Trattoria vs. Ristorante

[francesco]

Something Faith Willinger said with her reply on Italian Chefs and Restaurants gave me quite a bit to think of. She has a point when, talking about people like Gennaro Esposito of Torre del Saracino, she says that:

The restaurants and chefs that thrill me the most express a sense of place and season.

I would still consider some of the chefs she mentions in the post as creative, but I guess it's a matter of definition. The important point she made mentioning those names, at least to my eyes, is that a chef can remain true to local ingredients and traditions without compromising creativity. Many of the best places in Italy are accused of being unable of doing so and being French. I don't share this view, but I understand the point behind that critique. The union of tradition and innovation is, to me, probably the only way for the development of a real and unique Italian haute-cuisine, which can subvert the common prejudice on Italian fancy restaurants. A way where the concept of restaurant and trattoria meet if you want, bringing out the best of both worlds. I think the Italian restaurant scene is showing quite a few sign that this is indeed happening, especially if you look at what some of the best young chefs are doing. There's plenty of creativity in their dishes, but also a great attention for the local traditional ingredients.

←

Alberto,

is this "fair"? I mean, and this is a question I have asked myself before, would someone who wished to pursue a different track, a Ferran Adria, be possible in Italy?

There is a contradiction: on the one hand, we tell ourselves that a tradition-based high-end cuisine is the way to go because we think that this is the most that many of our fellow countrymen, visitors (including Faith Willinger), and perhaps ourselves would prefer.

On the other hand, in Faith Willinger's Q&A session, Bux writes

For all of my adult life, which means most of the last half the last century, Italy has been among the vanguard in terms of art and design, certainly among the visual arts and even more so in design. In particular, Italians have often been in forefront of creative thinking and design in those areas that touch our daily life. I'm thinking of architecture, interior design, furniture, product design and fashion. I'm sure most people in Italy don't necessarily live in an avant garde home or wear the latest fashions, yet these fields attract men and women who make an international splash with their creativity. Why has this not been paralleled in food and restaurants?

So, Faith Willinger wants Italian chefs to be creative but to follow along the traditional footpath, while Bux would appreciate more unconstrained creativity. Why aren't the French or the Spanish chefs not asked to resolve that contradiction?

I have argue elsewhere that our strenght is also our weakness: France has never really been known best for its regional cuisine. It would be a gross caricature to suggest that cuisine bourgeois is the same across France, but it is certainly true that middle and low-end dining are not as diverse across the country as they are in Italy. Spain, on the other hand, has no reputational baggage at all: because of the Franco regime, after the second world war, Spanish cooking wasn't known at all and so the country to the foreigner has been until very recently like a clean slate with no set expectations. If there are no expectations, then you are judged on your own merits, not on how well you fit with expectations. It is a bit puzzling to me that the Spaniards themselves have been so ready to accept the new basque cuisine first and the Adria wave later. My guess here is that while Italians will never accept any claim of superiority of French cuisine and so have never, for example, embraced a chef trained in France like Gualtiero Marchesi, the Spanish public has been more ready to embrace French-trained chefs in the Basque country. This set-up a mentality of acceptance of high-end dining in the early 80s that has made Ferran Adria possible in the 90s.

Francesco

[hathor]

Grazie mille for that insightful reply. Between your comments and Faith Willinger's...this has been a thought provoking week on eGullet. (and I'm a street food girl, myself!)

p.s. edit to explain I was thanking Albiston w/out having seen Francesco's very interesting reply!

Edited November 18, 2004 by hathor (log)

[albiston]

Something Faith Willinger said with her reply on Italian Chefs and Restaurants gave me quite a bit to think of. She has a point when, talking about people like Gennaro Esposito of Torre del Saracino, she says that:

The restaurants and chefs that thrill me the most express a sense of place and season.

I would still consider some of the chefs she mentions in the post as creative, but I guess it's a matter of definition. The important point she made mentioning those names, at least to my eyes, is that a chef can remain true to local ingredients and traditions without compromising creativity. Many of the best places in Italy are accused of being unable of doing so and being French. I don't share this view, but I understand the point behind that critique. The union of tradition and innovation is, to me, probably the only way for the development of a real and unique Italian haute-cuisine, which can subvert the common prejudice on Italian fancy restaurants. A way where the concept of restaurant and trattoria meet if you want, bringing out the best of both worlds. I think the Italian restaurant scene is showing quite a few sign that this is indeed happening, especially if you look at what some of the best young chefs are doing. There's plenty of creativity in their dishes, but also a great attention for the local traditional ingredients.

←

Alberto,

is this "fair"? I mean, and this is a question I have asked myself before, would someone who wished to pursue a different track, a Ferran Adria, be possible in Italy?

Francesco,

Fair? No. I'm well aware what I said is not fair. But it also does not want to be absolute. Don't take my thoughts as a party line . We know Italy and Italians, our land and our people, right? So we also know there will never be only one trend in Italian cooking. We're just to anarchic to fit in a line and follow without a note of dissent. If the restaurant trend in Italy would become that of evolving tradition in a creative direction, I bet there would be enough chefs and food journalists who'd go exactly the opposite direction, going absolutely wild on molecular gastronomy, probably even more than today. In a way it keeps a healthy balance.

On the other hand I think it is important for at least some of our best chefs to be able to show ourselves and the world that Italian cooking can stand on its own legs, without being accused of being influenced by the French. One should certainly not forget the recurring problem that some techniques that are seen as French today actually evolved elsewere, more than a few in Italy. But that is not the point. The point is how Italian restaurants are seen both by Italians and foreigners.

The problem with the Italian customer base is not an easy one, and I think that Ronald and Katia made a good point before when they observed the lack of a restaurant "middle", as a category of restaurants that has a clientele that likes to go out and has a fun approach to food. It reflects the fact that eating out, apart in big cities, is not considered a leisure activity by most, but more often a chance to celebrate a special occasion. Add to this that most Italians are reluctant to spend money for dishes many define as bollocks. With these thoughts in mind I think it is not too hard to see that a creative cuisine based strongly on tradition would be a way to win a few customers, to convince a few that restaurants (in the haute cuisine acception) need not be intimidating or alien to one's eating culture. Maybe in a paradoxal way I think that more customers visiting restaurant would bring more money to owners and chefs and eventually encourage a greater creative diversity. It would also give chefs, as you mentioned in one of your preceding posts, the chance to show which peaks of excellence tradition in its purest form can reach when prepared by a gifted professional. It is, in a sense, a problem of getting things in motion.

With foreigners, customers, gourmets and press, clearly the wonderful people here at eGullet excluded , there is another problem, one we've talked about many times before and which can be summed up in Italian restaurant cuisine managing to be taken seriously. There are many reasons why our best chefs get little or no media recognition outside Italy, but IMO lack of skill is not one of them. I think you hit the nail on the head when you say:

So, Faith Willinger wants Italian chefs to be creative but to follow along the traditional footpath, while Bux would appreciate more unconstrained creativity. Why aren't the French or the Spanish chefs not asked to resolve that contradiction?

I have argue elsewhere that our strenght is also our weakness: France has never really been known best for its regional cuisine. It would be a gross caricature to suggest that cuisine bourgeois is the same across France, but it is certainly true that middle and low-end dining are not as diverse across the country as they are in Italy. Spain, on the other hand, has no reputational baggage at all: because of the Franco regime, after the second world war, Spanish cooking wasn't known at all and so the country to the foreigner has been until very recently like a clean slate with no set expectations. If there are no expectations, then you are judged on your own merits, not on how well you fit with expectations. It is a bit puzzling to me that the Spaniards themselves have been so ready to accept the new basque cuisine first and the Adria wave later. My guess here is that while Italians will never accept any claim of superiority of French cuisine and so have never, for example, embraced a chef trained in France like Gualtiero Marchesi, the Spanish public has been more ready to embrace French-trained chefs in the Basque country. This set-up a mentality of acceptance of high-end dining in the early 80s that has made Ferran Adria possible in the 90s.

Francesco

←

Given what you say above don't you think it would be a good idea to actually play to our strengths instead of leaving our (mainly) rural traditions outside the room while we dine at the High Table of culinary art?

[francesco]

Alberto,

I was trying to be provocative on purpose and I fully agree that what you suggest is probably the sensible way out for any chef in Italy. What I am doing here is being sorry about the fact that Italian cooking is pigeonholed, more like a rant than a call to change, because I realize than change, restaurants being businesses, cannot be forced against the current demand too much.

Having said that, let's look at what happens to the "creative" chefs in our country. Davide Scabin has received pretty much unanimous praise from all the sources I have seen, including many in the forum. Nevertheless, if you want to try his creative menu, you have to make a reservation a day in advance because he is very worried that otherwise he would lose the average customer. Thus, some people who don't know about the advance reservation thing, go expecting culinary fireworks and find instead a very well prepared traditional cuisine. Nobody in Spain has to do that. So much for the Italian clientele.

Similarly, consider how they look abroad at our creative restaurants. Most of them are literally off the map: nobody talks about Scabin, Cedroni, Bottura and the like. I am pretty sure e-gullet is the *one* place where this occurs. Gianfranco Vissani is considered by many to be one of the top 2-3 chefs in Italy and he is not even near being so avant-garde as some chefs abroad. Yet, until my recent visit, nobody on this forum had visited his restaurant. His restaurant is close to the A1 motorway, not very far from Rome, in the middle of the "new Tuscany" and close to two beautiful and popular Italian art towns like Todi and Orvieto.

You begin to understand why his son tells you that they almost never see Americans in the restaurant when you read that Patricia Wells, one of the most influential gastronomic critics, has this to say about him:

While the Umbrian Gianfranco Vissani is commonly hailed as one of the top chefs in Italy, I found the food at Vissani, along route 448 between Todi and Baschi, inexcusably self-indulgent and a major affront to good taste and judgment. It is impossible to imagine any sane diner seeking satisfaction in fatty morsels of chicken set adrift in a greasy Gorgonzola soup; tough, lukewarm duck breast supported by a gluey mound of ravioli filled with bits of undercooked artichokes, or a tepee of tepid risotto camouflaged by strips of eggplant as tough as shoe leather. Service and setting are charmless, the wine list a jumble, prices very likely the highest in Italy. Lunch for two can easily run 600,000 lire ($380), without wine. The sheer amount of food that is inevitably wasted (no less than a dozen silly breads, flavored with everything from foie gras to peanuts) should make chef Vissani hang his head in shame.

link to full article

Even before I ever visited the restaurant I knew this was patronizing in the extreme. Most Italian critics think he is great, but Patricia is happy to show us what a phoney he is. I found the comment about the amount of food wasted with regard to the bread particularly egregious: at Marc Veyrat's restaurant I remember a bread cart that had to be rolled by two waiters and which would have easily contained 20-30 kilos of bread for about 20-30 diners that evening. And yes, the was a fois-gras bread (which is common in these restaurants). Did she or anyone else ever comment negatively about this?

At the time of her writing, there were probably 3 three star restaurants in Italy and at least 20 two stars. She chooses to recommend one 2-star, one 1-star and one no-star restaurant out of all Italian restaurants, and none of these would figure in an Italian top-20 list.

It's a bit like a critic going to France and recommending Pic, Benoit in Paris and Oustau de Baumaniere out of the whole country. Fine restaurants all of them, but if Patricia Wells had ever done anything like this, she would have lost all credentials. She's talking about Italy, though, and here not doing her homework seems to have paid off because she was taken seriously and Da Fiore, a place that nobody in Italy considers anything above "good", became and is one of the most popular restaurants with foreigners in the country.

Francesco

[albiston]

Francesco,

nice to know you were trying to be provocative, I was trying too. Were I a cook or restaurant owner I'd probably find everything I've written before a bit too tight for my taste; I was being more sensible than I would ever be in real life.

You make some very good points on creative cooking in Italy, which I mostly share, so I'll not add much to your last comment. Only one or two notes.

Davide Scabin has received pretty much unanimous praise from all the sources I have seen, including many in the forum. Nevertheless, if you want to try his creative menu, you have to make a reservation a day in advance because he is very worried that otherwise he would lose the average customer. Thus, some people who don't know about the advance reservation thing, go expecting culinary fireworks and find instead a very well prepared traditional cuisine.

According to the last things I heard Scabin's creative menu is now available without previous reservation. Probably there are now enough people who want to dine at Combal.0 to try this menu, to make the reservation superfluous. It would seem things are changing.

Similarly, consider how they look abroad at our creative restaurants. Most of them are literally off the map: nobody talks about Scabin, Cedroni, Bottura and the like. I am pretty sure e-gullet is the *one* place where this occurs.

That is not exactly true, and an easy mistake to make, since we tend to consider the English speaking press today as THE international one. Both Scabin and Cedroni have been on the cover of the German Feinschmecker magazine, probably the top restaurant magazine here in Germany, and had articles dedicated to them. Admittedly this publication has a clear affinity for creative and haute cuisine and demonstrates a good amount of prejudice when talking about simpler or more traditional Italian restaurants. Nonetheless you're right saying that these cooks are pretty much off the map when it comes to the largest part of the food/wine tourists visiting Italy.

Thanks for finding the Patricia Wells article, it is, how to put it... interesting to say the least, especially when compared to her French reviews. I think that reading the full article, the introductory part to Marchesi in particular, pretty much shows what her bias is. The part about Vissani's bread was startling for me: I've never been there, but know a few people who have, and absolutely everyone, even those who deeply disliked Vissani's cooking, loved his bread. But who knows, maybe Ms Wells thinks Veyrat should "hang his head in shame" too for his "silly breads".

[albiston]

A few days ago I recieved my monthly copy of Gambero Rosso Magazine and the first thing that hit my eye was the monthly food editorial on Trattorie vs. Ristoranti. I thought the content of the article might be of interest of those who took part to this discussion.

I'd like to thank Gambero Rosso's co-Editor in Chief, and author, Stefano Bonilli for the kind permission to translate and republish some excrepts of the editorial here on eGullet.

Is Italy the land of Trattorie? For some foreign onlookers it is so: to their eyes France and the French are “The Restaurant”, the great chefs, the essence of haute cuisine; Spain has become the motherland of great creativity and design. Italy on the other hand, remains for them the land of trattorie, rustic food, noisy tables, and abundant food.

Being honest, one has to admit this is a rather realistic representation of the real feeling of a part of the Italian population. A transversal representation, which does not counterpoise the less well off to a cultured and food conscious bourgeoisie; it pictures a deep feeling noticeable in every layer of our society.

.....

Today we have two cuisines, equally strong and while apparently one the prolongation of the other, actually set against each other: on one hand the cuisine of our traditions, the warm, amniotic part common to all of us. On the other the cuisine of the last thirty years, the cerebral, educated, intelligent part but yet not immediate in our taste memory. Sure, many of us love the latter and does not reject the cuisine of the home cooks, yet the great majority (often a silent one) eats “forward” while looking behind, to memories and the often idealized tastes of our tradition. This two-way feeling is reflected in mass behaviors, shines through publicity, can be heard while walking around town or traveling by bus. Trattoria vs. Ristorante, especially in times of crisis: memory against educated reason, taste and tummy against knowledge and high culture.

.....

[DeirdreStraughan]

In times of economic crisis, the wallet also comes into it.