Dine Out Vancouver

[SBonner]

Sean hit the nail on the head for his observations re: DOV. As a restaurant owner or manager you have to be prepared for DOV and I think many restaurants are just not prepared for the service levels required to cover so many covers each night for a prolonged duration. I personally never go out to DOV events and would rather pay full amounts to experience a restaurant at its best at another time of year.

Patrons who do not reserve or have the courtesy to cancel a reso are a blight on this industry. In the U.K. and Spain a credit card is charged anywhere from 10-50 Euro's for a no show. It is my understanding that in Europe you can get away with this as a reso is considered a contract between you and the restaurant.

Happy DOV

Stephen

[Jeffy Boy]

Patrons who do not reserve or have the courtesy to cancel a reso are a blight on this industry. In the U.K. and Spain a credit card is charged anywhere from 10-50 Euro's for a no show.

I'd be quite happy to see this policy introduced here. I'm guessing many of these same no-shows would be the first to bitch and whine if their reserved table wasn't available on time. Inconsiderate, self-centred boors. You should have to take an etiquette course to graduate high school.

[nwyles]

Patrons who do not reserve or have the courtesy to cancel a reso are a blight on this industry. In the U.K. and Spain a credit card is charged anywhere from 10-50 Euro's for a no show.

I'd be quite happy to see this policy introduced here. I'm guessing many of these same no-shows would be the first to bitch and whine if their reserved table wasn't available on time. Inconsiderate, self-centred boors. You should have to take an etiquette course to graduate high school.

←

Just a quick note here.

This is Monday @ 10 :30 P.M.

We have had a total of six no shows - two fri, two sat and two on Sunday. I spent most of my setup time on Sat trying to confirm all resos, I left messages etc.

What kills me ( or cracks me up ? ) is when I call a reso 1 hour after their time and inquire whether they will be coming. Most times they stammer around and don't know what to say, most lie and say I canceled that and one this weekend said " Oh , I don't think we will be able to make that ! " - I mean really , you are already over one hour late and you are still at home.

Another little thing I like to do with no shows is call ad leave a message -

"Hi , this is Neil from HSG, I have been holding your table for two hours and I just wanted to check and see if I was mistaken and had you down for the wrong night. Can you call me back and let me know either way. Thank you. "

I know it is petty but it is my special way of telling you you are an asshole ! I am the only one who gets pleasure out of it. Some might think it a little short sighted but I really use my extra special phone voice, extra sweet ! I then gently hang up the phone and strut around the restaurant like I just gave someone a major ass whoopin' - Who is the Man !! ( Yeah, the man of my own small terarium of a world - occupant - One )

[Andrew Morrison]

Neil,

You're not the only one who derives pleasure from the odd bit of abuse thrown at no shows. After all, they leave their name and number.

If you ever get calls in the middle of the night from someone screaming incoherently in tongues, it's probably a drunken maitre'd and a hostess entertaining themselves at the end of their shift. Ask yourself this:

"Did I cancel that reservation tonight?"

How else are they going to learn this little urban nicety?

The Godfather-esque horse head in the duvet is getting old.

Perhaps we could devise a system along the lines of Homeland Security's. We could red-flag suspected no-shows on a database so that whenever a chronic no-show makes a reso they are taken down by a team of bussers and shipped to G-bay, Cuba for a bit of caged fine dining...

Just a thought, ten minutes after signing out on a doozy of a Monday.

Edited January 25, 2005 by editor@waiterblog (log)

[Megs]

Another little thing I like to do with no shows is call ad leave a message -

"Hi , this is Neil from HSG, I have been holding your table for two hours and I just wanted to check and see if I was mistaken and had you down for the wrong night. Can you call me back and let me know either way. Thank you. "

I know it is petty but it is my special way of telling you you are an asshole ! I am the only one who gets pleasure out of it. Some might think it a little short sighted but I really use my extra special phone voice, extra sweet ! I then gently hang up the phone and strut around the restaurant like I just gave someone a major ass whoopin' - Who is the Man !! ( Yeah, the man of my own small terarium of a world - occupant - One )

←

As a former restaurant employee and a frequent restaurant patron, I see ABSOLUTELY NOTHING wrong with this..... if someone chooses to be rude and selfish by not honouring their reservation and not letting the restaurant know, there is nothing wrong with letting them know that their neglect/laziness has affected you (especially in such a polite way). Nothing pisses me off more than people with no manners, and not showing up without calling is downright rude!!

(Wow, I didn't know I felt so strongly! )

Also, for the rest of the general public who would love to get into sold out restaurants during DOV, it's a bit of a slap.

I'm in total agreement about etiquitte lessons in high school....rude people suck

[Oat Cake]

Patrons who do not reserve or have the courtesy to cancel a reso are a blight on this industry. In the U.K. and Spain a credit card is charged anywhere from 10-50 Euro's for a no show. It is my understanding that in Europe you can get away with this as a reso is considered a contract between you and the restaurant.

←

Forgive my bafflement, but why would such a policy be a problem here? (If memory serves me correctly, certain NYC restaurants also ask for a credit card in case of a "no show".) Whilst I realize it involves extra admin on the part of the resto if they actually have to process a "no show" penalty, surely it's better than absolutely nothing - particularly at peak times?

To state the blindin' obvious, restaurants are a business not some sort of pseudo-charity. By way of an analogy, if you book theatre tickets to be collected at the box office and then don't pick them up, surprisingly you still have to pay for 'em.

As Jeffy Boy expressed, surely the vast majority of decent diners would have no problem with leaving a credit card number. If diners have to cancel for unexpected reasons, then it also motivates those who wouldn't bother otherwise to call and let the resto know - and in a timely manner - rather than just think they can get away with the "my grandmother's second cousin's hamster's brother ate my car keys" school of excuses.

Oh well, enough already! I've a Burns' Night supper to attend to and yes, I HAVE taken all my invited guests' credit card numbers.......

[nwyles]

I wanted to add a quick reply re: credit card resos

I know this is off topic of the Heather subject and I await the wrath............

I take credit card resos for the wine tastings and people still do not show or call at the last minute to cancel.

There are a couple of things here to think about -

It certainly creates a negative experience - right or wrong - for your customer. Do you teach them a lesson at the expense of never having them back.

I had one guy call after he did a no-show for an event ( these events all sell out with a waiting list so if you give me some notice, I can fill the spot and everybody is happy ) and complained, saying he was very "concerned" about the future of my business. I asked him what he meant by that and he said that he would tell eveyone he knew about me charging him for an event he did not attend. I assured him that the future was sound. I would not budge until he backed down and apologized. I then told him the charge would stand but I extended him another chance to attend the next event and I would give it to him for half price. He accepted. I win. I got the money and still kept the customer.

I know some restaurants send out gift certificates to people that they charge and not show. I myself would be embarassed to use those as they would probably say " no show reso loser" on them and everybody would know, come over to the table and make fun of you !! But really not a bad idea, if they use them , you kept the customer, if they do not, you still got the money.

I will start a new topic and see what other people have to say.

[butter]

Another little thing I like to do with no shows is call ad leave a message -

"Hi , this is Neil from HSG, I have been holding your table for two hours and I just wanted to check and see if I was mistaken and had you down for the wrong night. Can you call me back and let me know either way. Thank you. "

I know it is petty but it is my special way of telling you you are an asshole ! I am the only one who gets pleasure out of it. Some might think it a little short sighted but I really use my extra special phone voice, extra sweet ! I then gently hang up the phone and strut around the restaurant like I just gave someone a major ass whoopin' - Who is the Man !!

←

[Mangoe]

I have been to 3 restaurants for dineout and I had reservations for all. I showed up early, this reservation was at Joe Fortes for 8pm, and we were able to get seated at 7;30pm and this was on Friday. The next reservation was for Mon at West 7pm but again we were seated about 6:45. The most recent reservation was for Saltaire 7pm but we arrived early, and was seated a little after 6pm. So it goes to show, either the restos were not that busy and/or some people did not call to cancel their reservation.

[nwyles]

I have been to 3 restaurants for dineout and I had reservations for all. I showed up early, this reservation was at Joe Fortes for 8pm, and we were able to get seated at 7;30pm and this was on Friday. The next reservation was for Mon at West 7pm but again we were seated about 6:45. The most recent reservation was for Saltaire 7pm but we arrived early, and was seated a little after 6pm. So it goes to show, either the restos were not that busy and/or some people did not call to cancel their reservation.

←

That might not be the case. Last Friday, I had all the resos spaced out by two hours, not wanting to rush anybody. The kitchen was keyed up and food came out in minutes after being ordered. Imagine that you were only waiting minues after ordering, when normally you wait 1/2 hour. It certainly trimmed up dining times and people were wrapping up in one and a half hours. I was a bit more aggressive on Sat and all worked fine. We had a couple of large tables "camp" - ie - table of ten @ 6:30 still there @ 9:40, getting refills on hot water and lemon. All worked out without any major bottle necks. Showing up early gets you sat early and gets you out early - all good for the restaurant that is overbooked !

[transfattyacid]

Patrons who do not reserve or have the courtesy to cancel a reso are a blight on this industry. In the U.K. and Spain a credit card is charged anywhere from 10-50 Euro's for a no show. It is my understanding that in Europe you can get away with this as a reso is considered a contract between you and the restaurant.

one problem with this plan , that i might add it is a good one , but we live in the land of the noncommittal . ( owww he said the C word . cancel every thing ! dont panic ! dont panic ! )

true the no show `ers are the bain of the industry

and those special people ( you know the ones , the omg like can i have a table its like sooooooo ..........) who book 4 restaurants for the same night and go to the one they fancy , but dont have the relevant brain capacity to let the , soooo last week restaurants ( their words fellow forumites not mine ), know of their plans .

hmmmmm i really, really , really love those people

[nwyles]

I wanted to be specific in the title as to not have this post moved. I am refering to Dine Out Vancouver and what Tourism Vancouver and the restaurants / partners involved can do to improve the whole thing.

I do not want to get off on the wrong foot and start bashing restaurants and / or people who do not show. I want this be a discussion as to how the very popular event can be handled. I will put up a few suggestions in no particular order.

1. Limit table time to two hours MAX. How to enforce this ? A Dine Out Policy statement / contract ? I do not know but am looking for ideas. This is a two way street. Restaurants need to make sure they hold up their end as well. As the restaurants are in the hospitality sector, they do not want to be shooing the guests out ever but in the interest of offering this to as many people who want it, something needs to be done.

2. Credit card reservation system through Visa - a Tourism Van partner. Logistical nightmare but not impossible. A $20 non refundable booking fee for each reservation credited to your dinner if you show !

3. Change the dates to encompass a month. Seattle does a similar event but does not include weekends - that is left to the individual restaurant. This would allow the guest to acceess this promotion for a minimum 20 days instead of 14. The downside is the guest can't do it on weekends. The upside for the restaurant is they can do regular dining if they wish at the weekends and get full dollar if it works for them. It would have to start about the 15th of January and finish before Valentine's Day. Could it work ? Why not. Is it a win - win ? It is for me.

4. Offer salad, then an appy and then dinner. Omit dessert. This is the point when people really start to put on the brakes and hang out for a long time, oblivious to the party standing next to them for 40 minutes waiting for the table. If #1 is used, this would not be needed.

This is enough to get us started. This is a great event and everybody benefits from it. It introduces new people to a restaurant they might have never been to, it keeps lots of people working through a slow month - restaurants, wine brokers, suppliers, linen guys, delivery guys you name it.

I want to keep this positive as this event is not going away but perhaps some of the difficulties both sides encounter can be eliminated.

Neil Wyles, Chef, Carrot peeler, phone guy, everything guy,owner

Hamilton Street Grill

[Ling]

I don't have a problem with any of your suggestions, and I think having DOV for a full month (on the weekdays) would be a great idea, if the restaurant also offered their regular menu on those nights (would that be difficult to execute?)

I don't know about #4 though...I know how frustrating it must be to see a table drag out their welcome when another table's waiting, but there are people out there who can inhale a dessert pretty quickly, and who feel a meal wouldn't be as special (or even complete) if dessert wasn't offered.

edit: I didn't read your post carefully. I think dessert should be offered, but it should be made clear that the table would be needed after 2 hours. The Irish Heather had that policy when I called for a reservation and I didn't have a problem with that.

Edited January 31, 2005 by Ling (log)

[Andrew Morrison]

This is a great event and everybody benefits from it. It introduces new people to a restaurant they might have never been to, it keeps lots of people working through a slow month - restaurants, wine brokers, suppliers, linen guys, delivery guys you name it.

I'm glad someone said it, and I'm not surprised it was Neil.

My suggestion regards the maintenance of staff morale in what usually proves to be a fiscally brutal time:

add a 15% before tax grat to each bill automatically.

[Daddy-A]

Taking the diners' side of this question, let me answer some of Neil's points ...

1. Limit table time to two hours MAX. How to enforce this ?

That's not unheard of in my experience. Often times I'll book a reservation outside of a normal seating time and I'll be informed the restaurant needs that table for another reservation by a specific time. I can either accept that, or make a different reservation.

2. Credit card reservation system through Visa - a Tourism Van partner.

As long as Visa stays on board this is a slam dunk IMO. Manuel was talking about this at Le Gavroche last night and seemed to indicate it was a done deal for next year. I'd have no problem if this were standard policy even after DOV.

3. Change the dates to encompass a month. Seattle does a similar event but does not include weekends - that is left to the individual restaurant. This would allow the guest to acceess this promotion for a minimum 20 days instead of 14.

Don't a lot of places sort of do this already by extending the DOV menus past a given date? I don't have a problem with M-F only, but I know many who would. Not all of us can get out mid-week.

My addition to this list would be for the restaurants to use their standard menu for DOV. Scale it back a bit to compensate for the reduced price , but offer what it is you do, not just something that will get you by. If you're trying to sell yourself to me, I should be able to sample what you offer day in day out. This would also keep thing simpler for the kitchen and FOH as there would be nothing new to learn ... business as usual.

A.

[Andrew Morrison]

My addition to this list would be for the restaurants to use their standard menu for DOV. Scale it back a bit to compensate for the reduced price , but offer what it is you do, not just something that will get you by. If you're trying to sell yourself to me, I should be able to sample what you offer day in day out.

Arne, I agree with one or two reservations (and I say this both as a frequent diner and not as an industroid). I think keeping the DOV menus focused on what the restaurant traditionally showcases rather than passable, thoroughly food-costed dishes that will never be served again is a logical and excellent idea...but costing might be a problem (Neil?).

Other than that, most of us commit to memory five specials per night, so "learning" a DOV menu is a no-brainer.

I tell you this, when our prix fixe menu goes the way of the dodo in March, there will be much rejoicing.

Edited January 31, 2005 by editor@waiterblog (log)

[Vancouver Lee]

I wanted to be specific in the title as to not have this post moved. I am refering to Dine Out Vancouver and what Tourism Vancouver and the restaurants / partners involved can do to improve the whole thing.

I do not want to get off on the wrong foot and start bashing restaurants and / or people who do not show. I want this be a discussion as to how the very popular event can be handled. I will put up a few suggestions in no particular order.

1. Limit table time to two hours MAX. How to enforce this ? A Dine Out Policy statement / contract ? I do not know but am looking for ideas. This is a two way street. Restaurants need to make sure they hold up their end as well. As the restaurants are in the hospitality sector, they do not want to be shooing the guests out ever but in the interest of offering this to as many people who want it, something needs to be done.

2. Credit card reservation system through Visa - a Tourism Van partner. Logistical nightmare but not impossible. A $20 non refundable booking fee for each reservation credited to your dinner if you show !

3. Change the dates to encompass a month. Seattle does a similar event but does not include weekends - that is left to the individual restaurant. This would allow the guest to acceess this promotion for a minimum 20 days instead of 14. The downside is the guest can't do it on weekends. The upside for the restaurant is they can do regular dining if they wish at the weekends and get full dollar if it works for them. It would have to start about the 15th of January and finish before Valentine's Day. Could it work ? Why not. Is it a win - win ? It is for me.

4. Offer salad, then an appy and then dinner. Omit dessert. This is the point when people really start to put on the brakes and hang out for a long time, oblivious to the party standing next to them for 40 minutes waiting for the table. If #1 is used, this would not be needed.

This is enough to get us started. This is a great event and everybody benefits from it. It introduces new people to a restaurant they might have never been to, it keeps lots of people working through a slow month - restaurants, wine brokers, suppliers, linen guys, delivery guys you name it.

I want to keep this positive as this event is not going away but perhaps some of the difficulties both sides encounter can be eliminated.

Neil Wyles, Chef, Carrot peeler, phone guy, everything guy,owner

Hamilton Street Grill

←

Funny you should post this tonight, Neil. I was planning to start a thread similar to this (albeit from the diner's perspective) myself.

I would support your first three ideas, and hopefully once people get used to the 2 hour limit there would be no need to eliminate the desert course.

Having now visited three restaurants (and will be having lunch at your restaurant tomorrow, Neil) during DOV, I would agree that it's a great event, and I'd like to see it continue. But I'm not exactly sure I get it. Let me explain:

2 of the 3 restaurants I've been to did not live up to their reputations, IMO. From reading your hilarious posts, Neil, and the comments of others, DOV is clearly a difficult event to pull off smoothly, particularly for a FD establishment, so I'm sympathetic to the argument that I shouldn't make judgements based on a DOV visit. But if I shouldn't expect my experience during DOV to be representative, why would I want to go? Put a different way, if this event is about attracting new clientelle, isn't it counterproductive to underwhelm all those new potential customers?

Please don't get me wrong here, I'm not trying to be critical of the event, or of any restaurant in particular. I guess I'm just struggling to wrap my head around the business objectives of the event.

I'd be interested in hearing from some of the restauranteurs here about this. Why do the event if you can't maintain the high standards you work so hard to deliver the rest of the year?

[Andrew Morrison]

I may not be a restauraneur, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night.

I think the most obvious answer (and there are others) is:

January is the place where restaurants go to die.

Edited January 31, 2005 by editor@waiterblog (log)

[winegeek]

This is a great event and everybody benefits from it. It introduces new people to a restaurant they might have never been to, it keeps lots of people working through a slow month - restaurants, wine brokers, suppliers, linen guys, delivery guys you name it.

I'm glad someone said it, and I'm not surprised it was Neil.

My suggestion regards the maintenance of staff morale in what usually proves to be a fiscally brutal time:

add a 15% before tax grat to each bill automatically.

←

As you know, I'm a server. I work my a** off during DOV, as I do the vast majority of the time. I don't like getting stiffed as much as the next guy. I do have a problem with auto grats though. As much as most servers will deny this, auto grats will take away incentive to provide first rate service. Not necessarily from real pros in the industry, but from those who are "just a server until I get my big break". I realise that we serve alot of guests who have no concept of a proper tip, but that's life. This is my profession, one which I have been doing for 20+ years. You take the good with the bad. I'd rather work during DOV than to be called off 2 of my 4 night shifts. It's definately mentally exhausting, but it is only two weeks. Don't know if I'd want four .

As for time limits, is this not common practice? If not, the retaurants have no one to blame but themselves. We are very adamant when taking reservations that the time limit is 2 hours. If the guest does not agree with this, they are welcome to come back another time. If the servers work the table properly (BOH also), 2 hours should not even be an issue. Yes there are laggers, but they are usually very understanding when informed of the time limit.

I agree with the deposit on a CC when taking reservations. But I'm not a hostess . I think they have the toughest job in the industry during DOV.

[*Deborah*]

The only problem I have with an automatic 15% gratuity is that it disinclines me to add up to the 20% after tax I usually give.

I sincerely doubt that the people who have served me the past week or so would like to give up that gravy.

[Andrew Morrison]

with full knowledge of the 15%, just add another 5% to the charge.

[nwyles]

2 of the 3 restaurants I've been to did not live up to their reputations, IMO. From reading your hilarious posts, Neil, and the comments of others, DOV is clearly a difficult event to pull off smoothly, particularly for a FD establishment, so I'm sympathetic to the argument that I shouldn't make judgements based on a DOV visit. But if I shouldn't expect my experience during DOV to be representative, why would I want to go? Put a different way, if this event is about attracting new clientelle, isn't it counterproductive to underwhelm all those new potential customers?

I totally agree. There are a finite amount of guests that a restaurant can handle well. I would rather see those guests spread out over a one month period and show them a great time rather than just a good deal. You certainly want everbody to walk away feeling good about what just happened than underwhelmed !

I realize that lots of restaurants extend their Dine Out offerings, myself included. It is easy to do when the event has such momentum. I can only really speak from my experience, but I would much rather have 30 strong nights in a row than 8 strong nights and 6 crazy ones. I would like to say the room here on the weekends has a nice " buzz" to it but I could not hear it over the roar of the crowd.

It makes it interesting to plan the logistics of a crazy night with more people than you can really handle, people racked and stacked like jetplanes over Chicago's O'hare airport during a snowstorm, but are you really putting your best foot forward ? Not really. Are your guests getting your very best? I doubt it. No one really tries to overbook so they underwhelm their guests, it just happens when the floodgates open !

I would like to see the extended Dine Out with the weekend exclusions. I would probably have the Dine Out menu for the first turn ( 6:00 ) on the weekends and save the later turn for your regular diners. Let us not forget that although the Dine OUt menu is available to your regular diners, they can be virtually shut out for a couple of weeks. It forces them to find a non Dine Out option sometimes - which is ok, except what if they like it more than your place !

[2roost]

#1 - Absolutely - but I think many participants do this already.

#2 - Would be great but as you state is a logistical nightmare so I don't see it happening.

#3 - I think the promotion as 2 weeks is fine - if individual restaurants wish to extend it that's up to them. As for eliminating weekends I have to disagree, there are a lot of people who have a great deal of trouble getting out mid-week and restaurants, who are reaping the DineOut benefit Sunday-Wednesday, can manage the book a little better to minimize the Friday/Saturday madness - particularly if #1 is enforced.

#4- Leave it up to the individual establishments to offer 3 courses however they desire.

As a sidebar I can't go with WaiterBlog's 15% autograt on DOV guests. I am a server and it just ain't right to pigeonhole Dine Out Diners as bad tippers, truth is the tip % on DOV meals is generally lower than my regular guests but the autograt is a crutch best used sparingly.

[nwyles]

As to the auto grat - we have it available to servers for parties over 8.

Lots of them opt not to as they take a chance that it will be 20 % plus. 8 times out of ten, it works out in their favour. This is during non Dine Out times !

With all due respect to waiters the caliber of Andrew, this could be a potential disaster. It could lead to crappy service as the tip is guaranteed. Oh, I was just being nice. It will lead to really shitty service by those people who are the lazy ones who ride on the coattails of others. You know the kind. Ring in their food but are nowhere to be found when it comes up so others have to run it. Collect the billfold from the table but leave all the other stuff for others to clear. Pretend to be deaf when you are calling for them to get their meals, stand at the bar well yapping while waiting for drinks rather than helping someone else. Can hit the land speed record during cashout so they can be first out the door, leaving all of the final clean up to the same ones night after night. Plan their orders around a quick smoke break rather than a mise en place stock up. You know the ones !

It does leave the good waiter open to getting the shaft every now and then but the good ones make it up on the other tables. The good ones make it up on volume as well.

What would you rather have - 20 % tips on a $500 night or 10% on a $2000 night. This is the reality for lots of people during a non Dine Out January. Although you can strut around, secure in the fact that you are an excellent 20 % tip waiter, it does not put enough bread on the table in the shoulder months. I myself, would rather string 30 15 % nights at $1500 together.

[nwyles]

As to the two hour limit, the question is how to enforce it. Once a guest plants themselves and they know in their heart of hearts that they are going to fuck you over by not sticking to the limit, what do you do ? No one is oblivious to someone's ass in their face, standing next to the table, waiting for you to leave. They just choose to ignore it.

It works against all of the hard work you are doing to "toss" someone, having them have a negative experience at the very end, which is the only thing they will remember.

I always tell people I have another booking even if I do not. It plants the seed so that they know they can not stay all night. what is the enforcement ? Purchase the next seating as well ?

"Sir, the next seating is in two hours. If you wish to stay longer, it will cost you the number of seats you have times $25.00 ! Please let us know in advence so we can make other arrangements for the other party." That would certainly light a fire under someone.

I know this is like preaching to the choir as the people who post and read here are aware of all of these things. Ideas people, we needs ideas !

Ejection seats ? Teapots that give shocks after two refills ? Highly focused 400 watt halogen bulbs in the eyes.

I hate turning people away and would like to offer this deal to as many who want it, not as many as I have to cram in. I would also like it to be less of a "goat rodeo" on the weekends.