bjosiam

Response to earlier question from Mr. Laderman by Dr. Bharath Josiam Q. Many Indian immigrants to USA are professionals - Doctors, engineers etc. Response: Again, we had mentioned this in the paper. This is due to immigration policies of the US government. In the 60s, many professional Indians were invited to US by the government and given green cards. To date, Indians have not been permitted under immigration lotteries, so the trend is generally towards professionals. This is a big barrier to the availability of cooks and chefs in particular. Having said that - one bunch of professionals are "Hotel School" professionals. Way back in the 60's, hotel schools were set up in India, training a steady flow of professionals. Originally there were only 4 such Institutes of Hotel Management (IHMs) in Delhi, Bombay, Madras and Calcutta. Now there are probably over a 100, including many private institutions. I am an alumni of IHM Delhi, while Prema is of IHM, Bombay. Contributors to egullet forums such as bbhasin and Chef Vinod of Indique are also IHM alums - I think this professional training shows in the quality of their restaurants. There are many such IHM professionals in your NYC area. Next time you are at a good Indian restaurant, ask the manager - you will often find that the manager, chef or the owner is an IHM alum. Regards, Dr. Bharath Josiam

Mr. Leaderman: I signed off officially - but had some time today, so I am back. Your comment - UK has more Indian restaurants for a number of historical reasons. Response: I agree 100%. We have acknolwledged as much in the paper - which hopefully you have downloaded and read! Having said that, our points that still remain valid are: 1) UK is culturally similar to USA - so if the Brits take to Indian food, so would the Americans. It is only a matter of time. 2) UK also had colonies in Africa/Singapore/Malaysia etc and similar long-standing historical ties. The fact is that African food (I use the term very loosely - I am aware that Africa is a vast continent!) has not caught on in UK. If, for exampe, there were 5,000 Indian restaurants in Holland, we would not try to make a similar link. Hope that clarifies the issue.

Nessa: Your Questions: Authentic Indian food in DFW... Answer: There are many good Indian restaurants in the DFW area. I cannot do justice here to all of them. Having given that disclaimer, let me mention just one or two in each category that I have personally visited more than once and found to be consistently good. South Indian: My first choice is definitely "Madras Pavillion" on Coit, North of LBJ. Their lunch buffet is lavish and offers a variety of vegetarian South Indian food at a very good price. I even hosted there, my orthodox uncle from Madras, who avoids not just garlic but also onions. He certified it as definitely upto Tam Bhram standards. While they do feature North Indian items like Chole-Bhature - they are simply not up to the standard of their South Indian food. If you are looking for meat items, I would recommend Chettinad Palace off Hwy 75 in Plano. They are doing a good job of sub-regional South Indian cuisine (Chettinad), that one does not find elsewhere. North Indian: I would recommend India Palace just south of LBJ at Preston. Trendy Indian: I would recommend Clay Pit in Addison on Beltline. Bombay Chinese: I would recommend Masala Wok in Richardson off Coit. Again, there are many more god ones, but I am naming my personal preferences here. Q2. Core Competency - knowing it and building it. Answer: In the case of restaurants, the first clue is the name. If it says Delhi, Bombay, Mughal etc etc it is North Indian. If it says, Madras, Udipi, Mysore etc it is South Indian. Beyond that, turn to Indians and ask them for referalls. To build up your personal expertise, learn from the older generation of first generation immigrants from India to USA. For example, my mother learned to make North Indian food from the Punjabi lady, who was our landlady in Delhi. You can also order cookbooks from India over the internet. There are a number of regional specialised cuisine cookbooks now available. A well established and reputed bookseller from India with an excellent and secure website is Vedamsbooks.com Hope that is helpful. I have to sign off now. Dr. Bharath Josiam

Response to questions from Mongo by Dr. Bharath Josiam Q5 and 7. Penetration of Indian food in USA/Acceptance by Americans to the level of Mexican or Chinese food.... Answer: If a small country, culturally similar, like UK can have over 7,000 Indian restaurants, I think it is only a matter of time before USA does. As the competition intensifies and penetration deepens we are bound to see more diversity of offerings. An obvious route to diversity would be the regional cuisines of India. It has already started in terms of say "Dakshin (South Indian)" food festival in Bombay Bistro in Fairfax, VA. Chef Vinod was successful in introducing many Keralite items to the Washington foodies in this festival. Some of the items have migrated to the regular menu of Bombay Bistro, and even to their new fusion/trendy venture - Indique. Another interesting trend is the growing number of "Bombay Chinese" restaurants all over USA. This goes back to my earlier comments about people seeking what they had experienced in India. Apparently, Indians find Chinese restaurants in USA too Americanized, so they want Chinese food as served in India!!!! What the market demands - entrepreneurs will provide! Bharath

Response to Mogo from Dr. Josiam - continued Mongo Q3. Ethnicity among Indians in USA answer: There is no hard data on Malyalees versus Bengalees in the USA. Their ethnic associations do throw around some numbers, but it is next to impossible to authenticate them. Minneapolis in particular was experiencing a boom in South Indians in the period when the survey was conducted. Minneapolis is a financial services center and lots of IT professionals came in to the area, many of whom were South Indians. Mongo Q4. Restaurants serving "street food" and non-speciality items.... Answer: Your speculation is on the mark here. Restauarants are trying to reach a broader audience and also to be differentiated. Furthermore, they are aware that people often come in groups and may have issues with specific foods (Example - many Indians want to avoid garlic - so Dosa or Idli is probably a better choice than most North Indian curries). Bharath

Dr. Josiam here. I could not get on yesterday, so I thought I would respond today to some of the questions raised earlier. Prema has already responded to some of these issues, so consider my replies as supplementary. Q1 from Mongo - Applicability of findings of study across USA... Answer: Mongo - You are right. USA is a huge country with many regional issues. Our study was confined to one place. We too suspect that in California there would be more vegetarians or in SFO or NYC people would be more ready to try fusion. As we professors always say - "More studies are needed!!" Q2. from Mongo - What is "authenticity," given the divide between home and restaurant cooking? Answer - A deep question indeed! I would say that "authenticity" in an Indian restaurant for an Indian is probably what they have earlier experienced in a restaurant in the region in India. For example, I am a South Indian (Tam Bhram to be precise) who has lived in both Madras and Delhi. When I eat samosas in a restaurant in the USA , I expect it to taste like samosas in Anupam Sweet Shop in Kailash Colony market or Evergreen Sweets in Green Park, New Delhi. Similarly, I expect the Dosai and Sambhar to taste like the ones in Drive-In Woodlands or Dasaprakash in Madras. I have repeatedly observed and many of my non-foodie friends have told me also that when a "South Indian" restaurant in the USA serves samosas or even Saag Paneer, it simply does not taste "authentic." The same is often true of the Dosais and sambhar served in "North Indian" restaurants. To put it into current management jargon (espoused by an Indian-origin professor Dr. C.K. Prahalad) it is an issue of "core competency." When people stray outside their core competency, it shows! Another example - South Indian classical music singers of Carnatic music insist on singing atleast one Meera Bhajan or song in Hindi. This is a tradition started by the venerable M.S. Subbulakshmi. However, in many cases, their hindi is so tinged with a South Indian accent that as a ex-Delhi guy, I find it jarring! I feel that they should simply stick to Carnatic music - their core competency - and not stray into areas where they lack the depth of expertise. Dr. Bharath Josiam

In general, I prefer to use Basmati with North Indian food - Pulao etc to go with North Indian curries. With South Indian food, I prefer to use Jasmine rice. I feel that the flavour of Basmati clashes with Sambhar, rasam etc. Ofcourse, being a South Indian, and a Tam Bhram at that, I did not grow up with basmati and rasam - so I might simply be responding to what I was brought up with. Bharath

I will sign off now (Monday 3.15PM). I will come on again late tonight and sometime tomorrow. Bye for now, Dr. Bharath Josiam

Monica and Deliad, Q. Role of Indian government in promoting Indian cuisine world-wide and economic and social implications of that. Monica: Yes - I did read a rather long and interesting article in the Wall Street Journal about the Thai government wanting to sponsor Thai restaurants. I am not sure if that was just a proposal or if that has been actually implemented - I look forwarded to insights from knowledgeable e.gullet folks on the specifics. Anyway, the logic of using government resources was: It seeds the market, it increases the customer base, that then increases the demand for Thai products and people, helping Thailand. I guess the same could be said for Indian food too. However, the longer I live in USA, the more inclined I am to free-market solutions rather than governement intervention. As much as the social concerns of Deliad, I think the issues are more of fraud, political interference, mis-placed priorities etc etc. As I mentioned earlier in response to a question from Bbhasin - perhaps the Indian government could be part of a public-private consortium to do market expansion. In fact, the Indian government has been doing just that over the years. For example, as far back as 1985, a big culinary delegation came from India to take part in the "Festival of India" organized by the Smithsonian. Chefs and managers came from India and sold Indian food to visitors to the Festival of India. Chef K.N. Vinod (of Bombay Bistro and Indique fame) was among those chefs then. He has also participated in similar food festivals in Malaysia. Perhaps he would care to comment on this issue. Dr. Bharath Josiam

Tryska: I will happily answer your short question with a long reply! Q. Delivery will enahnce the customer base... Answer: The trend all over USA is towards take-out and delivery. I am personally aware of many Indian restaurants that are seeing an increasing part of their business in the take-out mode at least. This suggests that more attention should be paid to expediting the take out experience in terms of time, order accuracy, hot food-hot/cold food-cold, quality of packaging materials etc. My personal experience suggests that this needs a lot more attention than it is presently getting. A major market expansion opportunity is being missed or under-utilized. Unlike the ubiquitous brochuring and mailbox stuffing done by Chinese restaurants, Indian restaunteurs seem to be under-selling the delivery market. More needs to be done in this regard. Yet another underserved market segment is the catering to parties, private dinners etc. While many restaurants do this routinely, the overwhelming majority of their customers are of Indian ethnic origin. There has been very little penetration of the larger USA market here. The good news here is that as there is an increase in the number of restaurants and the sophistication of the operators we are indeed seeing more of this. Market pressures will drive an increase in the take-out, carry-out, delivery, and catering segments. Look for innovative approaches here! Dr. Bharath Josiam

Response to last question from Bhasin: Q. Do Indians in an Indian restaurant signal "authenticity/good Indian restaurant?" Answer: Again, there are many interlinked issues here. You - Bhasin - are a sophisticated foodie. You are (think you are!) capable of making a judgement about any restaurant be it Indian, Mexican, French or Bavarian, based on your knowledge of food production and service. However, the "average" American in an ethnic restaurant may not have that level of confidence in their ability to judge an ethnic cuisine - they seek cues and clues - the sight of other Indians in the restaurant reassures them (rightly or wrongly!) that this is a good/authentic restaurant. Marketing theory (undergirded by lots of good research) tells us two things: a) Most people do not have the time/ability/inclination to gather and carefully process information - they just look for a few signals/cues/clues - process those-and come to conclusions. b) Perception is reality for most people - As earlier - we do not dig deep for the "truth." What we see, we take for the truth. Operators and marketers need to take these two things to heart - Identify perceptions of customers and non-customers - address them Do not overwhelm people with information - provide them with the cues and clues they want. In summary, this also goes back to my earlier comments about alienating Indians (or others) who may be seeking the old favourites. Indians do act as "gatekeepers," even if they are not frequent customers - it is not wise to alienate them, even if your target market is the larger USA publics. Dr. Bharath Josiam

Reply to next question from Bhasin: Q. Fusion versus authentic cuisine... Answer from Dr. Josiam: My response would be "we need both." Here the issue is market segmentation across restaurants and depth of offerings within a given restaurant. Let me address both below: Market Segmentation - The American public gets bored quickly and simply moves on to new offerings. Some restaurants can go for the market niche of fusion/trendy cuisine with accompanying sophisticated and targeted marketing. Others can stay with the well-known. The problem arises where the trendy restaurant does not send a clear signal about its offerings and this results in confusion in the marketplace. The solution is very clear comunication about the positioning of the restaurant within the market. Certainly major metros such as DC, NYC, LA, SF, Atlanta, Houston, DFW can support a few fusion/trendy Indian restaurants and most of these markets now have operators testing the waters. Depth of Offerings within Menu: Even a trendy restaurant needs to offer a few of the "old favourites" or it risks turning people off. Again these people may not be the core targeted customers, but people tend to eat in groups and there will always be some in that group seeking to eat within their comfort zone. The market for fusion is likely to be person seeking the overall experience, rather than authenticity. Similarly, they may also be already sophisticated in terms of having tried the traditional many times and are now ready to graduate to more adventurous terrain. In summary, I do not see it as either/or - I see it as a market segmentation issue. Dr. Bharath Josiam

Reply to next question from Bhasin Q. Indian food does not make it to top 10 - what can be done... Answer from Dr. Bharath Josiam There is no magic bullet here. A number of things can and should be done over a period of time. 1) More education and PR on forums such as e.gullet. Here the risk is that we might simply be preaching to the already converted. However, the benefit of addressing an audience educated in and interested in food is that they are the "gatekeepers" to the wider public. By reaching to this audience first, we pave the way for others to follow. 2) Maybe forming a professional association of Indian restauranteurs in USA. Such an association could be a place not only to "professionalize" service in Indian restaurants but also to serve as a point of contact for information - inbound and outbound. 3) Bringing together many interested parties such as food marketers, distributors, restauranteurs, etc. and pooling resources to mount a major educational/marketing campaign on the lines of "Drink Milk." Just some ideas - maybe others can add to this list. Dr. Bharath Josiam

Let me start with the questions from Bhasin. Q. Quizzing employees... Answer: No - we did not quiz employees. In academic research, we try to stay focussed on one narrow topic at a time and build up topic-by-topic over time. I think it is a great idea to quiz employees. In academic "Service Management" literature, this is known as "Gap Analysis." In such an analysis we try to see where the gaps are between perceptions of owners, managers, operational employees, and guests. The findings can enable us to "close the gaps" by addressing issues of communication, expectations, knowledge, and operations to deliver better service. Maybe, that can be the next thesis! That is why, most research papers end with a section - Implications for Researchers - where these issues are addressed. Bharath

Monica: Bharath Josiam here! Thanks for hosting the forum. I am glad to see that it has generated some very interesting and thought provoking questions. I will try to give my insights to the best of my ability. On a forum like e-gullet however, there are probably people with greater expertise. I hope they will forgive my professorial specualtions if they are way off-base! Bharath