Pumpkin Spirit

[MattJohnson]

A Milwaukee-based distillery just came out with a seasonal pumpkin spirit. Basically, they took a pumpkin ale from a local brewery (Lakefront - great beer - awesome tour - decent fish fry w/ polka band), distilled it, and aged in oak barrels. A friend picked up some bottles and is letting me have one.

They had a couple suggestions for cocktails, but I thought I'd run it by the crew here to see what we can come up with.

I was definitely going to try a manhattan. Any thoughts?

[Chris Amirault]

Lakefront is a great brewery indeed. The house I used to live in is on the Riverwest Stein beer label.

So what're the basics about this spirit? Proof? Flavor? Dry or sweet?

[MattJohnson]

Well, I haven't taken possession of it yet, so I can't give you my impressions, but they say its 90 proof and

What's it taste like? Well, think of a malty whisky with a pumpkin and spice flavor -nutmeg and clove leap out and there's a hint of hops. We were pleasantly surprised by how much pumpkin flavor is retained in the spirit after distillation.

I love that Lakefront has tried to setup a bet with a Phillies brewery to serve each others beer for a week if the other wins. Great guys and gals there.

Edited October 2, 2008 by MattJohnson (log)

[jmfangio]

Interesting...it sounds like the same idea as the Hitachino Kiuchi no Shizuku.

Hard to say what to do with it without having seen, smelled, or tasted it, but my first thought would be to play with it as I've been doing with my Nocino. I've been playing around with a mix of scotch, Nocino, St. Germaine, and orange bitters that I think tastes like fruitcake. Swap this stuff for the Nocino, and perhaps there's a Pumpkin Pie cocktail in here?

[Chris Amirault]

I'd be interested to see how it plays with something quite bitter, like Fernet Branca in a Toronto Cocktail.

[thirtyoneknots]

If it's got enough barrel age to take the edge off, I might never get beyond an Old Fashioned with it.

[bostonapothecary]

If it's got enough barrel age to take the edge off, I might never get beyond an Old Fashioned with it.

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i've been planning to make something like it with malted sweet potatoes and maybe some rye. fresh spirits of character are really cool. a smart cocktail like a simple old fashioned really takes their edge off... i'm looking to find some guidelines about how much hops to substitute for the juniper...

[KatieLoeb]

This is amusing to me only because my bar (in Philadelphia) currently has the Lakefront Pumpkin Lager on draught. I didn't know about the cross-beer wager with Lakefront Brewery. That's awesome.

I hope they'll be serving some Sly Fox or Philadelphia Brewing Company beers in Milwaukee...

As for a cocktail idea, I'd try a pumpkin scented Manhattan perhaps, either rye (for spicier) or bourbon based. Or maybe a Pumpkin Sidecar variant...

Edited October 2, 2008 by KatieLoeb (log)

[MattJohnson]

This is amusing to me only because my bar (in Philadelphia) currently has the Lakefront Pumpkin Lager on draught.  I didn't know about the cross-beer wager with Lakefront Brewery.  That's awesome.

I hope they'll be serving some Sly Fox or Philadelphia Brewing Company beers in Milwaukee...

As for a cocktail idea, I'd try a pumpkin scented Manhattan perhaps, either rye (for spicier) or bourbon based.  Or maybe a Pumpkin Sidecar variant...

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I'm generally not a fan of pumpkin beers, but as they go, Lakefront's is the best I've had. I also really like their Riverwest Stein - hope you'll be seeing that in the Philadelphia Brewing Company tour after the series.

I definitely will go for the manhattan. I was originally just going to use this spirit, but I think you're idea of cutting it with rye is a good one. I'm guessing that balancing the pumpkin is going to be key.

[jneu]

Hey guys, I live in Milwaukee and work pretty closely with the guys at Great Lakes Distillery. They told me they originally wanted to call it Pumpkin Bierschnapps but had difficulty getting approval for the label. It seems the feds didn't like the term "Bierschnapps' so they went with "Seasonal Spirit". They only produced about 1000 bottles so grab them while you can. Really interesting stuff.

Katie, funny you mention rye. Last night I was really wanting a rye old-fashioned, but only had a splash of baby Saz left. I went halfsies with the pumpkin spirit, orange and Angostura. Nice

[KatieLoeb]

jneu:

Glad that worked out. Often, it's better in my head than it is in the glass, believe me. But some things seem somehow meant to be together. Pumpkin flavor and pumpkin spices seem a natural match with rye to me. I worked on a Membrillo Manhattan with quince before, so the pumpkin is even less of a leap...

[bostonapothecary]

jneu:

Glad that worked out.  Often, it's better in my head than it is in the glass, believe me.  But some things seem somehow meant to be together.  Pumpkin flavor and pumpkin spices seem a natural match with rye to me.  I worked on a Membrillo Manhattan with quince before, so the pumpkin is even less of a leap...

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if this avante gard spirit is malted-fermented-distilled pumpkin i wonder how pumkin-y it still tastes... anyone have any tasting notes? i wish i could get my hands on a bottle...

[slkinsey]

Just as a point of clarity: "Malt" is a grain that has been germinated and then dried. There is no possibility of there being such a thing as "malted pumpkin."

To the best of my knowledge, pumpkin beers are not made by mashing the pumpkin in with the grains. Rather, cooked pumpkin and spices are added to the wort during the boiling stage of the process. Once the wort is cooled, the pumpkin debris is held out along with the other trub, yeast is pitched and the beer is brewed as normal.

[wc4572]

I don't know that this spirit would work in this drink, but a place (Dvine Wine Bar, Wexford, PA) near my house has this drink:

Great Pumpkin

Bailey’s Irish Cream, Kahlua Coffee Liquor, Goldschlager, graham cracker crust rim

Decent flavor, although I'm pretty sure they attached the graham cracker crust with lemon juice or something else that made the rim sour.

[bostonapothecary]

Just as a point of clarity:  "Malt" is a grain that has been germinated and then dried.  There is no possibility of there being such a thing as "malted pumpkin."

To the best of my knowledge, pumpkin beers are not made by mashing the pumpkin in with the grains.  Rather, cooked pumpkin and spices are added to the wort during the boiling stage of the process.  Once the wort is cooled, the pumpkin debris is held out along with the other trub, yeast is pitched and the beer is brewed as normal.

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malting is just the transformation of starch to something fermentable. i dont' really know anything about pumpkins but after reading up beer brewers say its not worth the effort to try and convert pumpkin starches to sugars... so it can be done but to negligable effect which is why the process you describe is used...

[KatieLoeb]

I'm generally not a fan of pumpkin beers, but as they go, Lakefront's is the best I've had. I also really like their Riverwest Stein - hope you'll be seeing that in the Philadelphia Brewing Company tour after the series. 

It's looking more like Philly beer in Milwaukee than vice versa right now...

To remain OT I'd like to add:

I've tried to work with pumpkin in the past for seasonal cocktails, but the canned Libby's pumpkin (which I realize isn't fresh, but it is consistent) is so fibrous and nasty it's hard to incorporate into a drink. Even with a paint shaker and a double straining it seems to leave a trail like a slug around the glass that is quite gelatinous and unattractive. I think the only way to incorporate pumpkin into a cocktail is either to "imply" it with pumpkin pie spices or to find some sort of pumpkin flavored delivery system like a liqueur or pumpkin "spirit" like this one that will incorporate completely into the drink. Pumpkin isn't something you want to muddle or shake. It just doesn't work like that...

[slkinsey]

Just as a point of clarity:  "Malt" is a grain that has been germinated and then dried.  There is no possibility of there being such a thing as "malted pumpkin."

malting is just the transformation of starch to something fermentable.

I'm sorry, but this is incorrect. Malting has a very specific meaning, and yours is not it. Malting means the partial germination (to produce amylase enzymes) and drying (to stop the sprouting process) of grains.

Converting starch to sugar is not the same as malting. For example, American six-row barley, when malted, has a very high amount of amylase enzymes. These are the enzymes that are produced as part of germination, and their job is to convert the starch in the seed's endosperm into sugars that the plant will use to sprout. This is why "malting" involves partial germination: to produce those enzymes. Anyway... American six-row barley malt has such a high amount of enzymes that it is enough to convert other starches into sugar beyond just those in the barley grain's endosperm. So, you can make a mash with American six-row barley and throw in some corn (Miller) or rice (Budweiser), and there will be enough enzymes from the barley to convert the starches in the corn or rice into fermentable sugars. This is not "malting" the corn or rice, this is "mashing" the unmalted corn or rice. If you germinate and dry the corn kernels, then you have "malted" corn. Pumpkin, being a gourd and not a grain, can not be malted.

Edited October 3, 2008 by slkinsey (log)

[bostonapothecary]

Just as a point of clarity:  "Malt" is a grain that has been germinated and then dried.  There is no possibility of there being such a thing as "malted pumpkin."

malting is just the transformation of starch to something fermentable.

I'm sorry, but this is incorrect. Malting has a very specific meaning, and yours is not it. Malting means the partial germination (to produce amylase enzymes) and drying (to stop the sprouting process) of grains.

Converting starch to sugar is not the same as malting. For example, American six-row barley, when malted, has a very high amount of amylase enzymes. These are the enzymes that are produced as part of germination, and their job is to convert the starch in the seed's endosperm into sugars that the plant will use to sprout. This is why "malting" involves partial germination: to produce those enzymes. Anyway... American six-row barley malt has such a high amount of enzymes that it is enough to convert other starches into sugar beyond just those in the barley grain's endosperm. So, you can make a mash with American six-row barley and throw in some corn (Miller) or rice (Budweiser), and there will be enough enzymes from the barley to convert the starches in the corn or rice into fermentable sugars. This is not "malting" the corn or rice, this is "mashing" the unmalted corn or rice. If you germinate and dry the corn kernels, then you have "malted" corn. Pumpkin, being a gourd and not a grain, can not be malted.

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my understanding is that many things beyond the common grains used in spirits (corn, rye, barley, wheat) have enough diastatic enzymes to convert their starches to sugars. my experience only really comes from sweet potatoes. you don't have to germinate anything. you simply slowly bake them and you can turn 70+% of their starches to fermentable sugar. i assumed you could get some mileage out of a pumpkin but it doesn't look like there is any economy to their chemistry. pumpkins have no surplus of diastase and barely anything for your six row barley malt to bother with without making a mess of your masher.

[slkinsey]

Sure, it's possible to use other processes to convert starch to sugar. This is most often done, as you observe, by heating (pinas are treated in a smiliar way for making tequila). And, indeed, one uses cooked pumpkin for making pumpkin beer. But this is not "malting." Rather, it's a process commonly referred to as "baking."

But... don't take my word for it.

Edited October 3, 2008 by slkinsey (log)

[MattJohnson]

So I got my hands on the stuff finally. Its not sweet at all. Schnapps like with hits of pumpkin and spice at the finish. Its not nearly as assertive as I thought it would be.

I made the "all hallows eve manhattan" thusly:

1 oz Old Overholt

1 oz Pumpkin Spirit

.5 oz M&R Sweet Vermouth

Healthy dash of Angostura

Flaming orange over the top

Orange twist

Was very tasty, although I'm thinking that the rye overshadowed the pumpkin spice a bit. I'm going to try to adjust the ratio, favoring the pumpkin. Since the angostura has many of the same pumpkin pie flavors, I'm wondering if there is something else I could use to up it a notch as well. Any ideas?

[KatieLoeb]

So I got my hands on the stuff finally.  Its not sweet at all.  Schnapps like with hits of pumpkin and spice at the finish.  Its not nearly as assertive as I thought it would be. 

I made the "all hallows eve manhattan" thusly:

1 oz Old Overholt

1 oz Pumpkin Spirit

.5 oz M&R Sweet Vermouth

Healthy dash of Angostura

Flaming orange over the top

Orange twist

Was very tasty, although I'm thinking that the rye overshadowed the pumpkin spice a bit.  I'm going to try to adjust the ratio, favoring the pumpkin.  Since the angostura has many of the same pumpkin pie flavors, I'm wondering if there is something else I could use to up it a notch as well.  Any ideas?

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In this particular instance it might be best to stick with a very mild bourbon (more of a "blank slate") rather than rye, to let the pumpkin spirit spices shine through rather than get thrown in the shade by the spiciness of the rye. Try it again with Maker's Mark, a nicer sweet vermouth if you have access (I like the Noilly Prat sweet or in a perfect world, Carpano Antica) and Fee Brothers Aromatic bitters or Whiskey Barrel Aged bitters, although the latter are heavy on the Christmas spices and might be a tad too much in this application for the same reason as the rye. Another possibility would be to skip the bitters entirely and use a judicious amount of Punt e Mes for a different take on the drink.

Edited October 6, 2008 by KatieLoeb (log)

[MattJohnson]

Thanks for the ideas. I think you're right suggesting bourbon - wish I had some (I have a hard time keeping it around... its too nice neat). I would like to use nicer vermouth - I use Noilly Prat for my dry vermouth - its just no stores around me carry the small bottles and while I drink regularly, I don't drink enough to use it all so it ends up in the fridge for too long. I tried to ask my store to stock the small bottles, but they didn't seem too eager to accommodate me. They stock quite a bit of nice stuff for decent prices, but they aren't very nice.

Does Carpano Antica last longer than normal vermouth? Its a bit pricey for an every day thing, perhaps I need to have a party and justify it .

If I understand correctly, Punt e Mes is like a vermouth thats got a bitter note to it, right? Hmm, I might try using some Campari instead of the bitters and see if the orange/bitter might give it a kick up.

Its on my list to order the fee brothers sampler pack. The stores around here don't seem to stock anything but Angostura.

Thanks for your help! Its great to have such a great resource to kick around ideas.

[KatieLoeb]

My pleasure Matt. And I completely understand that problem with the bourbon. It's one I have as well.

As for the Carpano Antica, I'd say if you treated it like open wine and kept it refrigerated and transferred it to smaller empty bottles so there was less surface exposure to oxygen it ought to last just fine. It's most definitely worth the cost of admission.

[MattJohnson]

Ok. I adjusted. A bit more pumpkin spirit, a bit less rye. Same sweet vermouth and Campari instead of angostura. Orange garnish. It was muuuch better - I think it was the angostura was overpowering. Pretty balanced with a pumpkin spice slightly bitter finish. Almost can't wait till tomorrow to make another.

I think I'll pick up the Carpano next time I'm at the store.

1.25 oz Lakefront Pumpkin Spirit

.75 oz Rye whiskey

.5 oz sweet vermouth

dash ( ~.25 oz) Campari

Edited October 7, 2008 by MattJohnson (log)

[KatieLoeb]

The Carpano Antica and the Punt e Mes are both made by Carpano. The Punt e Mes is a "vermouth amaro" that has its own applications and the Antica formula is just the best vermouth you'll ever try. It's magical stuff that can be had on its own on the rocks with a twist and be as complex and interesting (or even more so) than the best wine you've ever drunk. Try both if you have access and the budget which allows.