Pacific NW Heretic

[Wilson]

I lived here for a couple years in the mid-'90s and just returned to Seattle, and am refamiliarizing myself with many things. Including the outrageous hoppiness of Pac NW craft ale, and the conformity of regional craft brewers to the notion that Bitter Is Better. I find the beers here to be well-made, but tremendously unbalanced toward hops, which I've always attributed to the fact that the region is a major hops producer.

What I can't quite understand, though, is why with all the craft brewers around here they all seem to produce a single style, i.e., American pale ale along with the occasional hefeweizen and stout. Where's the Pilsner lager? What about just plain balanced bitter in, say, the style of arguably the best ale in the world, the cream of Manchester, Boddington's Ale?

I wonder if there isn't a big influence of groupthink among Pac NW brewers. Do they think that Bitter Is Better is so essential to this region that nothing else can be considered good beer? Could it be that they've trained the craft beer consumers here (all 5% of the stagnant market) to expect to be slammed in the forehead by a bolt of bitter? Is malt too expensive?

Let the debate begin!

[Wilson]

p.s.: I was characterized on another forum, where I introduced this subject, as not liking hops. Not so. I'm a big Boddie's drinker and that ought to say it all with respect to hops. Someone also posted that Pilsner is characterized by a strong hops taste and no sweetness.

Could have fooled both me and the Beer Judge Certification Program Style Guide, which says this about Bohemian Pilsner:

Flavor:

Rich, complex maltiness combined with pronounced soft, rounded bitterness and flavor from Saaz hops. Moderate diacetyl acceptable. Bitterness is prominent but never harsh, and does not linger: The aftertaste is balanced between malt and hops. Clean, no fruitiness or esters.

[Wilson]

Thus, my complaint isn't that Pac NW ale is bitter, but that it is harshly bitter to the point of being unbalanced and even monochronomatic. They're trying so hard not to be Budweiser that they've become just as boring but in a different way? Maybe this is part of the reason the craft brewers have hit a glass ceiling?

[jsolomon]

When I visited there several years ago, I thought that the reason for that was the prominence of charbucks coffee around there. It kind of gives one a taste for the bitter...

[malarkey]

What about just plain balanced bitter in, say, the style of arguably the best ale in the world, the cream of Manchester, Boddington's Ale?

Have you tried Hale's Cream Ale? Its very much like Boddington's.

I'll agree that some of the PNW ales are pretty much just a cascade hop bomb, but we do have a huge variety of beer styles available both here and in Oregon. What about Deschutes Black Butte Porter?

Awhile back Elysian had a Bock, a Maibock, a German style Helles, and a Tripel on tap. Hardly typical PNW ales.

Depending on when you catch them, Big Time has a couple of Rye's they brew, along with a bunch of Belgians and some German style wheat beers. They also do a Pilsner, a maibock, a couple of different stouts and even an Australian ale.

Leavenworth used to make a really kick-ass dunkelweizen, but that was years ago before they lost their very talented brewer. I think they still brew the dunkel but its nowhere near the same beer as it used to be. I miss that one *sniff*

Not to mention all the barleywines out now...

[Wilson]

I'll give Hale's Cream Ale a try, and I will look for the Big Time. Thanks for the ideas. I think Deschutes is the best brewer in the Pac NW, and I'm a real fan of their Obsidian Stout. Yet I think their Obsidian Stout and the Porter are still unbalanced. Especially the Porter. It shouldn't be nearly as ragged as it is. I guess these things wouldn't bug me as much as they do if there didn't seem to be so much of the same beer floating around under different labels. Chalk it up to the human herding instinct, I guess.

If you're ever out in Wisconsin you ought to try some of the beers from Capitol Brewing, especially their Gartenbrau. I know some of the people at Capitol, and they view the Pac NW brewers as a bunch of hopheads. O.K., I'm exaggerating for effect, but you know what I mean.

Edited January 30, 2004 by Wilson (log)

[malarkey]

I know some of the people at Capitol, and they view the Pac NW brewers as a bunch of hopheads.

so... is that a bad thing?! LOL

[malarkey]

I think Deschutes is the best brewer in the Pac NW, and I'm a real fan of their Obsidian Stout.

I think Deschutes and Bridgeport are up there among the best for bottled beers.

I think the very best PNW beers never see a bottle. IMO of course

[Schielke]

I think this seems to be the case is because that style of ale has been the premier beer for each micro even though they make plenty of other interesting beers.

[malarkey]

yep, I think your right. I think the typical NW ale is the bread winner for a lot of breweries, so that's why they make 'em.

Schielke is my friend because he always brings Diamond Knot to egullet parties when I ask him to

[Wilson]

Well, I don't really hang out in taverns but if you can suggest one with good food and that has some good Pac NW beers on tap I'll give it a shot. Thus far, when I've been in taverns here, i.e., the Triangle in Fremont or the bar at El Camino, what's on tap is another one of those hop-laden, ultra bitter Pac NW ales with their characteristic lemon-sucking astringency. If you've got some on-tap ideas off of that track, I'm interested.

Edited January 30, 2004 by Wilson (log)

[Schielke]

For an amazing selection of bottled beers, go check out Bottleworks in Wallingford on 45th. The guys there will have your remedy

Ben

[rooberu]

I don't know if you'll find it too "hoppy", but Maritime Pacific makes an excellent lager called Portage Bay Pilsner.

Not sure if you can find it in bottles. They had it on tap down here in Olympia last summer and I drank gallons of it.

check Maritime Pacific for details.

[Wilson]

These are all really good suggestions and I appreciate them. All things considered, I'd rather drink the local brew if I can find stuff to my taste.

[tighe]

Pyramid has its detractors, but I really like the Draft Pale Ale (DPA) for a more lightly hopped beer. I believe its only available at the brewery or in a keg. For pub grub, I think Pryamid does a solid job.

[Wilson]

I just got a six-pack of Pyramid's Coastline pilsner lager and am not too impressed. They did well with respect to restraining the hops, but it's as if they didn't replace the lost flavor with a counterweight, i.e., more sweetness from malt. I haven't been able to find Hale's cream ale yet. Not even Larry's on Queen Anne carries it. But they do carry several other Pac NW pilsners, so once I'm finished with the Coastline I'll keep looking.

[malarkey]

you won't find Hale's Cream Ale in a bottle. Its nitro tap only.

[Wilson]

It you can't buy it in a bottle then it doesn't really exist. I was at Larry's supermarket on Queen Anne in Seattle today, and other than Pyrmaid Coastline (an o.k. pilsner but nothing to write home about) and a $3.50 22-oz. bottle Zephryus pilsner from Elysian, a brewpub in Seattle, the Pac NW was represented by only the usual selection of hyper-bitter ale.

Gordon Biersch Marzen, from California, and Anchor Steam, also from California, where the only pilsners available in six packs. I got a six-pack of Gordon Biersch Marzen and really enjoyed it. This was on the recommendation of my friend from Capital Brewing, who said that Anchor was o.k. but nothing terribly special. After a couple bottles of the GB Marzen I could see what he was talking about. A wonderfully balanced pilsner beer.

Sure, maybe I can find Hale's cream ale in a bar. If I find it, I will try it and do so with an open mind. After all, I would really rather buy local brew. But so far, I haven't found much out there to alter my prior opinion that the Pacific NW brewers are producing a monoculture of outrageously bitter brews, good Hefeweizen (a summer brew) and the occasional uber-specialty Belgian style this or that.

I look at this situation and wonder: Why are they so conformist? The Pac NW craft brewers are beating each others' brains out with the same ultra-bitter ales while they ignore a significant market for a different, more balanced pilsner lager. I don't get it, other than to figure that it's just another case of group-think in action. Pac NW brewers: You need to think outside of your current box. You're missing a whole wide world out there. Really.

Trust me, this is friendly criticism. Might not sound that way, but I want you to succeed.

Edited February 8, 2004 by Wilson (log)

[tighe]

It you can't buy it in a bottle then it doesn't really exist.

Interesting....usually I think that if I have to drink it from a bottle, then its probably not worth my time.

I got a six-pack of Gordon Biersch Marzen and really enjoyed it.

I've never had anything from GB that rose above swill, frankly.

But so far, I haven't found much out there to alter my prior opinion that the Pacific NW brewers are producing a monoculture of outrageously bitter brews, good Hefeweizen (a summer brew) and the occasional uber-specialty Belgian style this or that.

As much as I'd love to respond to this statement, I can't think of anything that won't sound even more condescending that what I've already said...

Edited February 8, 2004 by tighe (log)

[malarkey]

It you can't buy it in a bottle then it doesn't really exist.

huh?! er...maybe you need to think outside of your box in order to sample what the PNW really offers.

It's interesting to me that you quote the Beer Judge Style Guide and then you say Widmer's Hefe is one of your favorite NW beers, IMO a really poor example of a Hefe and NOT true to style. If you want to try a great Hefe, haul your ass up to Mukilteo and have Diamond Knot's Hefeweizen. But then again, it can't be found in a bottle, so I guess it doesn't exist LOL

[Lew_Bryson]

Wilson, my man, I'm with you...on most of this.

I spent six days in Portland, OR, in 2001. It was great, fantastic for beer. I was swimming in IPAs, porters, pale ales, and ambers. But man, by the fifth day I was absolutely jonesing for a good lager, an ale that was under 6% ABV or 40 IBU.

YES, there are exceptions in the PNW, but that's exactly what they are: exceptions. These guys need to balance their beer diet. If I went into a beer bar and all they had were hoppy ales, porters, and "hefeweizens," I wouldn't be back too often. My local usually has three Belgians, two IPAs, a couple stouts, four lagers, a porter, a hefeweizen (a REAL one, and that's where I'm not with you: Widmer/Pyramid/Redhook's hefeweizens are a waste of space in my book), and maybe four other beers of varying styles: Scotch ale, Baltic porter, ESB, what have you.

VARIETY is the spice of our beer life, not hops! Hops are a crutch for people who don't know how to brew properly. Any brewer can throw another bale of hops in the kettle.

Let the war continue.

[tighe]

My local usually has three Belgians, two IPAs, a couple stouts, four lagers, a porter, a hefeweizen...and maybe four other beers of varying styles: Scotch ale, Baltic porter, ESB, what have you.

You've just described the characteristics of any half-way serious beer place in Seattle.

I refuse to accept that beer scene in the PNW is anything less than one of the most diverse and interesting anywhere. If you want to try to judge it by what's available in grocery stores or in the average 5-handle bar, you're simply missing the boat entirely.

[Wilson]

Sorry, but I drink 90%+ of my beer at home. I'd suggest that if the craft brewers aspire to gain more than a toenail clipping's worth of the market here (can we agree that 5% tells us something's the matter??), they'd better make beer you can buy at the store and take home with you. As for Widmer hefeweizen, I'll freely acknowledge that I might be way, way off on that one. I cited what I remember as having liked when I lived here before, but it's been more than five years. The last hefe I had was in a reststop on the Autobahn (yes, they serve beer on the Autobahn, and the German accident fatality rate is one-third of ours), and it was fantastic. I don't remember the name, only that it came in a really big bottle, which was great because the heat wave was going strong.

In any case, I only drink hefe in the summertime and didn't return here until late fall. So my opinions of specific hefes are subject to a lot of revision next summer. Research will be called for! It's a brutal job but I am up for the grueling task!

As for all these styles allegedly available in the PacNW, the unfortunate reality is that most of them are just drowned in hops. Good example is Deschutes Black Butte Porter. It's barely distiguishable from their Obsidian Stout, and it's just horrible by comparison to Guiness in a can after a journey of 8,000 miles. The Scotch ales around here aren't noticeably different from the amber ales or the ESBs, etc., and even Coastline pilsner on fifth taste turns out to be unbalanced toward hops and lacking in sweetness. It's all essentially the same stuff with different names.

Sorry you don't like GB, tighe. I just got my first six-pack of it, and I'd put it right up there with Budvar and Capital Brewing's Gartenbrau, although maybe I'll wind up changing my mind. Maybe there are a couple of issues here, tighe. One being that maybe you're simply more partial to the extremely bitter style out her. PacNW-ers have (tragically) been trained to consider it the apothesis of good beer, which makes craft brews something of a self-limiting product here. The other being that perhaps, like a lot of folks in these parts (and other of the more parochial places I've lived in the West, Midwest and East), you've go batshit whenever someone doesn't genuflect to this or that prevailing regionalism. I find that quaint, in a way.

Look, a good pils ain't going to kill you. Good beer doesn't have to taste like sucking a lemon with a diluted grain alcohol chaser. The uber-bitter ales here seem to be well-made in the sense that they're fresh and high-quality, but I'm finding that about one bottle a week is quite enough. One other comment: Now that it looks like tobacco in bars in on its last legs in the People's Virtuocracy of Puget Sound, any chance that I might have had for drinking in taverns is about to vanish.

Edited February 9, 2004 by Wilson (log)

[tighe]

The other being that perhaps, like a lot of folks in these parts (and other of the more parochial places I've lived in the West, Midwest and East), you've go batshit whenever someone doesn't genuflect to this or that prevailing regionalism. I find that quaint, in a way.

Look, a good pils ain't going to kill you.

I would never deny some predisposition towards knee-jerk regionalism. The fact remains that, with the possible exception of Belgium, I wouldn't trade 'beer scenes' with any place I've been in this country or abroad.

We may have very different ideas of what a 'good pilsner' implies. Having sat in the brewery in Pilsen, drinking Prajdroj (oka Pisner Urquell) from the tap, I can tell you it has a distinct hoppy bite to it. I put a little more stock in their style being the bellweather of pilsner style rather than some self-appointed group of experts in this country.

I suspect that most true craft brewers couldn't give a rip about market share beyond whether or not they can sell enough beer to allow them to make a living doing something they love. I don't think that global beer domination is the goal.

[Wilson]

I suspect that most true craft brewers couldn't give a rip about market share beyond whether or not they can sell enough beer to allow them to make a living doing something they love.  I don't think that global beer domination is the goal.

Well, isn't this the problem? Last time I looked, a bunch of them are either merging or folding. World domination is one thing. 10% of the market in the region that launched specialty coffee is something else. If all they do is talk to each other and their current customers, I don't think most of them stand much chance of suviving, let alone thriving. And that's really unfortunate, because I don't think it would take a whole lot to make them thrive. Making a product that people want to buy might be a good start.

Look at Redhook, for example. Their issue certain hasn't been distribution, not ever since they got an agreement with Budweiser. Look at what happened to them in New Hampshire -- a total bust! Their problem is that their ale is just too damn bitter to have much appeal beyond a very small group in their home region. And I'll freely acknowledge that I come from a pilsner lager heritage, although my very favorite brews are usually on the bitter side. But there's bitter and there's acid eating through your tongue ...

Edited February 9, 2004 by Wilson (log)