Is 2004 the year the NYC pizza world changed?

[slkinsey]

There is a very interesting article in the recent NY Magazine. The jist of the article is this: The old school NYC coal-oven places have been resting on their laurels for too long, and quality is in the decline. Into this vacuum have come a number of "new NYC school" wood-burning pizzerie, serving individual pizze in the Italian style, with "artisinal" ingredients and approach.

Here are some relevant quotes:

It Happened This Year: A Guide to 2004

Pizza Got a New Upper Crust.

A new generation of pie-makers is righting the wrongs perpetrated by coal-oven complacency.

Like just about every other edible thing in New York, pizza has gone artisanal. A feisty new flock of pizzaiuoli are making their own cheese (or importing mozzarella di bufala from Italy), growing their own herbs and greens, curing their own pepperoni. Pizza is suddenly serious business. And just in time: . . . the great old New York pizza places . . . have increasingly been caught coasting on their bloated reputations and gone-haywire Zagat ratings.

The pizzaiuoli of 2004 consider themselves traditionalists, and, with the exception of Di Fara’s Manhattan spinoff, De Marco’s, look more to Naples than to New York for inspiration.

Featured are small writeups of Franny's, Fornino, De Marco’s, Peperoncino, and Una Pizza Napoletana.

So, have the "new NYC school" places come to the fore as the leaders in NY pizza? As a charter member of the NY Pizza Survey, I have to say that I think there is something to this. There really is no old school pizzeria in NYC that has the combination of a consistently outstanding crust and high quality ingredients the way the new places do. I love Patsy's and Grimaldi's (the best of the old-school places, in my opinion) but . . . Many of Patsy's toppings are old school in a bad way, such as their tasteless watery canned olives. And Grimaldi's crust is maddeningly inconsistent, being almost-as-good-as-Patsy's one visit and just-better-than-Ray's the next. Both these places have maybe 3 pizza configurations that can be truly outstanding. Franny's, on the other hand, hits the bull's eye every time, and with the manu changing on a weekly basis, there is no chance of getting bored.

[hrowe]

So De Marco's is open? Any reports??

[wannabechef]

There really is no old school pizzeria in NYC that has the combination of a consistently outstanding crust and high quality ingredients the way the new places do.

I've never had a bad pie at Totonnos in Bklyn. Each of the 3 basic ingredients were perfect every time. I'd also like to put my .02 in for Nick's in Forest Hills. While not "old school" I think this is up there with the rest of the top places - in fact better than all I've tried except possibly Totonnos and Di Faras (although I put Di Faras in its own category - can't really be directly compared to the coal oven places IMO).

Also, I know you love Franny's. I tried it a few months ago. It was very good - but I was underwelmed. Especially for that price.

~WBC

[TrishCT]

Patsy's is excellent. Could it it add better, fresher toppings? Sure, it would be nice. But to the pizza cognoscenti, do toppings really matter? One of the new heralded places, Una Pizza Napoletena, only offers four types of pizza, one with just marinara, no cheese.

I for one, would hate to see Patsy's close its coal fired oven, because I think the quality of their pies is excellent, even amongst the new "upper crust."

Edited December 16, 2004 by TrishCT (log)

[slkinsey]

There really is no old school pizzeria in NYC that has the combination of a consistently outstanding crust and high quality ingredients the way the new places do.

I've never had a bad pie at Totonnos in Bklyn.

Really? I suppose it depends on what features of a pizza one assigns the most importance. In my world, it's 80% about the crust and 20% about the other stuff. When the NY Pizza Survey went there I think we all had the impression that the pizza was a little soupy and as a result the crust was not everything it could have been. I wouldn't say that I've had a bad pizza at Totonno's, but I've certainly had pizza there that didn't strike me as exceptional in their class. It is also worthy of note that there were substantial variations in quality even among the dozen or so pizze we ordered in that one trip. More to the point, I wouldn't say that Totonno's is offering top quality ingredients in any category the way they are at places like Fornino, Una Pizza Napoletana, Franny's, et al.

Whether one prefers the "new NYC school" over the "old NYC school" or even over more or less traditional pizzerie operating at a high level (e.g., Di Fara) is going to be a matter of preference and taste. Some people cannot abide paying the prices that go along with the more expensive ingredients and process of the new NYC school. Some people prefer the more doughy crust and copious toppings of the mainstream American places. And some people prefer certain venues simply because of personal fondness and loyalty.

It seems to me an obvious conclusion that most of the old NYC school places are either slipping or stagnating. Are John's and Lombardi's now even good, never mind great? By far the most consistently good old NYC school place is the East Harlem Patsy's, but one cannot help wondering what they could do with higher quality toppings like they use at Grimaldi's. Part of what NY Metro seems to be suggesting, and I wonder if they don't have a point, is whether the new NYC school places are going to supplant the old NYC school places as the leading lights in NYC pizza cookery.

Patsy's is excellent.  Could it it add better, fresher toppings?  Sure, it would be nice.  But to the pizza cognoscenti, do toppings really matter?

I agree that Patsy's is excellent. I go there as often as I can. But I do think they could be a lot more excelent if so many of their toppings didn't suck. And I think they could be even more excellent than that if they offered more interesting toppings like, for example, prosciutto or fresh (actually probably frozen) artichokes like they do at Di Fara.

I don't think good toppings will elevate what is at base a mediocre pizza. But I do think that good toppings can elevate what is at base an excellent pizza, and for sure I think that bad topings can drag down what started off as an excellent pizza.

I for one, would hate to see Patsy's close its coal fired oven, because I think the quality of their pies is excellent, even amongst the new "upper crust."

Thankfully, I don't think we have to worry about that. Patsy's is always going to be miles better than Ray's, Famous Ray's, Original Ray's, Famous Original Ray's, Original Famous Ray's, etc. where most of NYC buys its pizza.

[Pan]

Sam, the baby artichokes at DiFara's are fresh, never frozen. I've seen the boxes they get delivered from California.

Trish, as far as I'm concerned, toppings matter, whether the pizza is in Napoli or New York.

[wannabechef]

I guess you're asking... have the "old school" places gone downhill from their old days, or are they being surpassed by the artisinal places opening up now? I'm not old enough to remember Totonnos, Lombardis, etc back when they first opened so I guess I'm not really in a position to judge - but I would be interested to hear from people who've eaten at these places in their hayday.

Totonnos may not being using the gourmet ingredients as Franny's etc, but that doesn't necessarily prevent their pizza from being superior. I'm only talking about the plain pie now - when you throw toppings into the mix that can change everything.

But as far as the crust goes for instance, its basically flour, water and yeast. What can be gourmet there? Some argue that the key to those old school places is in the pipes. Guess thats a whole discussion on its own!

If they make their own sauce from fresh or high quality tomatoes, and even make their own cheese, what else is left really? I just have a bit of beef with these new places opening up. From a plain pie perspective, ingredients-wise, what do they have over old school places?

I think it boils down to recipe, technique, and procedure (oven, rising, etc) - and those things shouldn't be making the price of the pizza so much higher.

Of course theres the supply-demand thing, rent/location, etc to consider as well.

[slkinsey]

But as far as the crust goes for instance, its basically flour, water and yeast. What can be gourmet there?

I don't necessarily think it's a matter of being "gourmet" -- I just think it's a matter of being consistently superior in execution. There can certainly be some minor differences in recipe: Una Pizza Napolitana maintains a natural leaven, I think, and other places may use hard flour and oil while others may use soft flour and no oil, etc. But of course much of it comes down to technical execution. How well trained is the pizzaiolo? How well does he know the oven? Are they keeping the oven hot enough? Do the dough, ingredients, deployment of ingredients and pizzaiolo's expertise combine to consistently produce an exceptional and distinctive pizza?

For example, let's take Totonno's... Now, I'm not saying that the pizza isn't good. But it also strikes me that it could be a lot better. Our main quibble when the Survey visited Totonno's was that the pizze were too wet. Too many wet ingredients had a clear and negative effect on the quality of the crust, which didn't particularly display the "coal oven effect" one would like to see. I also have concerns that they are not maintaining the oven at a sufficiently high temperature. The pizze we had at Totonno's took over ten minutes to cook, whereas pizza in Patsy's consistently high-temperature oven take 2-3 minutes at most. This is a case, in my opinion, where the quality ingredients are there but the execution is lacking. Is Totonno's slipping? Well, I didn't go there back in the "glory days," but among those who did the general consensus seems to be that it is.

Fundamentally making pizza shouldn't be rocket science. But the skill of the pizziaolo makes a big difference. This is why Di Fara turns out such a quality product despite the fact that his equipment is nothing special. And this brings up a good point: in most of the new places, the pizzaioli are the owners. At Franny's Andrew Feinberg is back there making your pizza and keeping the oven stoked; at Fornino Michael Ayoub is right there making sure everything is right; at Una Pizza Napoletana it's Anthony Mangieri making your pizza. This means that the person most directly responsible for making your pizza is not only highly trained and dedicated, but is also the person most personally invested in turning out an outstanding product. I recall reading (I think in Reinhardt's "American Pie") about a conversation with Alice Waters in which she says that the single biggest challenge in making quality pizza at her place is retaining someone with experience and training at the pizzaiolo station. Not for nothing did the reports of a decline at Totonno's start happening right around the time the younger generation took over.

I think it boils down to recipe, technique, and procedure (oven, rising, etc) - and those things shouldn't be making the price of the pizza so much higher.

Of course theres the supply-demand thing, rent/location, etc to consider as well.

Cost is definitely a legitimate quibble. A plain mozzarella/tomato pizza at Totonno will run you $16.50, as will a pizza with fresh mozzarella at Patsy's. Grimaldi's is $14. Currently Franny's has a pizza with buffalo mozzarella and tomato for $13, and the pizze at Una Pizza Napoletana run around $17. Given the smaller size of the artisinal pizze, the old school places clearly offer more bang for the buck. That said, the difference in cost between, say, Patsy's and Franny's isn't all that much, considering the thin lightness of Patsy's product and the fact that Franny's is using buffalo mozzarella.

It's also fair, I think, to consider the other costs and how the different places are handling those costs. All the old-school places, with the exception of Patsy's East Harlem, are in my opinion skimping on the oven fuel to the clear detriment of the oven temperature. This may be due to a lack of knowledge and technique on the part of the oven man and pizzaiolo, or it may be a cost-saving measure to maintain a certain price point. Patsy's, the only old school place with a consistently hot oven, has the advantage of owning their building, and their tax assessment is probably not that high given the East Harlem location. Coincidence? Maybe.

Fundamentally, I suppose, it comes down to whether one has the mindset that pizza is a cheap food or whether there are certain circumstances where it can be worth the money to pay more. Certainly we seem to accept that some places charge a lot more for a burger than others, based to a certain extend on better execution and the use of higher quality ingredients. But for someone who views pizza or burgers as fundamentally an inexpensive food, the price can represent a barrier.

I'm not saying, by the way, that the new school places are intrinsically better than the old school places. Just that they seem to be achieving on a higher level right now and seem to have taken some of the shine off the old school places that have largely been coasting of late.

I just saw this Gothamist article that I thought added some interesting points:

Grimaldi's vs. Una Pizza Napoletana: Old-School New York Pizza Goes Up Against the New Kid In Town

First we heard rumblings on eGullet. Then we got the first review from our favorite pizza blog, Slice NY. Next things got official when The New York Times, New York magazine, and the Village Voice weighed in, too.

They were all speaking of the East Village's newest pizzeria, Una Pizza Napoletana, a place whose owner, Anthony Mangieri, claimed, "n my opinion, there's no good pizza" in New York. Given the hallowed history of New York pizza . . . them's fightin' words, for sure.

+ + +

If forced to choose a winner, Gothamist would go with Una Pizza Napoletana. Those added touches of flavor were subtle but distinct in such a way that made the pizza transcend greatness and achieve some sort of Platonic Ideal.

Cool to see that we got our props.

[wannabechef]

Good points Sam. I was wondering, have you tried Nicks in Forest Hills? I'm curious to hear what you think - because its "old school" style in a new place. I also think their crust is superb. Perfect amount of char. One thing I noticed about their crust, and I'm not sure of the reason: it seems to hold up extremely well as the pizza cools. For example, something I noticed at my last two trips to Grimaldis and Lombardis. After cooling for a few minutes, the crust gets soggy and chewey to the point where its actually tiring to chew! This symptom caused me to basically take those two places off my "list" so to say. However at Nicks, the crust stayed perfect until the last slice. Do you know could cause this? Is it moisture in the dough?

I haven't been to Patsys yet, but after hearing so much talk about it on these threads I guess I have to go see what its all about. Another destination in my mind is a trip up to New Haven. Haven't been in years. Any thoughts on those places compared to our NYC places?

~WBC

[TrishCT]

The excerpt from the Gothamist exemplifies what I was saying before... What seems to matter in these pizza afficionado comparisons of old school/new school pizza, is not the toppings, but the pie.

Una Pizza Napoletena has such a limited selection of toppings that the pie, with/without sauce and cheese is THE thing.

My point being--- If you want to say Patsy has subpar toppings-- so be it--but when it comes to a pizza pie comparison, Patsy's pie with sauce and cheese is excellent and I think they were falsely accused of "coasting on their bloated reputation."

[Pan]

[...]

I just saw this Gothamist article[...]

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Result of clicking link:

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The requested document was not found on this server.

Web Server at gothamist.com

[slkinsey]

Bizarre. It's not coding properly. Try this:

http://www.gothamist.com/archives/2004/12/08/grimaldis_vs_una_pizza_napoletana_oldschool_new_york_pizza_goes_up_against_the_new_kid_in_town.php

[Pan]

Thanks, Sam. I liked the article, and there's an interesting discussion below.

[BrentKulman]

Out of curiosity, what is the cooking temperature in a wood-fired oven?

[slkinsey]

The excerpt from the Gothamist exemplifies what I was saying before... What seems to matter in these pizza afficionado comparisons of old school/new school pizza, is not the toppings, but the pie.

Una Pizza Napoletena has such a limited selection of toppings that the pie, with/without sauce and cheese is THE thing.

My point being--- If you want to say Patsy has subpar toppings-- so be it--but when it comes to a pizza pie comparison, Patsy's pie with sauce and cheese is excellent and I think they were falsely accused of "coasting on their bloated reputation."

I'm not sure what exactly you mean by "pie" here, but am assuming it is the crust. I agree with those who suppose that most of the game is in the crust, and that the ingredients should complement but not detract from the full expression of the crust.

I also agree with you that Patsy's East Harlem (and only in East Harlem) is operating at a very high level, and doesn't really deserve to be lumped together with places like Lombardi's that are in serious decline. Patsy's is clearly head and shoulders over the other old school places, although Grimaldi's can come close on the rare occasions when they are 100% on top of their game.

That said, while one cannot say that Patsy's is in decline, it's not growing and improving either. It's holding steady. Unfortunately (to me) it's holding steady at in the pizza world of the 1980s, when things like black olives that taste like the can were de rigeur. I can't imagine that Patsy Lancieri used ingredients like this back in the day. The crust at Patsy's is definitely still excellent, but the fact is that there are really only two or three pizze they make that are truly excellent, while the others are not nearly on the same level, being brought down by the toppings. All this is to say that I think Patsy's is great and the crust is amazing, but I think they could be even better if they offered better toppings. But, then again, ingredients like better olives, better sausage, maybe something like prosciutto, etc... those things also cost more money, and that might actually cut into their business.

Out of curiosity, what is the cooking temperature in a wood-fired oven?

As with all ovens, a lot depends on oven management and whether the oven is kept sufficiently hot. That said, a well fired Neapolitan style wood burning "beehive" oven should get up to somewhere between 400C/750F to 450C/840F.