Syrah or Shiraz?

[beans]

IN A remarkable concession to the popularity of New World wines, the French have finally agreed that wine produced in their country’s vineyards can now be labelled with the Australian spelling of one of the most noble grape varieties.

The ministry of agriculture in France says it hopes that by allowing French wine producers to replace the name syrah with the grape’s more widely known Australian name, shiraz, it will make their wines more accessible to UK and other non-French speaking consumers.

The move will be seen by many in the wine industry as an admission by the French that their unique appellation system, which labels wine typical of a specific vineyard, intimidates rather than entices potential buyers and should be replaced by grape variety and the reputation of the producer.

Today's Scotsman's article here.

[clifford]

You know, I was really surpirsed when I found out Fat Bastard Shiraz was from France.

I had previously avoided it, believing it was a shameless marketing ploy by the Aussies with its nam and all. When I discovered it was merely a shameless marketing ploy by the French, I was honestly disappointed.

[Mark Sommelier]

You know, I was really surpirsed when I found out Fat Bastard Shiraz was from France.

I had previously avoided it, believing it was a shameless marketing ploy by the Aussies with its nam and all. When I discovered it was merely a shameless marketing ploy by the French, I was honestly disappointed.

I thought everyone knew that Fat Bastard was French and Old Bastard was Aussie. Someone needs to bottle some Stupid Bastard. I'd drink that!

[slbunge]

Just a small point. Shiraz isn't an 'Australian' spelling. Rather, it is a reference to the city of Shiraz in Iran where, legend has it, the grape variety was first cultivated.

[ctgm]

Just a small point. Shiraz isn't an 'Australian' spelling. Rather, it is a reference to the city of Shiraz in Iran where, legend has it, the grape variety was first cultivated.

I believe that you are right. But what about Muscat, which I think is in Iraq?

[Scott]

You know, I was really surpirsed when I found out Fat Bastard Shiraz was from France.

I had previously avoided it, believing it was a shameless marketing ploy by the Aussies with its nam and all. When I discovered it was merely a shameless marketing ploy by the French, I was honestly disappointed.

I thought everyone knew that Fat Bastard was French and Old Bastard was Aussie. Someone needs to bottle some Stupid Bastard. I'd drink that!

FWIW Mark the original Bastard in OZ,

is an Yarra Valley Chardonnay known as Bastard Hill.

it's been around for years.

[Adam Balic]

Actually it could very well be an Australian spelling. Will the French 'Syrah' is thought to be derived from 'Syracuse' another semi-mythical place of origin, the earliest record of 'Shiraz' grapes in Australia was from 1832 and these where shipped in by James Busby. Busby traveled throught Spain and France and collected vine cuttings that were planted at the Sydney botanical garden site.

In the 1840's the following was written about one of these vines:

"Scyras" (= Syrah = Syracuse) - An excellent grape and promises to be at least equally valuable for red wine as the Verdeilho [sic] is for white. This is the sort said to be chiefly cultivated on the celebrated hill of Hermitage."

It isn't difficult to see how "Scyras" becomes "Shiraz", especially with an Australian accent. It is though that Persian city name story was made to fit the name that was already being used as they sounded the same as there is no rumour of this grape being associated with this city pre-Australia.

[Brad Ballinger]

At first one might read this story and think no big deal, the truly great French wine producers will never cave in. This is for the vin de pays and vin de table wines that are sold at price points to attract John and Jane Q. Public. But this is indeed significant for a couple of reasons.

1. Even those French producers which label wines by varietal use the French root names for the grapes. Granted, nearly everyone else does, too, with the exception of some German, Italian, and Spanish producers. But for France to change Syrah to Shiraz is really saying something, and is an acknowledgement to Australia's huge success with its shiraz wines. First some California producers changed from syrah to shiraz, and now France.

2. Depending on how successful this move is, it could open the door to more varietal labeling in general, and possibly at the AC level. If that happens, and it will still be slow in happening, you can start to kiss the concept of terroir goodbye. The wines may still show terroir, but people will be buying on producer and grape variety first.

3. The point about declining world market share for French wines is a valid one. The wine industry at large may have contributed to this. As the world on the whole becomes more interested in wine and buys more wine, most of that new wealth/new share is coming from New World countries, not Old World ones. So producers around the world, if they wish to gain more share in the New World markets, will need to package wines that will sell there -- especially as the conglomerations start to grow). We see this already with the style of the wines and the artwork of some of the labels. The actual words on the labels will also begin to play a more significant role. Most of my cellar is European, and wines that don't have the grape variety named on the label. When I pour one for friends, invariably the first question is "What grape is this?" They may like the wine, but they may also be hard-wired to goto the store and ask for a syrah (maybe soon shiraz) wine than for a Hermitage.

[Adam Balic]

I'm not sure that it will be that dramatic. Alsace seems to cope with the concept of terroir and some information on the grape varieties. It is even possible that some new world regions, even Australian Shiraz have some aspect of terroir in their make-up.

[Brad Ballinger]

I'm not sure that it will be that dramatic. Alsace seems to cope with the concept of terroir and some information on the grape varieties. It is even possible that some new world regions, even Australian Shiraz have some aspect of terroir in their make-up.

A couple of reactions about Alsace. You make a valid point, of course, primarily because different grape varieties can be used and the wines can all be legally labeled "Alsace." But I don't hear as many people discussing the crus of Hengst, Goldert, Rangen de Thann, etc., as much as they discuss the producers or the grapes. Compared to Burgundy or Bordeaux, I still hear more discussion about village and vineyard than producer. But it could just be me and the people I hang out with.

Another Alsace phenomenon (and we'll have to see how it plays out) is trying to get under way with Marcel Deiss, labeling wines by vineyard and including all varieties grown in the vineyard in the finished product. Hence, no grape variety listed at all. As far as I know, he's the only one doing it right now.

I don't disagree that some new world wines may have elements of terroir, even consistent from vintage to vintage, in their makeup. I'm just not sure it's the chief marketing strategy or selling point for those wines. Or that many seriously choose between McLaren Vale and Hunter Valley, for example.

Even so, I probably overreached in using the word dramatic. This is going to be a transition (if it ever happens) that will take years, maybe decades.

[Adam Balic]

Well obviously, it is a case of 'historical reasons' for the distictions between Alsace, Burgundy etc labeling. But, seriously I doubt that this will effect the top end very much. I can see Macon whites being labeled as "Chardonnay" (grape variety no the Macon wine tourist village), this may even be sensible if they are to complete on a world market. But I dount that Montrachet will follow suit for instance.

If somebody was expecting a McLaren Vale Shiraz and bought a Hunter, they would be i for a serious shock and this would simply demostrates a poor understanding of what they were buying. More people are drinking wine down and this is always going to happen, irrespective of labelling. How many people have bought some shite £3 'Claret' from a UK supermarket expecting it to be a great Bordeaux? Many, many I imagine.

[Brad Ballinger]

If somebody was expecting a McLaren Vale Shiraz and bought a Hunter, they would be in for a serious shock and this would simply demostrates a poor understanding of what they were buying.

I think we're in agreement. You and I, and probably many people reading the posts on this forum, strive to understand more about what we're buying. But we may want to understand a great deal more than most of the wine-buying public. It's not that they don't want to understand, they do. But their need to understand may not go beyond a certain point, which is perfectly all right. Someimtes I wish mine didn't.

Edited for one grammatical error (I left the other ones alone )

Edited March 18, 2004 by Brad Ballinger (log)

[slbunge]

Actually it could very well be an Australian spelling. Will the French 'Syrah' is thought to be derived from 'Syracuse' another semi-mythical place of origin, the earliest record of 'Shiraz' grapes in Australia was from 1832 and these where shipped in by James Busby. Busby traveled throught Spain and France and collected vine cuttings that were planted at the Sydney botanical garden site.

In the 1840's the following was written about one of these vines:

"Scyras" (= Syrah = Syracuse) - An excellent grape and promises to be at least equally valuable for red wine as the Verdeilho [sic] is for white. This is the sort said to be chiefly cultivated on the celebrated hill of Hermitage."

It isn't difficult to see how "Scyras" becomes "Shiraz", especially with an Australian accent. It is though that Persian city name story was made to fit the name that was already being used as they sounded the same as there is no rumour of this grape being associated with this city pre-Australia.

Interesting story. Every hit I got when I googled about Shiraz in Iran seemed to be written as if the attribution 'home of the Shiraz grape' was in question.

[Adam Balic]

Also genetic analysis indicates that Syrah/Shiraz's parent vines are the Dureza and Mondeuse blanche varieties, both French in origin, so even further away from Persia and the crusades.