A Chat with Todd Kliman

[Todd Kliman]

Todd,

Obviously you've met with and interviewed a lot of chefs and RESTAURATEURS.

Is there going to be a point where you go out dining in disguise?

The big Phyllis Richman floppy hat kinda thing? If you could pick any name to have for a fake AMEX card, what would it be? I won't tell anyone.

The nom de manger that my good friend Matt proposed for my real AMEX card, which is also my fake AMEX card, if you catch my drift, was: Gus Tattori. I rejected it, but I’ve gotta say – people are a lot more tone deaf than I gave them credit for.

As for this business about disguises … The role I’ve created for myself – being a critic but also being out and about – is obviously a tricky one, practically speaking. I’m not sure I’ll be able to manage that, say, a year from now, but at the same time, if I can’t wear both hats it’s not going to be the same, I’m not going to have the freedom I want and need. And freedom is the thing.

Being recognized, and it’s only happened a few times in my case, so far as I can tell, is only ever an issue when it comes to service. In other words, there is just SOOOO much more of it than there might be otherwise. And that’s telling. And awkard. And – sometimes – laughable. I don’t think that, for the most part, the dishes themselves are going to be affected. A kitchen just doesn’t shed its ingrained habits like that. And if you ever were to sit in on a media event or some other p.r.-driven occasion, where the kitchen has been instructed well in advance to prepare a multi-course feast for a bunch of highly discriminating palates, you’d be surprised, I think, to find just how much of the food is middling.

When I eat out, I eat anonymously. It’s funny to me, actually, how I can go from being fussed over at a press function one week and then, a week or two or three later, be ignored or dismissed as if I had wandered in off the street to some private, members-only club.

Re: the get-up … I couldn’t see myself going somewhere in disguise, but not because I think it’s silly. In fact, I’ve got a number of things going through my head that are just as silly, if not sillier, that I’m planning to spring in the coming months. Silliness, mind you, in the service of seriousness.

[Todd Kliman]

Mssr. Kliman;

A few questions, just to get to know you better.

Bad Brains or Minor Threat?

Sette or Two Amy's?

Derrick (Palena) or Jarad (Nectar)?

Chess or backgammon?

Thomas Keller or Gordon Ramsay?

Ricard or Sambuca?

Bouchon or Bistro Jeanty?

Chambolle Musigny or Russian River?

Cats or dogs?

Ladies WITH glasses or ladies WITHOUT glasses?

It's quite a pleasure having you join us. I know it's not the Restaurant Eve employment application, but the answers to these questions will be held close to my heart.

Somebody’s a Napaphile.

As I said before, I don’t like lists. Nor am I a fan of norming exercises.

And having been burned before – seeing something I’d written (in private, and off the cuff) ending up in print as though it had been offered up as an endorsement, I’m going to have to beg off certain of these questions.

But, yeah, I like Keller, I like Sambuca, I like Russian River, I like backgammon … And women with glasses, absolutely.

Minor Threat’s a homegrown thing, and I like that, but I’ve never been much for the adolescent whiteboy rage thing.

[Todd Kliman]

Todd --

As a former big-time restaurant reviewer myself (surely you're familiar my with dime-a-word work for The Hill Rag), I've always wondered, how is your budget set?  Can you, say, spend a couple of weeks hunting the best hamburger or spring rolls, and then use the money you saved to review Laboratorio -- obviously, you'd have to try it a couple of times - or Michel Richard's Citronelle? Or do they cap your budget on a weekly basis?  Do they give you the evil eye if you have more than two drinks?  How many guests?

It’s a balance, and actually, that’s the way I like to eat, anyway. So it’s as much a function of aesthetics as it is of necessity. And yeah, the last time I was at Citronelle, for dinner, I followed up with lunch at a taqueria.

My feeling about drinks is that anymore than two and I’m not really focusing on the task at hand – the gathering of detail about each and every dish, the eavesdropping that is an absolute professional necessity, the subtle testing of the waitstaff. If I’m having more than two drinks, I’m indulging in my own pleasure.

I’ve taken out as many as four guests at a time, but I find that four is sometimes too many, it’s a party, and you’re always playing cruise director and trying to assure people’s happiness. Four is a party. And as a result, my ability to concentrate suffers, though I might also be having a very, very good time. There’s so much more to manage with four – this one doesn’t like lentils, that one has some mystery allergy that she just read about in some magazine, someone must – MUST – have the one chocolate dessert that’s on the menu … Of the three visits I make to a place I’m reviewing, I try to set aside one of those for just my lonesome. Eating alone isn’t easy, and some of my happiest moments on this planet have involved breaking bread with a bunch of people and drinking until there’s no more left to be drunk. But I’m a writer, I’m working, and just as with any other piece I’ve ever done, I work best when I work alone, when I can observe and ruminate in private.

[Todd Kliman]

Todd,

Any guilty pleasures that you're embarrassed to admit to?

I confess to having a Wendy's spicy chicken filet this week.

Okay, so I had two.

Do you consider yourself a food critic or a food writer, or a mixture of both? Or maybe you feel that neither term is necessary to describe what you do?

I’m going to take exception here to the whole Puritanical notion that pleasure is sinful or decadent. It’s sinful only when it’s wasteful, or inedible. I don’t feel guilty about food. I love what I love.

So to answer your question – no, there’s nothing I’m embarrassed to admit to.

Not even:

Moonpies. Corn Pops. Applejacks. Froot Loops. (I’ve always loved this shtuff, even though I don’t eat it anymore. Nowadays, it’s oatmeal with lots of fruit and nuts for breakfast – a practical, scrub-the-system consideration as much as anything. OK, I confess – there IS a box of Corn Pops sitting in my kitchen cabinet at the moment. But – ha – I don’t eat them for breakfast. I eat them as a snack, thank you very much – something to munch on while I’m watching the game.) Popeye’s (it’s been years, but still … ). Greasy, thick burgers dunked into a pool of ketchup (this is odd to me, because I’m otherwise a mustard freak.) Gray’s Papaya hot dogs. I have weird, inexplicable peanut butter cravings. Straight out of the jar, with a spoon or with a finger. Little Debbie peanut butter bars (I simply don’t buy them anymore; out of sight, out of mind). The old, beloved Henckel’s foot-high ham or roast beef sandwich "through the garden"; ditto the Chenckelburger. (Does anybody on here remember this place? Sad, so sad).

Should I go on?

[Todd Kliman]

So Todd, how do you keep balance now with this gourmet lifestyle?  Subsidized gym membership? 

Is there any food you can't eat or that your really prefer not eat, but that you find yourself eating anyway these days? 

And if you were to splurge on this very night, and take your wife to a dinner that she'd remember for the rest of her life,  where you go? 

Or do you rather cook at home 'cause you've been out and about so much?

I have multiple gym memberships, for the sake of flexibility. (Subsidized – that’s a good one.)

I’ve also been playing basketball with a friend of mine once a week in a much-more-competitive-league than I’d bargained for. The first week we played, I was still recovering at game-time from a five-course lunch with wine.

I used to go at least once a week, sometimes more, to a friend’s home gym – she and her husband live in a three-story townhouse in the city. But that didn’t last for more than a few months, the arrangement just sort of dying out, in that way that things between busy, urban, neurotic people sometimes do. It dawned on me, later, that it might not look so good – showing up at her house at noon, staying for an hour, and then, soaking with sweat, waving goodbye and calling out, "Next week?"

Foods I prefer not to eat? I can’t think of any. I’ll eat anything. And I’m open to anything. And actually, of all the people I know, I think I have the smallest list of Things I Don’t Care For. I credit my mother and father for that – for cultivating that openness. I ate smoked fish as a baby. I was regularly going out to eat with my parents when I was just a kid – Chinatown for dim sum, Mexican dives, creperies in Georgetown.

I won’t say which area restaurant I’d splurge on – I don’t think it’d be fair, and again, I’m wary of the words carrying more empress than I want. There are a few I could mention off the top of my head, both here and not-here. But really, I think she’d be just as thrilled to have me cook for her. Whenever we’re home, I do the cooking, and I take it seriously. I love it. And I love entertaining. Her birthday’s coming up, and she’s already requested that we eat at home. I’m fine-tuning the menu as we speak.

Edited July 10, 2004 by Todd Kliman (log)

[Todd Kliman]

Do you consider yourself a food critic or a food writer, or a mixture of both? Or maybe you feel that neither term is necessary to describe what you do?

I'm not sure a single catch-all fits. What I consider myself to be, is a writer. And I don't mean that flippantly. When I'm working, I'm not consciously thinking of what my role should or shouldn't be. I'm trying to write as well as I possibly can each and every time out, and satisfy myself, and hope that others, maybe, are satisfied, too. A student of mine at Howard once came up to me after class and said: "I think I get it. You're up there, just trying to have fun, and if we can pick up on anything, then that's great, too." In all the writing I do, and have done, I like the bending and blurring of form. At one time, I think, especially in my creative writing, it was a deliberate choice, a sense of I-have-settled-on-a-style. It's not now. And anyway, having to produce a column every week means relying heavily on instincts, on learned (writing) behavior, whether good or bad. Now, I'm sure it's going to come off sounding to some as if I'm suggesting that this is the absolute best way of doing this, but that's not my intention. It's the absolute best way for me. At this time and place, anyway.

[morela]

What biaes do you think you have as a writer? Maybe from your experinece at Howard or maybe from being a food columnist who is a writer/artist before a gourmand?

What I'm getting at, is how do you think your experience has effected your style of writing, the writing we see each week? Maybe even the subjects on which you choose to focus...

I'm down with the humor and sarcasm, by the way...

it's always been my self-defense.

Edited July 10, 2004 by morela (log)

[morela]

You mention Maragret Cho a lot. Fine, I read three pieces of yours where you mention Cho. Even in an old book review of yours that I pulled up in Lexis Nexis...

Is this because she's in the comedian minority (Korean, etc.) or have you always been a fan? By the way, it's hard for me to believe that there's not a deficit of funny white people.

I think there is!

Edited July 10, 2004 by morela (log)

[morela]

What is your vision of this column over the coming year or two?

I know that's really vague, but you can answer in any which way.

What do the CP honchos have in mind?

Will I regret saying this? There are a few more nice restaurant ads since you've been a regular feature...

But that's not your success.

What is success to you? You said something about freedom.

What, extrinsically, has been your reinforcement? What (or who besides ridiculous me) tells you that what you're doing is unique and important?

Edited July 10, 2004 by morela (log)

[babka]

How do you and your wife cope with job-mandated breaking of bread? When do you get to dish about your days, if not at the dinner table?

[Todd Kliman]

What biaes do you think you have as a writer? Maybe from your experinece at Howard or maybe from being a food columnist who is a writer/artist before a gourmand?

What I'm getting at, is how do you think your experience has effected your style of writing, the writing we see each week? Maybe even the subjects on which you choose to focus...

I'm down with the humor and sarcasm, by the way...

it's always been my self-defense.

Being a writer is an identity. I’ve been writing professionally since I was 15. It’s how I see the world, and how I view myself within that world.

Now, loving food, thinking about food, driving for food, building entire days around food, savoring the specific, sensual details of meals, strategizing a weekends’ worth of eating – this is nothing new to me. I’ve been obsessed with food since as long as I can remember, going back well, well before my first byline. I wrote a food column for my high school paper. In college, it wasn’t beer or anything else that got me going – it was the prospect of finding a great sandwich, or a great slice, or a great piece of pie. And whenever I got a check from a magazine for a piece I did (this was how –

perilously, but gratifyingly, too – I put myself through school) I invariably went out and blew a portion of that on a few restaurants. In grad school, a friend of mine would do an impression that began, "There’s this place with really great sandwiches … "

That’s not what you’re getting at, though.

I can tell you that the writing I value most is one that’s highly subjective and personal. It’s not that I don’t believe it’s possible to aim for objectivity, because I do, but I think there’s something a little cold about the put-upon of neutrality.

Howard was a profound experience for me, and there’s still an awful lot in there for me to continue to sort through and unpack. I think I was always aware of the degree to which culture and identity is shaped by race and class – teaching at Howard wouldn’t have been the attraction it was, otherwise – but being there for seven years as I was honed that awareness to a terrifically thin edge. I went in, drawn by my interest in black thought and culture, ready to immerse myself in a kind of parallel world, and almost naïve to the degree that I would begin to question my whiteness, the privilege of skin, to wonder about the meaning of whiteness itself. There were days, literally, where my reflection in the bathroom mirror was the only white face I saw. I had always known this city was segregated, but now, at Howard, I was living the contradictions, going from the black world to the white and back again. A lot of whites didn’t know what to make of my being there, didn’t know how to talk to me about what they really wanted to talk about. I was surprised by the soft racism of these supposedly well-intentioned, well-educated whites. Around blacks off-campus, I was regarded as down, as a member of the club – a standing that changed, utterly, the moment I walked on campus and became Every(white)man.

It’s hard for me to say how that’s influenced the writing you see in my column. But I will say that, having been there, I’m more disposed than ever to think that noticing, in whatever form it happens to take, is not the problem. Not noticing is the problem. Indifference is the problem. Pretending there is no problem is the problem. Claims of colorblindness, claims of innocence, claims of our mutual commonality … these seem, if not empty to me, then certainly dubious. Noticing is not judging. I’m more interested than ever, I think, in the ways that things are not alike, in the ways that difference drives culture, neighborhoods, etc.

And food to me is about so much more than what is set down before you on the plate. I'm interested in where it's coming from, and why. I'm interested in who's making it, and why. Who's eating it, and why. The processes, the economics, the politics, the cultural implications, these things all interest me a great deal.

Critics in their reviews will generally take in the décor, the setting, the mood of a place, and this kind of notation can be important, depending, of course, on the restaurant. (Sometimes it’s not important. Sometimes it just amounts to a lot of empty, tasteful description.) I would say that I’m equally as interested in going out to eat as a social and a cultural function. Now, that doesn’t mean I’m only interested in that, or that this is what drives my reviews or essay-reviews. Nor does it mean I see the column as a kind of pulpit from which to pontificate. Sometimes, it’s very simple. When I first dropped by Adega sometime last Fall, I knew that not only would I have to describe the physical space itself, but I would have to contextualize the restaurant within its rapidly changing neighborhood. Without that contextualization, the meaning of that place is essentially lost.

[Todd Kliman]

You mention Maragret Cho a lot. Fine, I read three pieces of yours where you mention Cho. Even in an old book review of yours that I pulled up in Lexis Nexis...

Is this because she's in the comedian minority (Korean, etc.) or have you always been a fan? By the way, it's hard for me to believe that there's not a deficit of funny white people.

I think there is!

Three, huh? I wasn’t aware of my (apparent) Cho obsession.

She’s funny – or was funny, anyway. Can’t say I’m as much a fan of her stuff these days. She’s become strident, too conscious of her audience.

[Todd Kliman]

What is your vision of this column over the coming year or two?

I know that's really vague, but you can answer in any which way.

What do the CP honchos have in mind?

Will I regret saying this? There are a few more nice restaurant ads since you've been a regular feature...

But that's not your success.

What is success to you? You said something about freedom.

What, extrinsically, has been your reinforcement? What (or who besides ridiculous me) tells you that what you're doing is unique and important?

I can tell you this: The section will be expanding.

This was the plan all along, even before I arrived. Some of you probably know about the reader participation angle, the website that’s on the verge of going live with several hundreds – nay, thousands – of reader reports.

When my column debuted, the idea was to have a dozen or more short reviews accompany my piece. But there were, ahem, technical snafus.

(This is a big, big project, years in the making.)

In a month or so, those blurbs – short reviews that I’ve been writing over the past year – will finally run alongside the column …

Success to me? Freedom, absolutely, you’re right on with that. Freedom to write what I want, to go where I want, to keep exploring and refining what I do.

That, and piles and piles of cash.

Extrinsically? I’ve gotten some very, very nice emails and letters from people, saying some very, very kind things. But I don’t know that I would call that reinforcement. It’s wonderful, it is, but every week, there is that same horror – the horror of the blank page. And no matter how many times you’ve done it, until you do it again you somehow doubt that it’s at all possible.

[Todd Kliman]

How do you and your wife cope with job-mandated breaking of bread? When do you get to dish about your days, if not at the dinner table?

It’s not easy. A lot of the dishing about our days takes place during what is, for me, "work." And no matter how much I might appear to be enjoying myself – and sometimes not even that; not every meal is a gem, or even most meals – I’m still conscious of the task at hand. The whole time, phrases or entire sentences will be running through my head, I’ll be memorizing stray bits of conversation, and at least once, sometimes twice, I’ll interrupt things to duck into the bathroom to make notes.

I can’ t really complain, since I know how good I have it, yet all the same we’re often in the situation of having to hit a place when we might otherwise – in a former life, that is – have caught a movie or gone to a play or met with friends.

Then there’s the "problem" of my eating out at places, alone or with others, that she’s always wanted to visit. She’s very busy herself, with a raft of students and singing gigs, and it’s difficult, sometimes, to bring everything into alignment.

[morela]

I won’t say which area restaurant I’d splurge on – I don’t think it’d be fair, and again, I’m wary of the words carrying more empress than I want. There are a few I could mention off the top of my head, both here and not-here. But really, I think she’d be just as thrilled to have me cook for her. Whenever we’re home, I do the cooking, and I take it seriously. I love it. And I love entertaining. Her birthday’s coming up, and she’s already requested that we eat at home. I’m fine-tuning the menu as we speak.

Hey, I'm a cancer too!

Does she know what you are making or is it a surprise?

So, what does the finalized menu look like?

Speaking of entertaining, do think people (like, old friends or whoever you might have over) have different expectations of your cooking, etc., now that you write about food and service detail for a living?

[DonRocks]

Todd,

We want gossip! We want dirt!

Name some restaurants, name some names!

We're not letting you out of this interview until you say at least one thing you'll regret later.

[Todd Kliman]

I won’t say which area restaurant I’d splurge on – I don’t think it’d be fair, and again, I’m wary of the words carrying more empress than I want. There are a few I could mention off the top of my head, both here and not-here. But really, I think she’d be just as thrilled to have me cook for her. Whenever we’re home, I do the cooking, and I take it seriously. I love it. And I love entertaining. Her birthday’s coming up, and she’s already requested that we eat at home. I’m fine-tuning the menu as we speak.

Hey, I'm a cancer too!

Does she know what you are making or is it a surprise?

So, what does the finalized menu look like?

Speaking of entertaining, do think people (like, old friends or whoever you might have over) have different expectations of your cooking, etc., now that you write about food and service detail for a living?

And I'm a Cancer, too.

But yeah ... nobody cooks for me anymore. Except my (fearless) mother, a terrific cook.

It's a little like how some people, on finding out that I taught English, would become all knotted up, precious and formal whenever they sent me email. Except my students, some of whom could have used a little knotting up in the things they sometimes sent.

And no, she doesn't know what I'm making. And won't know, right on up until the very first bite ...

[Todd Kliman]

Todd,

We want gossip! We want dirt!

Name some restaurants, name some names!

We're not letting you out of this interview until you say at least one thing you'll regret later.

What, the Puffy story wasn't enough?

To get gossip, you've gotta ask the questions that elicit gossip.

And how do you know I don't already regret something I've said?

[DonRocks]

To get gossip, you've gotta ask the questions that elicit gossip.

I understand, and I certainly wouldn't want this interview to become controversial.

But do you know of any chefs having sex with their employees?

(View the collective reaction of DC area chefs waiting for Todd's reply)

[morela]

So, what would you say are the most overrated restaurants in the area?

How about the most underrated?

Also, how many restaurants did you have to review for the City Paper's reader/rater/sporks guide?

What about places that readers have reviewed already, but you have not, like, say, Nectar? Would they (CP web folks) wait until you review someplace like Nectar, and then post the hi-lights from your dynamite review? Or would you end up writing a short, very straight forward one in the style of a dining guide?

[sara]

Hey Kliman

What restaurant would be better off if the executive chef was replaced? (Ala Rocco's)

Edited July 13, 2004 by sara (log)

[Todd Kliman]

So, what would you say are the most overrated restaurants in the area?

How about the most underrated?

My picks for most underrated would include: Woodlands, Makoto, Myanmar,

Montmartre, Charlie Palmer Steak, Corduroy, Melrose, Jerry's Seafood, Mendocino Grille, Huong Viet, The Reef, The Majestic Cafe.

... and for most overrated would include: Tosca, Equinox, Kinkead's, Yanyu,

Taberna del Alabardero, Tavira, TenPenh, Galileo, Cashion's, Rockland's.

[Todd Kliman]

Hey Kliman

What is this, junior high gym class?

[Todd Kliman]

Also, how many restaurants did you have to review for the City Paper's reader/rater/sporks guide?

What about places that readers have reviewed already, but you have not, like, say, Nectar? Would they (CP web folks) wait until you review someplace like Nectar, and then post the hi-lights from your dynamite review? Or would you end up writing a short, very straight forward one in the style of a dining guide?

I've written a good number of short reviews over the course of the last year -- more, probably, than what you might get from a dining guide. Though I wouldn't say they were written in a dining guide style.

It was a terrific experience -- you've heard of immersion programs for students trying to immerse themselves in a new culture and a new language? It was not unlike that. Exhilarating, and essential. An awful lot of ideas grew out of that period.

The thinking all along (PTB thinking, as apart from TK thinking) was that these short reviews would run alongside the column, as a way of expanding the breadth and depth of restaurant coverage. And that they would be thematically linked -- in one way or another -- with the thrust of the column. Also, on the weeks that I go the essay route, for example, readers would still get some of the stuff they're presumably looking for -- where to go, where not to go, what to get, what not to get.

These are up now, on the CP's website, along with however many restaurant rater reports are currently in the database. All in all, a format not unlike the WP's own restaurant website.

And the short reviews, the PTB tell me, should be in the paper in a month or so.

[sara]

Hey Kliman

What is this, junior high gym class?

My apologies, Professor Kilman. I'll try again.

In a recent thread, some of us got to discussing 'neighborhood restaurants,' the value/meaningfulness or lack thereof of such a title, and why there's been a recent surge in their popularity (there's some disagreement over whether such a surge has occured in DC, or just in other cities). I'd be curious to hear your take on this. I noticed that one of the restaurants on your 'overrated' list is Cashion's---a place I've heard called a 'neighborhood joint' more than once.

Thanks,

Professor Sara