently, if you promote a cool fermentation, say 60F, the bacteria will multiply faster than the yeast, developing a stronger sour taste in the final product. Raising the temperature for fermentation to say, 75F, will promote the yeast growth and the fermentation/raising will be completed much faster, with less of the "sour" taste.

As to dealing with a wet dough, unless you're up over 75%, you shouldn't have any problems. First, make sure your working surface is properly floured. Second, between the various steps of producing a dough, make sure you fold it to develop strength. Pat the dough out on a floured surface to de-gas it, and then fold 1/3 over onto itself, and then the final 1/3 over on top of the already folded 2/3.... like folding a letter to put in an envelope. Pat down, turn 90 degrees, and fold again. This should develop sufficient strength in the dough to maintain its shape. I have some pictures showing how to fold HERE.

I always allow my dough to rise on a cloth (you can see this on the next to last picture in the link above). Using an intermediary board, I use the edge of the cloth to turn the dough onto that board, and use that board to turn the dough onto a peel with cornmeal. I have a 7 minute video showing some of this that you can find at the end of my baguette recipe HERE.

[vengroff]

Just another data point:

I created my current starter with water and rye flour several months ago. It took 6 days to really get going and has been going strong ever since on a diet of KA bread flour.

I keep the starter at 100% hydration, feeding once or twice a week at a ratio of 1g starter to 1g water to 1g flour. After feeding I leave it at room temperature overnight to feast. It typically triples or quadruples in volume in that time and gets very light and airy, but still has enough structure not to fall. I then return it to the fridge, where it spends most of the week.

Here's what it looks like about three hours after feeding. The top of the blue tape is where it was right after feeding.

The starter produces very little hooch and is not particularly sour, but has very good leavening properties.

[Baggy]

Nice to see an active and clean starter. How much do you add to one of your typical loaves?

Also it was great to see the bannetons getting in the photo. Do you have problems finding them?

[vengroff]

Nice to see an active and clean starter.  How much do you add to one of your typical loaves?

Thanks. I normally use 150% starter to 100% flour with enough water to get the desired final hydration plus about 2% salt.

Also it was great to see the bannetons getting in the photo.  Do you have problems finding them?

←

Those are from the original Sur la Table store in Pike Place Market in Seattle. They run about $25-30 each, which is why I don't have very many. If you know of a more affordable source I'd love to hear about it. I'd like to get some linen-lined ones as well for instances where I don't want the spiral pattern.

[devlin]

A few notes on some questions raised here re keeping and maintaining starters and also affordable materials for baking.

When you're not using your starter, put it in the fridge. It'll keep fine for quite some time. I've never left mine longer than about three weeks, and Ed Wood says they generally maintain pretty good viability for up to a month without feeding. Even so, I'd think a culture would be fairly handily revived even after a longer stay in the fridge without feeding if it's attended to properly.

My own culture is something between liquid and sponge, and because I bake regularly I feed it every day. Except for this week as I was out of town. So, to reduce some of the acidity that's accumulated over the week and to bring it back up to speed, I'm giving mine a "wash."

I follow Wood's instructions for washing a culture. Using a 24 oz canning jar, I start with a cup of culture, add about 2 cups warmish (about 75-85 degrees) water and stir vigorously. Dump everything but 1 cup and feed with 1 cup flour and 3/4 cup water, stir vigorously (as Wood notes, everything is "stirred vigorously") and proof at roughly 85 degrees for 6 to 12 hours. You may need to repeat several times til it revives to its original, active state.

With my daily feeding, I feed with the same flour and water values noted above and let sit at room temp til it nearly doubles in volume and then refrigerate.

About proofing materials. If I bought my materials at places like Sur la Table or King Arthur's I'd be bankrupt. I make my own couches from a medium weight canvas cut from bolts of the stuff at Wal Mart. It's cheap and it works. Just season with flour.

The Village Bakery

edited to clarify a thing...

Edited March 3, 2007 by devlin (log)

[djyee100]

I've maintained my own sourdough starter for years. Recently someone gave me some of his starter, and I would like to try baking with it for awhile.

Is there a problem keeping multiple sourdough starters? Will they cross-contaminate each other (and possibly one wipe out the other)?

If this is a problem, what do you do to prevent it?

I keep my starters in lidded containers (old plastic yogurt containers) either when they are stored in the fridge or when I have them out on the counter to reinvigorate for baking.

[Lkfarkas]

I am, by far, NO expert on sourdough. But, from what I've been reading, sourdough starters will each take on the wild yeast in your area. So, that being said....a San Fransisco starter and an Indiana starter, both in Florida, will both end up being Florida starters. What happens in the interim, I'm not sure....but from what I've read they become "local" no matter where they came from.

[SusanGiff]

Oh, help! This thread has gotten way beyond me. In the past week, I've attempted three starters, and all three appear to have been/be non-starters. I can't tell if I'm doing something wrong or am simply too impatient.

I started with the Amy's Bread Book method, 1/2 c. rye flour and 1/2 c. spring water, stirred together in an old Chinese-soup container and left with the lid on airtight. After two days, the starter had risen a quarter of an inch above my original mark, at most. Still, I tossed in the specified amounts of flour and water, stirred it up, and basically watched it sink. After a couple more days of total inactivity (the starter, not me so much), I threw it away.

Second try was KA bread flour and spring water. It separated, but nothing more. I currently have a third attempt standing by: 1/2 c. of organic rye flour from a brand new bag, 1/2 c. of tepid spring water, in a 70 degree room, loosely covered. After almost 48 hours, it bubbled a bit, rose a TEENY bit, then fell and separated. I just mixed it up again.

What's happening here? Isn't it supposed to double? Should I toss some and feed it even though it hasn't risen? Or should I just stick to no-knead bread, which works like a dream for me?

Thanks for any efforts to unravel the mystery.

Susan

[glennbech]

It looks like you could feed your starter a bit more in the beginning.

Forget all compex recipies :-) You could probably toss away half, and add water/flour back to your original volume every 12 hours or so. stick with this for 4-5 days, and you should see results :-)

[SusanGiff]

Umm, sorry Glenbech...stick with rye flour?

[glennbech]

Umm, sorry Glenbech...stick with rye flour?

←

Acutally, most of my starters have been with wheat... Don't know why really... I don't think the strategy would change much if you use rye or wheat, but I am not 100% sure of this.

How is your starter coming along?

[SusanGiff]

Much better, thank you! I believe this might actually work. Thanks for the advice.

[Lkfarkas]

I'm pretty new to the sourdough gig myself. I started a starter, got it going, and then made some pretty nice loaves by following the recipe in the King Arthur book....maybe if you're new to this, check it out....it worked pretty well for me.

[Lkfarkas]

Eep....now that I opened my big yap, I'm realizing that you just want the dang starter to work out right, and aren't necessarily wanting a DOUGH to work with yet. Sorry....I was thinking "proofing" as in dough proofing...not the starter. I did what Devlin said with cutting back the water, and proofed in my oven w/the light on & it helped immensely. Best of luck to you! When you do get your starter working (it will come, I promise!), that recipe I posted worked pretty nicely for me with my having little sourdough experience!

Best,

[Jon Savage]

One of the challenges of making sourdough is figuring out what your culture's needs are-

ambient in my kitchen is around 60F and dough needs at least 12 hours to rise using my culture - up to 24 hours is fine as well. In contrast to others I do everything (except for retarding in the fridge) at ambient temps. I applaud your persistence and look forward to reading about your success.

[devlin]

In contrast to others I do everything (except for retarding in the fridge) at ambient temps.

←

Actually, I do it the same way.

I have a retarder, but I haven't used it yet, although I expect to soon.

[astartenyny]

i've been experimenting with sourdough too. here are some links to my wee video documentary of the process:

i've now been making 2 loaves a week for the past month. have been experimenting with different blends of rye and wholemeal. when i just use strong white flour i find it turns out really spongy -- lots of small to medium air bubbles inside.

i had to bin last week's loaves because i left them to rise for too long in a very warm room and forgot about them. when i came back the loaves were spilling over the tins and already had a bit of a crust on them. i tried baking them anyways to see how they'd turn out. YUCK!

the recipe i used came from Moro cookbook.

[plk]

I've had great success with the starter instructions in the KAF Baker's companion. Very simple ingredients and process. Very loosely summarized, this is the method:

Day 1: Combine warm water (4 oz) + rye flour (3.5 oz) + 1/8 t molasses.

Day 2: Discard half, then add rye flour and water (same quantities as above).

Day 3: Discard half, then add 4 oz water and 4.25 oz AP flour

Days 4, 5, 6: Same as above

Day 7 (or when established): discard all but 4 oz, add 8oz warm water + 8 oz AP flour

I really like this method because I don't have to go shopping to get anything, and it's just dead easy. Our house stays pretty cold even in the spring (about 60 degrees), so it might have taken a couple of extra days, but it works great. There is definitely enough yeast in rye flour to get a starter going.

I made bagels last week with this starter, using the formula in the Bread Baker's Apprentice, but using this starter as the sponge. If I'm not baking anything, I keep it in the fridge and feed it once a week. If I am baking, I'll take it out of the fridge and up to room temp and try to feed it twice before using it. If I don't, I'll inevitably end up with a flattish loaf (I usually just make a big round miche, so it spreads and doesn't get a good oven spring if the starter isn't really active).

Edited March 28, 2007 by plk (log)

[hummingbirdkiss]

that is the recipe I just used..I bombed with it

....thanks so much for all your wonderful advice

but for some reason I am just not getting this and it is very disheartening!

I will try again someday I am sure ..

[Lkfarkas]

*sob* My 22-month old just got my starter off the counter & dumped it all over the floor. Fortunately, I salvaged what was left in the container. Arggggggggghhhhh!

[KitchenQueen]

This thread got me started. I tried it. Some places say feed every 24 hours, some say 12. I've used KA bread flour.

Mine is now 5-6 days old. Lots of hooch every morning and night. I've been feeding every AM and late night.

Stupid question of the month.

How do I tell when it's right? I have no idea if it's wonderful or garbage.

Thanks.