LPShanet

OK, now I understand the point a little bit better. I still think that if that did play a role in the demise, it had to be a small one compared to what I perceive to be the obvious factors. 1) Most* NYers who can afford to be repeat customers at that price range are an older, stuffier set with very boring expectations. 2) A restaurant with two dining rooms needs to be able to sell PDR, and thats all but impossible when the food is not extremely simple and safe. *Relax, if you're reading this I probably don't mean you. Excuse my noobishness, but what is PDR? (Other than the Physician's Desk Reference.)

That's mostly true, but I think there are exceptions, as noted in my post above. When a restaurant is perceived as being too trendy, and as a spot where people go to be seen rather than to eat "serious" food, then the restaurant's reputation and image as a serious eating destination can be harmed. Even if the food coming out of the kitchen is interesting, skillfully prepared and thought-provoking, the place can still fail if it is seen as a "fluff" destination. So while Tailor may have had an initial influx of cash from the publicity-driven crush, it is possible that the publicity and the resultant crowd actually hurt it in the long run. (This same theory is seen in more obvious ways in nightlife, where the latest trendy lounge may be packed for 6 months due to publicity, but doors close a few months later when the next latest/greatest thing opens. Meanwhile, serious fans of good cocktails probably don't bother with the place, and go to other places that open with less fanfare but more perceived sophistication. Those may last longer despite thinner crowds to start.)

Actually, some would say that WD-50's food is more outlandish than Tailor's was. It certainly isn't less so by any measurable margin. As for the other examples a few posts up (Aldea and Jean Georges), they hardly qualify as this type of cuisine. While Aldea is certainly somewhat modernized compared to its inspirations, it doesn't really aspire to any "molecular" or really experimental techniques, nor are the combinations comparable. And including Jean Georges in the category is an even more major stretch. The fact is that WD-50 is the only successful restaurant in this genre, and it's not clear that its success will sustain it for years into the future. NY just hasn't shown any love for the genre for whatever reasons. In the case of Tailor, I think the thing that most separated it from WD-50 is that it was much trendier than WD-50, and much of the initial press could be perceived as being aimed at the hipster set rather than exclusively at food enthusiasts. WD-50's core supporters are definitely foodies more than trendies, while Tailor wasn't so clearly defined.

Having done both, I think the point would be that TTD was a MUCH higher level of cooking. Add to that the facts that it was a much smaller/quieter room, a much more personal menu and Tom himself was actually at the pass touching every dish and you have a pretty compelling case for reinstating it. There's a big difference between good food in a huge/bustling room being brought to you by competent but green staff, and sitting at one of six or so tables and chatting with Tom as he makes your dinner. I will really miss TTD. I think it's doubtful that Colicchio sees it that way. When he charges $78 for three courses and $125 for a tasting menu, it means that in his own mind Colicchio & Sons is a three-star restaurant. Now, I don't think it is even close to that, and I don't think this week's smackdown from Adam Platt is the last we'll see. But in terms of his own ambitions, I think he sees Colicchio & Sons as a TTD that he can do every day. Colicchio has long understood that he is as much a manager as a chef. Before Colicchio & Sons opened, TTD offered a style of cooking that was not on offer at any of his other places. Obviously there was a premium in the perception that "Celebrity-chef Tom Colicchio personally cooked and plated my food." But Colicchio would tell you that he thinks his team is capable of executing his dishes to his standards, and that if the serving staff is green now, they won't be for long. Again, I am not saying that he is necessarily realistic in his views, only that I am sure that is how he wants things to turn out. Based on everything I've read, I totally agree with you. Colicchio has said as much multiple times in the press. And even in more intimate discussions, he's suggested that his aim at Colicchio & Sons was to do the type of composed food he used to do. Sadly, saying that doesn't make it so. Even if they were operating at a higher level, and the food was more transcendent, I still think there is still no way to make a place with Colicchio & Sons physical parameters do that. I think it's just too big a room, with too many covers to do the kind of cooking in question at the level we're talking about. Not to mention the noise and raucousness that the C&S/Craftsteak room creates, which is inconsistent with 3-star aspirations. That makes Colicchio & Sons a pale substitute for the really special things he was doing at TTD (which were arguably close to 4-star). Personally, I think he'd be better off making it the Ssam Bar to TTD's Ko, and keeping both up, but I'm sure that would put too much on his plate, no pun intended. I believe the TTD and Colicchio & Sons customer are two different people. As is, everyone gets a watered down version of what they really want.

Having done both, I think the point would be that TTD was a MUCH higher level of cooking. Add to that the facts that it was a much smaller/quieter room, a much more personal menu and Tom himself was actually at the pass touching every dish and you have a pretty compelling case for reinstating it. There's a big difference between good food in a huge/bustling room being brought to you by competent but green staff, and sitting at one of six or so tables and chatting with Tom as he makes your dinner. I will really miss TTD.

Well, with anything sashimi, price is related to quality, and bargain raw fish is rarely a real bargain, if you know what I mean. Because the taste is subtle, and best left without too much adulteration, you really notice when the scallop itself isn't the best. That said, the best examples of scallop sashimi I've had in Manhattan are at 15 East, Sushi Yasuda and Ushi Wakamaru. Also really good were Soto and Kyo Ya. Of course, it is dependent on the place having it on a given day, so calling ahead is advised. Other options include Sushi Uo on the LES (which had great live scallop the last time I was there), Shimizu in the West 50's and Jewel Bako (which has improved again of late) . And although it's not exactly cutting edge, the scallop tiradito at Nobu is always a good call. For non-Japanese/traditional versions, you might try Desnuda, or Esca.

I agree that Ssam Bar and Aldea might fit in the category, too. I'd add Degustation to the list as well.

Kyo Ya is REALLY good, but it's definitely a more austere experience in terms of flavor profiles than either Degustation or Ko, due to its traditional Japanese orientation. It's all about ingredient quality rather than rich flavor deveopment. Just so you're prepared.

It is now an event space available for banquets, weddings, cocktail receptions, and corporate events.

Triomphe (44th between 5th and 6th) might be worth a try for French bistro fare.

If you don't mind busting the budget, I'd definitely go with Ko. If you liked Degustation, I think you'll really enjoy the Ko experience. Similar, but elevated.

I think those impossible to get into meals may now be even more impossible to get into. When I went to C & S last week, they said they were discontinuing Tom: Tuesdays so he could focus on the new place. Tom was in the house, although not in the kitchen. They were unsure whether the Tom: Tuesdays would start again eventually.

It's not even close....go to JG. JoJo is a reasonable bistro, as stated above, but nothing special. JG is the best lunch in the city. No comparison.

Out of curiosity, what is the reason you are so adamant about avoiding wearing a jacket? Most of the places that do require them are pretty lenient about what constitutes an acceptable jacket, and I don't find those places necessarily any stuffier than many uptown restaurants that don't require jackets, but tend to have patrons in their biz clothes. I'm surprised to hear that wearing a jacket is a deal breaker for eating a truly spectacular meal. For what it's worth, very few places anywhere (and none of the ones you mention) require ties any more, so that's not an issue. Bob is coming from a business convention in Texas and I from one in Orlando, meeting up for the day in NYC. I don't think either one of us were planning on packing a dress jacket. We are going to MSG right afterwards, to a Rock n Roll concert and well...... We don't want to be mistaken for the yuppies we really are As suggested upthread, I think Corton may be the place for you, too. Great food, and they're not as picky on dress code. Another way to go might be to check out EMP or The Modern.

Having been to Arola's restaurant in Madrid myself, I can tell you that there isn't really anything comparable in New York. While we have a great food scene here, and more good restaurants than almost any other city in the world, modern/molecular cuisine isn't our strong point. So the places in NY that are most comparable to Arola's place in terms of service and extravagance aren't particularly adventurous in terms of their food. And the few places with more forward-leaning food (i.e. WD-50) aren't really trying to offer the same level of experience that the Arolas and Berasateguis of the world offer. However, I think the closest you'll come in NYC may be Corton. It's certainly more flamboyant in terms of service and presentation than WD-50, and while not as cutting edge, definitely offers a modern interpretation of cuisine. It's a really good restaurant, and well worth your checking out. L'atelier will be a little more traditional than Corton, and while delicious, probably less eye opening in terms of adventure.

Out of curiosity, what is the reason you are so adamant about avoiding wearing a jacket? Most of the places that do require them are pretty lenient about what constitutes an acceptable jacket, and I don't find those places necessarily any stuffier than many uptown restaurants that don't require jackets, but tend to have patrons in their biz clothes. I'm surprised to hear that wearing a jacket is a deal breaker for eating a truly spectacular meal. For what it's worth, very few places anywhere (and none of the ones you mention) require ties any more, so that's not an issue.

Both are wonderful, and among my favorites in NYC. And both are certainly quiet enough for pleasant conversation. The main difference is in the presentation. While both offer fairly modern takes on cuisine, there are subtle differences between them that are somewhat difficult to describe accurately (much as it's tough to describe certain differences inherently between painters or musicians). But crudely speaking, the presentations at Corton tend to be a bit more elaborate, and many dishes are composed of multiple parts, sometimes in separate vessels. Meanwhile, L'atelier tends to SEEM a bit simpler, although there is great complexity in doing seemingly simple things well. Neither one would quite fall into the molecular category by any means, but both (and especially Corton) take some cues from that style and incorporate it into the dishes in a way that works without seeming gimmicky. You won't go wrong with either, and if possible go to both! Aside from the extremely solicitous Michelin style service at Per Se, I'd say that both compare quite favorably with it, and you won't be missing out. In fact, some of the dishes at both L'atelier and Corton are more memorable, if only because they're a little less well known and sometimes "newer". Enjoy.

I definitely would lean toward Jean Georges as well. In many ways, I actually like it better than Per Se, though I'm sure some would disagree. I'd also put in a vote for L'atelier de Joel Robuchon, where I've had some great meals, but with the caveat that they were all prior to the chef change that occurred a few months ago. The atmosphere in the two places is quite different, so it's really a matter of what you're feeling like. Since I find the best experience at L'atelier is to be had sitting at the bar, it may be a weaker choice for the type of meal you describe (leisurely, pampered, private, etc.).

They have a goat curry with rice pancakes as a main on the new menu. Is that it? I think I remember having goat there once a long time ago, but haven't had it for ages. It might be, but it's hard to tell without either seeing the dish or having more description.

Is the goat app they used to serve at Cendrillon on the menu at Purple Yam? I hope so...I'd go just for that. It was one of the great lesser known dishes of NY.

Sadly, Soho is pretty ludicrous, too, these days. There hasn't been an important new dining destination in that 'hood, other than Boqueria.

That is probably the one explanation we can discount: the bar was the only successful thing at Tailor, and the only part of it that is still open. When a restaurant becomes known as a dining destination, the block it is on is of relatively little importance. Not just the block, but actually the entire neighborhood where WD~50 is located, was unknown as a dining destination not that long ago. If your restaurant is important enough, people will find it. This was never the type of restaurant, regardless of its location, that was going to do much walk-in business. In its early days, the dining room at Tailor was reliably full. Restaurants survive when a sufficient quantity of the early visitors are motivated to become regulars, and to recommend it to their friends. Tailor failed because not enough people felt the urge to do so. It didn't help that practically all of the reviews were middling to negative. The original menu at Tailor was a mistake. It didn't have enough savory courses, and some of the dishes were awfully expensive in relation to the portion sizes. Mason eventually adjusted, but the reviews were in by then. I do agree with an earlier poster that the much-delayed opening and the early hype (fueled by Mason himself) were unhelpful. My reference to "bar business" was probably a bit unclear, but I was referring to the old restaurant theory that when you open a new dining venue, you want to fill the restaurant's bar with regulars who also dine there. A full bar then gives the restaurant additional food business under that model and makes it feel like it's bustling. Tailor didn't do that. The thing with Tailor's bar is that it was very separate from the restaurant, both physically and in terms of clientele. They were essentially two separate venues. Sure, there was a certain number of "cocktailians" who went to the bar for the drinks, but at its peak, the bar's crowd was totally separate from the restaurant's in terms of makeup, and was driven mainly by hipness rather than epicurean interest. In fact, many of the foodie types who came just for drinks still had them in the dining room and not the bar. Like any new nightlife venue, once the bar downstairs lost its status as the new place, it also lost some of its energy and business. And since it never really connected much with the restaurant, it didn't help that side. Sure, they kept it open, but that's because they could still get some revenue coming in, while laying out less in terms of costs (and without a chef, host, and numerous support staff). Even a successful restaurant makes a large percentage of its money via alcohol, and it's a lot easier to keep the bar open with one or two less-skilled employees stirring up the existing formulas than it is to keep a whole dining room running. After the dining room closed, they typically only had one or two people running the bar max. And it certainly hadn't been profitable for a long time...it was just a way to stem the losses and get a trickle of money coming in. What you say about dining destinations is mostly true, but in the current economy maybe a bit less so. While WD-50 is a good example, they're doing less well now than they had been, too. Another thing to keep in mind is that Soho at the time of Tailor's opening was essentially a neighborhood on the way down, while the part of the LES surrounding Clinton Street when WD-50 opened was a neighborhood on the way up. Though it wasn't rife with food options for too long before the opening, it had already been home to several restaurants even on that one block. If the block where a restaurant is located really didn't matter, then I don't think we would have seen The John Dory close. It got mostly good/great reviews and was very busy to start with, yet its eventual closing was also blamed on neighborhood traffic. While a high end restaurant may lure people from further away, something at Tailor's price point and level of ambition is less likely to, unless it's one of a few screaming hot places in town. And as we all have said, they lost the chance to be that when all the delays hit. You make excellent points about the early mixed reviews and the time it took to make necessary adjustments to the menu structure. Let's hope things work out better for Sam next time. And let's also hope that NY makes more room in its heart for "modern" cooking.

For some reason, the word "tourist" is practically always used as a pejorative on these threads, which is why I prefer the less-judgmental word "visitor." Some visitors are extremely keen on finding excellent, but lesser known, dining options. Several of the places mentioned on this thread are very well known. A visitor who does his homework in advance is quite likely to find out about them. Does that make them bad? Great point, Marc. After all, I've been a tourist during most of my (extensive) food travels. Now, "B&T" on the other hand.... NB: I do think that on a thread labelled "Not For Tourists", there must be better suggestions for non-touristy pizza than Arturo's (and Lombardi's), real NY or not. I think the gist of the OP's question was finding places that are known mainly or exclusively by locals and are off the radar of non-locals.

I hate to say it, but I'd suggest trying this question on Chowhound, too. Their group is larger and you may get some more input. I say this simply because I've been to PDH quite a few times, and while their duck is decent, it's certainly nothing special compared to a really great one. Wish I could provide more options to try, but I'd assume that somewhere in this city (maybe Flushing, maybe one of the shmancier places such as Chinatown Brasserie) there must be a superior version. A number of years back, I had better Peking duck at Kam Chueh, which sadly is gone now. Where are our Chinese experts when we need them?

As others have mentioned, it's really important to distinguis between fancy or nouvelle Greek and more traditional places. Manhattan isn't really a great place for down and dirty homestyle Greek food, but in the fancier realm, Anthos and Molyvos (already mentioned) are quite good. Another sleeper in the fancy Greek realm used to be Thalassa in Tribeca, though I haven't been in quite a while, so can't guarantee that it's still good.