Jump to content
  • Welcome to the eG Forums, a service of the eGullet Society for Culinary Arts & Letters. The Society is a 501(c)3 not-for-profit organization dedicated to the advancement of the culinary arts. These advertising-free forums are provided free of charge through donations from Society members. Anyone may read the forums, but to post you must create a free account.

ChefDavid84

Kitchen space requirements

Recommended Posts

Hi, I'm David. I'm in the process of starting a new venture, and need some advice. I'm starting a catering company to cater to 4 golf courses, and hope to expand into other offsite catering after a year or so. I'm looking for a space to put a central kitchen to cook everything, and truck it out from there. We will be serving about 1200 people per weekend. Im having trouble visualizing how big of a kitchen space I'm going to need, and am having trouble finding anything online to help calculate the size of said space. Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated. 
 
Thanks in advance,
 
Chef David
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You need 1500 square feet.

Plus or minus 1000.  :D

 

Much depends on your menu.  Are 1200 people all getting the same plated meal, all at once?  Or is it smaller snacks with more variety that people may or may not buy? - I.e. sit-down banquets for 1200 actual butts in seats, or concessions bar for 1200 potential customers.  What are the max numbers you've done out of previous kitchens?  Can you imagine extrapolating those?  Are you baking a lot of bread and making everything from scratch or using more convenience products,, frozen items, and mixes?

 

As with so many things, it's not the space so much but how you use it.  You'll probably want a decent sized walk-in, but how many ovens and burners do you really need?  You can get a lot done with 12 burners and  couple of ovens.   Do you need a grill and a deep-fryer?  Find some spaces that you think you can afford, then start sketching out equipment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You are very brave. Sounds like you have never worked for someone in the same business before. May be I am wrong.

 

Legal liabilities, Health laws, local building codes, financial and time investments -------------!!!!

 

dcarch

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

PastryGIrl, I have done 2-3000 people events. I work in the catering department of a university. It's about 1200 people over the span of a couple days. I will have a central kitchen, and truck everything to the sites in hotboxes etc. All events are off site. I will not be doing any bread baking, but most everything else is made from scratch. dcarch, I'm not sure what you mean.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, ChefDavid84 said:

dcarch, I'm not sure what you mean.

 

I misunderstood your first post. It sounded as if you had never done this before. I am glad you clarified.

 

Every year, I go to more than one golf outings, some small and some big, some hamburgers and hot dogs, and some fine wines and lobster cocktails.

 

Most golf courses have their own commercial kitchen setups. Have you consider using theirs?

 

Most outings involve breakfast, lunch, dinner, and desserts. Will you be doing all?

 

dcarch

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, ChefDavid84 said:

PastryGIrl, I have done 2-3000 people events. I work in the catering department of a university. It's about 1200 people over the span of a couple days. I will have a central kitchen, and truck everything to the sites in hotboxes etc. All events are off site. I will not be doing any bread baking, but most everything else is made from scratch. dcarch, I'm not sure what you mean.

 

Ok, so how big is your university kitchen?  What would you change?  I thought every chef was constantly planning their dream kitchen!  I know I am :)

 

Are there any commissary kitchens you can get started in?  Because there is also the question of real estate.  What is available & what can you afford?  How far from these customers and your home are you willing to travel every day?  You can't just put a commercial kitchen anywhere ... 

 

2 hours ago, Lisa Shock said:

You might try to visit some other caterers and see what they have, then tweak to your needs. For the most part, everyone under estimates the amount of storage needed for dry goods, and most companies would love to have just one more storeroom.

 

Things always seem to expand to fit the space available - more space means more stuff! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

PastryGirl: the university kitchen was huge. it was the central kitchen for the entire campus. There are no commissary kitchens close. All 4 courses are within 10 miles of each other. I would ideally like to find some warehouse space to convert to a kitchen. Build a large walk in, and install some equipment. I'm in a pretty rural area of Ohio.

 

dcarch: The gentleman who hired me owns all the courses. One of the recently acquired courses has an 80 seat restaurant that I have reopened. Its going very well, but the kitchen space is big enough to serve the restaurant, but little else. They outsourced all of the catering up until now. We are moving it all in house in order to capitalize on all the built in business. 90% of the outings are lunch at the turn, and buffet dinner. We will have a few nicer events with plated dinners, but not much. After this first year, we would like to expand the catering to any and all off site events that come our way, not just golf outings. So, I'm taking the expansion of business into account  when thinking of kitchen size as well. My boss is a very successful man, and will spend whatever we need to in order to make it happen. I was just looking for a little direction from some of my fellow chefs.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, ChefDavid84 said:

My boss is a very successful man, and will spend whatever we need to in order to make it happen.

 

well in that case, the higher end of my previous number :)

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, ChefDavid84 said:

The gentleman who hired me owns all the courses.

 

The Donald T? :D

 

Do you do weddings?

 

dcarch


Edited by dcarch (log)
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You should have a grasp of which equipment, and how much of it, you need in order to execute your menu in a given volume within the necessary time frame. From that, you can look up the square footage of each given piece, add 'em up, and then rough out an allowance for working space in between them. That gives you a rough amount of floor space, give or take. Add in what you need for walk-in coolers and a freezer, and you should be good to go. 

  • Like 1

“What is called sound economics is very often what mirrors the needs of the respectably affluent.” - John Kenneth Galbraith

 

"Not knowing the scope of your own ignorance is part of the human condition...The first rule of the Dunning-Kruger club is you don’t know you’re a member of the Dunning-Kruger club.” - psychologist David Dunning

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I once shared a kitchen with a catering company; the kitchen was the cafeteria  in an office building that once had approximately 500 staff in place and they offered breakfast and lunch.  (we rented it after the building was converted to different use but the kitchen was still operational)  The caterer was a full service catering company; the largest events they did were bag lunches for 1000; and gala dinners for 700.  The kitchen was 3000 square feet; this  included an 8x10 dry storage, the two huge walkins (one cooler, one freezer, both were about 10x8 or  10x10 as I recall.  There were four double stacked convection ovens, a steam kettle, a tilt skillet and a flat top.  We also had a 6 burner range and another 10 burner too.  There were two dish pits; one wall had a huge three bay with very long drainboards and the other part was the automatic dishwasher.  I don't know that this is helpful information for you but I would venture that you need that much space at least.  If these golf courses have buildout capability, you might want to consider adding social events (weddings) at some point in the future; but you will never regret building a bigger kitchen then you think you need if you have the space to expand.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Similar Content

    • By mumkin
      I am in the process of packing up my kitchen—we’re about to demo and remodel—and am sorting about 20 years of accumulated cookery bits into pack/donate/trash categories. Which led me to an article from the expert advisors at Epicurious, “The 9 Kitchen Tools You Need to Replace Every Year,” in which they advocate for an annual household purging of Microplanes, cutting boards, paring knives, dish towels and more (ideally replaced via convenient affiliate links). 
       
      Two questions (at least) arise from this:
      How much cheese and nutmeg grating does it take to dull a Microplane? I haven’t noticed a diminution in mine’s powers, and I’m pretty sure it’s at least decade old. Is there anything that you do replace annually on principle, regardless of its condition?  
      For the record, I don't think they're wrong about sponges.
       
      (Also, Hello! I’ve been away from eGullet for quite a while and am ineligible to post a Welcome Our New Members Thread, but I’m a domestic dabbler in Portland, Ore. Mostly stovetop and sous vide of late, since my ovens have been out of commission for a few years… looking forward to getting my bake on soon).
    • By Trufflenaut
      I need some advice on a safe(ish), easy, and fast way to cut buttermints   I often make buttermints for friends for the holidays, and have run into problems cutting them into bite size pieces before the sugar cools and starts to crystallize too much, so I'm looking for ideas on how to do it more quickly so I can do larger batches.  Note that I am doing this at home and have very little budget, but on the plus side I don't need to end up with perfectly uniform pieces.
       
      The basic process for making the buttermints is:
      1. cook butter and sugar to 260 degrees
      2. pour out onto buttered marble slab and let cool slightly
      3. add color and flavor, and pull like taffy while it cools further
      4. when it just starts to show signs of crystallizing, roll into ropes and cut before it crystallizes much further (I have maybe 2 minutes if I'm lucky to get all the cutting done)
       
      The main problem I run into is that when handling the candy during steps 3 and 4, my hands need to be buttered so the candy doesn't stick to me, and even if I quickly wash my hands, any cutting tool needs to also be buttered to prevent sticking, and basically it's nearly impossible to maintain a good grip on anything.  The second problem is that the candy at this point is hard enough that if I try to snip it with scissors it will tend to slide along the blade instead of getting cut, yet it is still plastic enough that if I pick it up it will tend to sag under its weight and thin out too much while I'm concentrating on getting the scissors to cut right.  My best results so far have been with leaving the candy on the marble and cutting it with a pastry scraper, but pressing down hard enough to cut all the way through with a slippery (due to the aforementioned buttered hands) pastry scraper while trying not to gouge the marble underneath is not particularly fun.  I did try pruning shears once because the curved blade holds the candy in place instead of sliding along the blade, which worked fine except for the fear of lopping off parts of a finger made it too nerve-wracking to be done quickly.
       
      Basically, I'd love to find something that works like this, but for something with the consistency of a hard caramel:
       
       
       
      Any ideas?
      -Trufflenaut
       
    • By chefg
      I have to say designing the Alinea kitchen has been one of the most exciting experiences thus far in the opening of this restaurant. I have been fortunate to have been “raised” in some of the best kitchens in the country. When I arrived at the French Laundry in August 1996 the “new kitchen” had just been completed. Often times you would hear the man talk about the good old days of cooking on a residential range with only one refrigerator and warped out sauté pans with wiggly handles. When I started about 50% of the custom stainless steel was in place. The walls smooth with tile and carpet on the floors. I recall the feeling of anxiety when working for fear that I would dirty up the kitchen, not a common concern for most cooks in commercial kitchens.
      The French Laundry kitchen didn’t stop, it continued to evolve over the four years I was there. I vividly remember the addition of the custom fish/canapé stainless unit. Allowing the poissonier to keep his mise en place in beautiful 1/9 pan rails instead of the ice cube filled fish lugs. Each advancement in technology and ergonomics made the kitchen a more efficient and exacting machine.
      When I returned to the Laundry this past July for the 10th anniversary I was shocked that it had metomorphisized once again. The butcher room was now a sea of custom stainless steel low boys, the pot sink area was expanded, the walk-in moved, and an office added to the corner of the kitchen. The kitchen as I left it in June of 2001 was beautiful and extremely functional, of course it is even more so now. It is the relentless pursuit of detail and concise thought that allows the French Laundry kitchen to be one of the best for cooks to execute their craft…..16 hours a day.
      This was good motivation.
      When it came time to design my kitchen I drew on experiences at Trio, TFL and other kitchens I was familiar with to define the positives and negatives of those designs. We were faced with a 21x 44' rectangle. This space would not allow for my original kitchen design idea of four islands postioned throughout the kitchen, but ultimately gave way for the current design which I think is actually better than the original. But most the important aspect in shaping the final design was the cuisine. Due to the nature of food that we produce a typical layout with common equipment standards and dimensions do not work. Here is where the team drew on our experiences from Trio. By looking at the techniques we utilized we came to several conclusions.
      1. A conventional range was not our main heat source. We do need the flat tops and some open burners for applications such as braising and limited stock work. But our overall use of this piece of equipment is somewhat low. Given that we wanted four open burners and two flat tops with two ovens I began to source out a reliable unit. We settled on the Molteni G230.

      2. Upon analyzing our other heat source needs we decided to place a large focus on induction. By utilizing portable induction burners we are allowed the flexibility to give as much power as needed to a specific station in the kitchen. Obviously induction’s radiant heat is very low, and this allows us to keep the temperature in the kitchen reasonable, yet the power is quite high. 31,000 BTU's of highly controlable heat. But the main reason for choosing this flexible source of heat is the fact that each chef typically employed at least four different cooking applications on a given night. This huge flux in technique and the realization that the menu would change entirely in 8 weeks time meant that we had to design a kitchen that could evolve on a nightly basis. And last, we are very specific with temperatures; induction makes it easier for us to hold a liquid at a predetermined temperature for long periods of time without fluctuation. They operate between 85 and 500 degrees farenheit. We did a great deal of research on the different producers of induction and favored Cooktek. The fact that they are the only U.S manufacturer of commercial induction cooking equipment and located in Chicago made the decision easier. Their innovative approach to induction may prove to be even more exciting as we are already talking about new product development in the future.

      3. a. The complexity of the presentations and a la minute plate-ups of the food require a great deal of surface area devoted to plating. This was one of the most critical factors in determining the basic shape of the kitchen. The size of some of today's popular plates, the amount detail in each composition, coupled with the fact that producing tasting menus vs. ala carte means sometimes large waves of same dish pick ups made it necessary for us to have over 44' of linear plating surface.
      b. Virtually nothing goes vertical above the 36” counter top in the space. All food, plates, equipment, and dry good storage are contained by under counter units. There are a few exceptions such as the infrared salamanders, the three-door refrigerator, and the hood. This allows all the cooks a clear line of communication between each other and the front staff. It allows me an easy sight line to survey the entire kitchen’s progress with a quick glance.
      Given these two points it seemed obvious that we needed to combine the two and create custom pieces that would fulfill both needs. Large spans of plating surfaces with all food and equipment storage below. As you can see we ended up with two 22’ long units. Each function as a pass and under counter storage.
      The building is 21’ wide wall to wall. This allowed us just enough space to create two lines on each exterior wall with their passes forming a 60” corridor for the pick up of plates and finishing of dishes.
      4. We decided to add a station to the kitchen. At Trio we had five including:
      a. pastry
      b. cold garde manger
      c. hot garde manger
      d. fish
      e. meat
      Now that we had more space, and the ability to give each station multiple heat
      sources regardless of their location in the kitchen, we could spread the workload even further. We also realized it doesn’t make much sense to identify each station by classic French Bragade terms. A saucier did not solely cook meat with classic techniques and prepare various traditional stocks and sauces…in fact quite the opposite. This holds true with most of the stations, with the exception of pastry, but even they will have very unconventional techniques, menu placement and involvement in the kitchen systems. We will add a station that will be responsible for a large majority of the one-bite courses both sweet and savory.
      5.Given the size constraints of the building we realized a walk-in would not be possible in the kitchen. If we were to have one it would be in the basement. Having experienced this at Trio we decided to design the kitchen without a walk-in, making up for the space in various lowboy locations and a three-door reach-in. I experienced the walk-in less environment when I worked at Charlie Trotter’s. It is certainly different, but as with most things if done properly it provides a very efficient environment. It works best in situations where fresh products are brought in daily for that days use. And prevents ordering in large quantities. It also provides us with very specific units to house different items. We will utilize the 3-door refrigerator to store the majority of the vegetables and herbs along with some staple mise en place, and items that cannot be made in very small quantities like stocks. Raw meat will have it’s own lowboys as well as fish, dairy, and all frozen products.
      6. At Trio we found ourselves using the salamander a great deal. It is very useful for melting sugar, bringing on transparent qualities in things like fat and cheese, cooking items intensely on only one side, and it is a highly controllable non-direct heat source. Due to the air gap between the foodstuff and the heat elements the cook can control the degree of heat applied to the dish based on the technique he is using. It becomes a very versatile tool in the modern kitchen, so much so that we will install three Sodir infrared salamanders.

      Again, this is to insure that all the cooks have access to all of the techniques in the kitchen. As I said before it is important for our cooks to be able to sauté, simmer, poach, fry, grill, salamander, and freeze at the same time and sometimes for the same dish.
      We have a few unusual pieces of equipment in the kitchen; the most is probably a centrifuge. A few months ago Nick and I were driving home from a design meeting and ended up talking about signature dishes and menu repetition. Of course the black truffle explosion came up and he asked if I would have it on the menu at Alinea. I replied a firm no, but shortly thereafter said I would enjoy updating it. We threw around some tongue and cheek ideas like White Truffle Implosion, and Truffle Explosion 2005….I said it was a goal of mine to make a frozen ball with a liquid center….but then dismissed it as nearly impossible. Within a few minutes he said …”I got it…we need a centrifuge” His explanation was simple, place the desired liquid in a spherical mold and place on the centrifuge…place the whole thing in the freezer. Within days he had one in the test kitchen. I guess this is better suited for the kitchen lab topic that we will be starting in a few weeks…
      We are working on a upload of the kitchen blueprints. When those post I plan on going into more detail about certian aspects of the design. Doing so now would be pointless as the viewer does not have a reference point.
    • By jmacnaughtan
      Hi,
       
      This is a slightly odd question, and I think this is probably the right place for it.
       
      As I mentioned previously, I'm hosting a failed selfie exhibition and will be doing food and drink to match. One thing that I thought would be fun to do, however, was encase a functioning telephone in a set jelly/jell-O and have people call it.  It would be set on vibrate, obviously
       
      Anyway, this is not something I've done before, and the logistics are a bit interesting:
       
      - How can I stop the jelly destroying the electronics? Would a phone survive being vac-sealed?
      - Which proportion of gelatin to water do I need for structural stability, but maximum wobble?
      - Would a larger jelly wobble more satisfyingly?
      - Is a phone's vibrate setting even strong enough to wobble jelly?
      - Fully transparent or coloured?
       
      I don't intend to serve this as food, so food safety and flavour are not an issue.
       
      All suggestions welcome.
    • By Beckykp27
      I'm trying to make bonbons with milk shells for the first time and I'm struggling. When I melt my milk chocolate it is really thick. Is this normal? I'm pretty sure humidity is not an issue. I'm concerned that my shells wont empty out well and I'll be left with no room for ganache. I tried adding some cocoa butter last time but it affected the flavor. 
       
      Disclaimer: I'm using pretty cheap milk chocolate (Ghirardelli) cuz I'm still learning. If you think this is the only issue please let me know.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...