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I did an experiment a while ago hard shaking a cocktail with mint and another rolling. It wasn't blind; but, well, there ya go. To me the hard shake one had a bitter, sour, plant flavor. The rolling shake one only had the mint fragrance. Kind of like pulverizing the mint or not with juleps and mojitos. In a cocktail as simple as the derby, it would be pretty darn noticeable.

Rolling shake with cracked ice, unless you want mint pieces in your teeth.

Vermont Spirits make a Maple Vodka. I've read about it; but, not tried. Maple Vodka They also make a milk vodka!

Derby Cocktail 2 Dashes Peach Bitters. (Fee's) 2 Sprigs Fresh Mint. 1 Glass Dry Gin. (2 oz Bombay Gin) Shake well and strain into cocktail glass. Can you imagine what the bartender would say about you if you ordered this? "Oh, I'll have 2 oz of gin shaken with a couple sprigs of mint and a dash or two of peach bitters." Hell-lo, Alcoholic! Of course, really, it is no different than the modern "super-extra-dry vodka martini," alcohol-wise, and quite a bit tastier. Minty, peachy, cold gin. (Yeah, it does need to be really cold.) Quite refreshing and vaguely medicinal seeming. Might be good for you, if you have a cold!

Ha, scratchline! That's exactly what I was going to point out to johnder! Kind of defeats the purpose of replicating one unavailable orange bitter if you have to find another unavailable one! Fortunately, over on DrinkBoy, Robert Hess posted the following update from Patrick Sepe, CEO for Angostura USA: Hopefully soon!

Ooops! Sorry for my little rant about Golden Delicious apples, there. I grew up in Midwestern apple country, so I have strong opinions about apple varieties. I just think they are a pretty boring apple, not typically even used for cider or juice. From Clear Creek's website, it does appear that they use at least some portion of Golden Delicious Apples they grow themselves. I have only had a cocktail made with some portion of the Clear Creek 8 Year, and it came across as very oaky. I have to admit I am intrigued by apple spirits and cocktails made with them. I'm going to have to find a bar with a decent selection of Calvados and see if I can't get them to pour me some tastes.

scratchline, Wow, jealous of your finds! So would you say that you need to add bitters to cocktails made with Amaro CioCiaro to get them closer to how they would be with Amer Picon?

Boy, my experience with Calvados is so limited, I'm not sure I can say. So far, I've tried two young Calvados, and both tasted very much like distilled hard cider. All the American Apple Brandies I've tried have had a much more clean apple taste, like an apple Eau-de-Vie or even apple liqueur. Of the young American Apple Brandies I've tried, the Clear Creek 2 year is the lightest tasting of the bunch. I liked the Clear Creek in the Dempsey more than the Depth Charge Brandy. It has a slightly spicy flavor that worked well with the lighter flavors of the gin. With the Lemon in the picture, in the Depth Charge Brandy, the Clear Creek seems to get lost. It's not bad; but, the other elements dominate.

Depth Bomb Cocktail 1 Dash Lemon Juice. 4 Dashes Grenadine. (Homemade) 1/2 Calvados or Apple Brandy. (Calvados Roger Groult, Réserve 3 years old) 1/2 Brandy. (Maison Surrenne Petite Champagne Cognc) Shake well and strain into cocktail glass. Ostensibly, this is about the same cocktail as the Depth Charge Brandy (6 People); but, what a world of difference the Calvados makes! In the Depth Charge Brandy made with the Clear Creek Apple Brandy, the Cognac dominated. In this one, I would be hard pressed to detect the Cognac in the cocktail!

Depth Charge Brandy Cocktail (6 People) Carefully shake together 2 1/2 glasses of Brandy, and the same amount of Calvados to which has been added 2 dessertspoonsful of Grenadine and 4 of Lemon Juice. Adapted For 1. Generous 1 oz of Maison Surrenne Petite Champagne Cognac Generous 1 oz Clear Creek Apple Brandy Teaspoon Homemade Grenadine Juice 1/4 Lemon Shake and strain into cocktail glass. The Cognac is really the dominant element here, with the other ingredients playing supporting roles. Really an enjoyable cocktail, being much more spirit forward than the traditional Sidecar or Jack Rose. I guess I am puzzled as to what it might have to do with the preceding "Depth Charge Cocktail".

Digest: San Francisco Chronicle Wine Digest and 96 Hours section, Friday, October 19, 2007 Resurrecting spirits, Camper English THE SIPPING NEWS: First look: Cellar360 in S.F., Lynne Char Bennett Local brewers win at beer fest, Jay Thomas Lessons in whiskey, Camper English Bartender's secret: maple syrup, Camper English What we're drinking A wine for ice cream, Elizabeth Gruse Tasting Room: Taste terroir at earth-friendly Ridge, Jane Tunks Elevating Torrontes in the Andes, Ella Lawrence Beer: American brewers mix it up Belgian-style, Derrick Schneider Pairings: An earthy partner for Pinot Noir, Lynn Char Bennett Recipes: Matsutake Meat Sugo The Cheese Course: Daisy cheddar blooms on the palate, Janet Fletcher 96 Hours Bar Bites: T-Rex Barbeque, Stacy Finz "When Cindy and Haig Krikorian added this two-story dining room and lounge to their impressive repertoire of East Bay restaurants, they seemed to have kids in mind. Although this barbecue joint - with its gleaming bamboo floors, trussed ceilings, sculptural staircase and large frameless glass doors - is more sophisticated than your average roadhouse, it's as family friendly as a backyard weenie roast. Just look at the menu: bite-size spicy riblets ($9), macaroni and cheese ($8) and watermelon ice pops ($2.50 each). From 3 to 6 p.m. daily, T-Rex holds a happy hour, serving appetizers, well drinks and draft beer for $1 to $5. Upstairs, there is a lounge area with upholstered club chairs, small tables and a flat-panel television for game viewing. On nice days, there's balcony seating, and there's always room for a stroller or high chair on the main level." Bargain Bite: Brazil Cafe, Carol Ness "Brazil Cafe This is the restaurant that tri-tip built - as in chunks of chewy beef cut into cubes and browned, then piled on a soft, fresh-baked French roll with grilled onions and doused with a deliciously pungent but balanced garlic-cilantro sauce ($6.95).It would be impossible to figure out how many of these sandwiches have poured, along with the nonstop strains of samba and bossa nova, out of this funky, lively stand since Pedro Robin put it up in the parking lot of a downtown Berkeley paint store seven years ago."

Interesting information Max! Since posting above a year ago I had the pleasure of seeing a bunch of slides from a dinner party in the late 1940s or early 1950s. My wife's Grandfather was quite the shutterbug, so the slides were from every 15 minutes or so. Aside from seeing pictures of my wife's family, it was really neat to see the progression of the drinks. From before dinner Old-Fashioneds, Manhattans, and Martinis to wine with dinner. One of the more interesting things was to see what was for offer on the post prandial table: Coffee, cigarettes, and liqueur bottles. There was Grand Marnier and a bunch of other bottles I couldn't identify. My wife's Dad said one was probably Creme de Menthe, as it had been quite popular at that time. I grew up in a dry family, so this display of sophisticated drinking seemed pretty cool.

One of the more interesting Orgeat/Horchata type things I've had recently was a house made red rice horchata at the Teardrop Lounge in Portland. Really cool color and interesting taste.

Actually, I really enjoyed the Amber Rhum Agricole, Applejack, and Punt e Mes version of the Vieux Carre. The Scotch, Calvados, Bianco Vermouth, and grapefruit twist version was also really nice. The way the grapefruit twist combined with the Scotch really pulled it together in an interesting way. But, I agree, it probably comes down to picking your ingredients carefully, and a Bobby Burns is a much less finicky drink.

Oh, and, lack of tumescence aside, Clement is a very well regarded Rhum Agricole. At $12 a bottle, I'd probably buy a case. Though, maybe just get one first, to make sure you actually like White Rhum Agricoles.

Does seem like a great price for that Rhum. It is an unaged Rhum Agricole, though, so it can't really be subbed in to cocktails where white rum is called for without some consideration. I've not tried it personally; but, as a white rhum agricole, the Clement is a little on the flaccid side, proof-wise.

re: Dempsey I suppose that is true. I hadn't really thought of it that way. It also calls for Calvados not "Calvados or Apple Brandy," so that might be a big thing in the flavor profile of this cocktail. I really was amazed at the different flavor profiles of Calvados and American Apple Brandies. They really are completely different animals. Though, just a plain Apple Brandy or Calvados Old-Fashioned Cocktail would be perfectly fine with me. Depth Charge Cocktail 2 Dashes Absinthe. (Verte de Fougerolles) 1/2 Glass Kina Lillet. (Generous 1 oz Cocchi Americano) 1/2 Glass Dry Gin. (Generous 1 oz Junipero Gin) Shake (Stir - eje) well and strain into cocktail glass. Squeeze orange peel on top. This is the first time I've used the Cocchi Americano in a Kina Lillet cocktail and not been sure if I enjoyed it. Something about this combination just didn't quite work for me. Especially odd, considering how much I enjoyed the very similar Deep Sea Cocktail.

Vieux Carre Variation 2 1 oz Highland Park 12 1 oz Calvados Roger Groult, Réserve 3 years old 1 oz M&R Bianco Vermouth Dash Benedictine Dash Angostura Dash Peychaud's Stir, strain, grapefruit peel twist.

I asked about Calvados at one of my favorite local liquor stores, PlumpJack Wine Store, and they steered me in the direction of Calvados Roger Groult Réserve 3 years old. It's around $30 bucks and quite a bit nicer than the Morice, (which may head to the cupboard of misfit booze until a Calvados punch rears its ugly head.) It's got some of the hard cider funk; but, it is much more restrained and civilized. I'd say it is as sip-able as any of the American Apple Brandies I've tried with much more interesting apple character. One thing that puzzles me about the Clear Creek Apple Brandy is that they brag on the bottle that it is made from "Golden Delicious Apples." Is there a single more pathetically flavorless and uninteresting apple than the Golden Delicious? I can't think of one. Why would you make anything using Golden Delicious apples? I mean, without question, it is a fine Apple Brandy; but, why use those apples?

re: Vieux Carre Variation I tried one with Clear Creek Apple Brandy, Compass Box Asyla, Carpano Antica, Benedictine and Angostura bitters last night. It was all right. For me there wasn't enough contrast between the flavors of the spirits for it to be truly interesting. Maybe a dash of stronger flavored Scotch? Of course, my poor addled brains failed to remember this Vieux Carre variation. No wonder it seemed like a good idea...

Is there a good Calvados in the $20-30 range for mixing? What do you bartender types use for cocktails? Is this Morice Calvados Pays D'Auge considered any good?

The Sierra Nevada 2007 Harvest Fresh Hop Ale is out and about. Picked up 6 24 oz bombers a couple days ago at Beverages and More. Popped the top on one last night. Strong complex hop flavors, good malty backbone. Not overly sweet or bitter. Very nicely balanced and complex. Definitely one of the nicer beers I've tried from Sierra Nevada.

Taste off between Clear Creek 2 year Apple Brandy, Laird's Bonded Apple Brandy, Germain-Robin Apple Brandy, and Calvados Morice. First note, the Calvados is really different in character from the American Apple Brandy. The American Apple Brandies have clean apple flavors. The Calvados tastes and smells vinegar-ish. It has the funky flavor I associate with British Hard Cider. Is it good that they capture the flavor of fermented cider rather than apple fruit? Of the American products, the Laird's and Clear Creek are quite similar. The Clear Creek seems to have a spice character I don't notice in the Laird's. The Germain-Robin is the most sippable and gentile. I don't know if it is twice as nice as the Clear Creek or three times as nice as the Laird's; but, it is noticeably smoother. None have much noticeable Oak character. I'll be interested to try an older Calvados or American Apple Brandy to see how the flavors develop. edit - post brandy typos.

After trying the 2-1-1 Widow's Kiss, I'm gonna say, at least 20%, maybe more. Though, it is pretty tough to judge percentages. To me the Widow's Kiss is is much closer to the Bijou than a Manhattan. Bijou cocktails are borderline too sweet for me. I would also bet that Yellow Chartreuse is pretty close to clement creole shrubb in brix.

I dunno, Clear Creek makes a few apple products. Clear Creek Apple One is a 2 year aged apple brandy and the other is a 8 year old apple brandy. They also do an apple brandy with an apple in a bottle. They all say "Eau de Vie de Pomme" at some place on the label. The two year apple brandy seems a bit close to the Laird's bonded to add much interest to a cocktail. The 8 year is closer to a Calvados, with prominent oak flavors.