Suvir Saran

This thread about Parsi Cuisine (which uses Vinegar as well) maybe of interest to some.

Perhaps this thread on Souring Agents would be of interest to some.

Kristin, What you mention and cook from Madhur's books are what I and many others I know grew up eating. In the US one is served a relish made of small dice onions that have a pink-red color and a sweet and spicy (dull) taste to them. Not at all like the Pyaaz Ka Laccha you mention or even the Tamatar Pyaaz Ka Kachumbar which you also mention. Wonder where this relish we find in the US got discovered or created...

I always thought it was food coloring and some spices. Never much cared for it.. have been known to enjoy it as Haggis mentions, with papad as a salsa and chip alternative. I always ask for freshly (at least I hope they are) sliced onions and lemon. Make my own onions and maybe some chaat masala. Then I feel I am a true Punjabi... at least that half of me that is Punjabi comes out and is in heaven. The other part of me really misses the Moti Mahal fame Sirke Waalee Piyaaz (pearl onions marinated in vinegar). I make these and keep them at home for when I cook food.... friends from India love the fact that I have these handy..... Always a great condiment to have for most any meal. I have hear some servers tell me this onion relish served in NYC restaurants has its roots in Bengali cooking. Bengali friends I know claim no part of this... Can our Bengali members shed some light on this please... Is it true? Or simply a myth?

Please share with us your variation of this condiment.. maybe the other restaurant chefs and owners can also share theirs... I have always only had the simple vinegar soaked baby (Pearl) onions. They are amazing.

I find myself wondering what people think of the onion relish you often are served in many Indian restaurants in the US. Do people enjoy this relish? Where does it come from? What version of it does your local Indian restaurant serve? Have you ever asked for a recipe?

Kristin, you are being bad, very very bad. Rice Vinegar surely must have come to India with the Chinese. I am sure someone that posts here can enlighten us further. Goan cuisine uses vinegar. The Portugese had settled in Goa. Many dishes from that region have Vinegar. Tandoori meats are often tenderised with Malth Vinegar. Not sure how that came about.... again, someone here could enlighten us about it. Chinese food (what we call Indian Chinese) is hugely popular in India and vinegar is thus very popular. Vinegar goes into dishes served in Chinese restaurants, vinegar with green chiles soaking in it is served as a condiment in Chinese restaurants. Onions soaked in vinegar are served in Indian restaurants serving Northern Indian food. Sindhi Pickles are often made with Vinegar. Vinegar is now easy to find in India... when did it first get popular? I am not sure.

Whilst Tamarind is beautiful and fills in the void in the more high end restaurant, I think Indian food now needs a restaurant/concept that caters to the younger crowd and also can be a neighborhood spot (which caters to old fogies like myself and my friends) that people can go to often and not worry about too much expense. It is that concept that would have longevity and also change how Americans think of Indian food. What should that restaurant be like? It is easy to create spaces like Tamarind (what is difficult is to run them professionally) when one has the money and has a clientele that can afford them. What takes more thought and greater planning is to run a place that can serve good food in an attractive setting, consistently and to great numbers of people daily and at affordable prices. When we have an Indian restaurant that can fill the niche, we would have arrived at a new time and place in the world of Indian restaurants. I would love to see an Indian restaurant that has the kind of bustling business that Spice does on University Place near NYU in NYC. It has a very large clientele that is very young, but whenever I have passed it by, I have also seen neighborhood folk who are there seemingly for a casual meal before doing something else for the evening. Spice never has too many seats empty, always has people waiting to be seated, the restaurant has a nice look, quick turn around and is very very affordable. Certainly it should be making plenty of money. What Spice lacks is good food. I think a smart owner would create a concept catering to a similar group of people and add to this mix good food and consistency. It could well be the new begining of Indian restaurant dining in the US. At least in my humble opinion. And whilst such places thrive, they would have also created large groups of people that have a new awareness of Indian food. These people can then give more business to the restaurants like Tamarind. Not many can afford or care to eat at an Indian restaurant where they could spend a $100 easily and only then really get a sense of having had something wonderful. Whilst I think these restaurants are essential and have a place, they cater to an audience that wants something special for a special occasion. The other restaurant (like Spice) would cater to your average Joe for just about any meal they want to eat outside of the home. If you make the food simple and clean and tasty as it is in the homes or even streets of India, there is no reason why people will not begin to embrace Indian food as a part of their regular dining out option.

Rosa Mexicana is a perfect concept for Indian restaurant folk to look at as a next step. It has everything that would complement the energy, playfulness, vibrancy, layers of flavor, surprising discoveries and the colors that come with Indian cuisine and its culture. Many Indian friends have always wanted to go even if only for drinks to Rosa Mexicana. Drinks and guacamole at RM can be great fun and fulfilling. The food though leaves something to be desired.... But a clever resaturant owner and chef would ensure one has a perfect balance between ambience and food. Tamarind is beautiful but I think we can have Tamarind and a very alive space both co-exist. Why stop where Tamarind created a splash. There is still a long way to go. Coconut Grove failed for many reasons. Not all are because of the chef or the menu. I am told the key element were politics between the people in the front of the house and the partnership. Sad, for if it had succeeded and continued in the path of sharing Southern treasured with us in NYC, we could have very well had our first half way decent restaurant serving dishes other than (Dosas/Idlis and Uthappams) from the Southern part of India. It is a shame it did not last. I was charmed at the meal we had before they opened. The dishes were in the range of good to superb. And it gave me a new promise. JSibley, welcome to the Indian forum. Looking forward to reading more from you.

BBhasin, I think all us Indians make it the way you explain. Like your mother, I would rather use Yogurt or Buttermilk. And it does make a huge difference when making dessertss. And yes phitkari was the choice of Halwais. I am told that is changing in the bigger cities. I throw in several ice cubes (a lot) to stop the milk proteins from getting denatured and tough. This is a simple step that many do not do, and it makes all the difference in making your paneer soft and yet firm. Torakris's method is new to us, but perhaps it works just as well. BBhasin, I bring Dhotis (made of Muslin) from Khadi Gram Udyog in Delhi. I tear these to use as cheese cloths to make my paneer. Do you use Muslin or do you use Cheese cloth in the restaurant? Just curious... In India, one can also buy Stainless Steel Paneer makers. A friend brought me one from India, I have never used it. Does anyone know how the paneer comes out?

It should really not be that long a process. Check the thread we have on Chicken Tikka Masala (Chicken Makhani/Butter Chicken) and you will see how easy it really is. You seem to have all the books needed. And certainly there is always place for more books in ones collection.

Lemon juice is commonly used in India to make paneer. Again, lemon does the same thing to paneer as vinegar. It is just a tad gentler. But like I said before, you only have to worry about this if you are preparing desserts. Otherwise, it hardly matters how you curdle the milk.

Vermont is a beautiful state. Hopefully, in due time, you shall have more Indian restaurants there... I feel Indian food will soon become more popular around the country. Your Pataks and chicken dish sounds wonderful. Believe me all us Indian kids that come here from India, have done the same. You are on the same path as the rest of us. We did post at the same time. Thanks for sharing more about yourself. This forum and eGullet as a site, is only what members such as you make it. Our members are very generous about sharing what they know, they also are very confident about asking what they want to know.... We enjoy the give and take and never feel intimidated. This forum is not unique, but like all other forums, it too has a feel that is its own. Thanks for finding it worthy of your time. Maybe you will find threads and information here that can help you, alongside the book(s) you purchase to enrich your Indian cooking experiences. I am sure no matter what book(s) you get, Monicas or that of hers and others, you shall find a happy place for each of them in your kitchen and your indulgence in the world of Indian cookery. My best wishes are with you for great success in that adventure. As one who enjoys Indian meals at both restaurants and homes, I would give you my two cents worth, please do not expect the recipes you cook from cookbooks to taste exactly like what you are used to from eating at restaurants. Cookbooks could give you recipes for the same dish, but they are the rendering of a particular chef and not meant to mirror what is served in restaurants. They can be similar or close, but will never be the same. You seem like one who already must know this. Forgive me for saying this anyways. All the best with your kitchen adventures with Indian cookery. Cannot wait to read more from you.

Whilst you wait for the coobook you decide to purchase, here are some links to recipes you are looking for. Chicken Tikka Masala Lamb/Goat Thread The above thread will have recipe for Rogan Josh. Saag Paneer Have fun reading these and cooking with them as you wait for your cookbook. Happy cooking to you.. and keep us posted.

Kashmiri Rogan Josh (Lamb Cooked Kashmiri style) * 2 lbs. lamb, cut into 2 inch cubes * 6 oz. ghee (clarified butter) * 1 tsp. sonth (ginger powder) * 1 tbsp. saunf (fennel seeds) * 2 cinnamon sticks * 6 garlic cloves, minced finely * 1 tbsp. kashmiri mirch (kashmiri red pepper powder or cayenne) * 1 tsp. shahi zeera (black cumin seeds) * 6 cardamoms * 6 cloves * 1 tej patta (bay leaf) * 1 tsp. zaafraan (saffron), gently toasted and ground * 1 cup dahee (yogurt) * 1 tsp heeng (asafoetida) * salt to taste Clean, wash and remove all fat from the lamb and set aside. Grind together all the spices in a mortar and pestle or a coffee grinder. Soak saffron in the yogurt and set aside. Heat ghee and add the heeng into it and cook for a few seconds. Add the lamb to this and sear on all sides, frying until well browned. Pour the saffron yogurt mix and fry until all liquid is absorbed. Add a cup and a half of water and the ground spices. Bring the contents of the pan a boil, reduce heat, and simmer, covered, until tender. Uncover and cook until excess liquid is evaporated.

I think you hit the nail in the head when you said: "who's to say I can't buy more than one book?" Absolutely! I think Monicas book will give you an easy introduction to Indian food. And you can always add more cookbooks to your library.. and they could be from other authors who also have great books to their name. You can find a recipe for Saag Paneer on this forum, also for Chicken Tikka Masala. And certainly you can post a request for a Rogan Josh recipe. I am sure you will be obliged by many recipes.. and variations and tips for each. Monica is a wonderful fellow eGulleteer, a passionate Indian cookery writer and cook and her book has charmed many. I have had many on this forum tell me they have enjoyed cooking from her book.

RossyW, welcome to eGullet and also to this Indian forum. Please feel free to ask us any questions you may have about Indian cookery. Whilst cookbooks are certainly a great tool, this forum has a great number of chefs, restaurant owners, Indian cookery experts, cookbook writers, Indian food lovers and home chefs posting in it. You can be rest assured that any querry you post here, will get several educated responses and the likelihood of getting timely help is also great. We, the members of this site and of this forum, enjoy our new members and their posts with a great zeal. It is a learning experience for all of us. We learn as we share. And we learn as we read from others that have had similar but unique experiences about things we all know about. If you do buy Monicas book tonight, I am sure you shall find it enjoyable to hold in your hand soon after you get it delivered. Better yet, you can post querries to her right in this forum, and as you cook with her book, you can also share that experience with the rest of us, and also get Monicas feedback. That could be quite something. Do you not think so? Have you cooked Indian food before? Do you eat it often? What made you think of buying Monica Bhide's book? Thanks for visiting the Indian forum. I hope you find what you are looking for in Monicas book. And I wish you a long and joyous time at eGullet and will look forward to reading your posts. Welcome again.

Rossy, I did not buy my copy, a little bird brought it to my home via US Mail. I know many of our eGullet users have bought her book, and many have said very good things about it across many threads in the Indian forum as also in other related forums or threads. I would certainly encourage you to buy her book. And maybe, you can tell us about your own experience in cooking with it.

When was it? Where was it (restaurant, home or other)? How did it come about? What did you think of it? What did you like most? What did you not enjoy at all? Was it love or hate that first time? How did it change your eating habbits, or has it? Have you ever cooked it at home? Have you introduced it to other non-Indians? What have their first reactions been? What dishes do you think ought to be used for the first introduction to this complex and varied cuisine?

Thanks Kristin!

In India, I believe we use rice vinegar as well. And the best paneer comes from whole milk. I am very sensitive to vinegar and can detect it easily. It annoys me more when I taste dessert made with paneer where vinegar has been used. It spoils the creamy texture of an otherwise splendid dessert. I also find the paneer I use breaking the milk with buttermil or yogurt to be far creamier and tastier. But it is a very small taste difference. And you do use much more yogurt or buttermilk to break milk. Two tablespoons of these would not do the trick. In India we hand the paneer or weigh it down in the manner that you did on your own. We like the paneer to form a mass that can be cubed and used without breaking into crumbs. For desserts, the softer crumbs are what we look for. And then, one hardly weighs the paneer down, if at all.

The recipe for the paneer is in your email now. It is a fool proof recipe. Please make it without any fear. Use half the recipe for the Saag Paneer. If you can measure the half and post here, I shall be indebted to you. Thanks FoodMan!

I am emailing you the recipe for the paneer. Do measure how much I ask for you to use and post it here.. would you please? That would be so great. I do not have a measure for the finished paneer. I shall email you the recipe now.

Torakris, how do you make your paneer?? Care to share the recipe? How does it come out? What is the texture like? DId I read correctly that you are breaking the milk with Vinegar? What do you think of the taste of vinegar in the finished product? Have you tried eating the finished paneer by itself? Does it do something to your mouth that dairy would usually not? Some people can detect paneer made with vinegar easily for a certain sensation it leaves in the palate. Since you are a recent Paneer Maker, I am sure the sensations it has left you with are more alive in your palate than for many others. It would be great if you could share some Paneer notes with us. Please.

Sometimes, when I am in the mood to play with this recipe, I also add petite green peas into the dish. They give a nice texture and also add to the hues of green that the dish presents the diner. When I am adding peas, I add a little more fenugreek into the recipe. A perfect way of balancing the many flavors in the dish.