Nathan

nope...it's well-executed takes on Asian street food and home cooking. I love the place, don't get me wrong, but that's what it is. (yes, some of the menu at Ssam Bar fits in that category...but much of it is quite a bit more elevated than anything at Fatty Crab) in other words, remember where this thread came from - the Bouley Upstairs and Ssam Bar threads. This is not a "cheap but really really good" thread. (we already have those) ← Hard for me to think of anything more elevated than the watermelon belly salad. And I'm not so sure most of those dishes at Fatty Crab actually derive from street food except in the chef's imagination. ← Pelaccio tweaks the dishes alright...but most of them are quite recognizeable (so the short rib rendang -- a boring dish -- uses short ribs...so? otherwise it's a perfectly plausible rendang) frankly, I don't think the cooking there is polished enough...it's rustic.

So far, it still looks like a short list of places with very tenuous similarities, while other apparently similar places are conveniently excluded because they don't support the desired conclusion. ← eh, Bouley Upstairs, Ssam Bar and Degustation have blatantly strong similarities with each other that they most certainly do not have with Perry Street and the like.

Gordon Ramsay is proof of that. today, innovation is a part of the four-star paradigm. it just is.

nope...it's well-executed takes on Asian street food and home cooking. I love the place, don't get me wrong, but that's what it is. (yes, some of the menu at Ssam Bar fits in that category...but much of it is quite a bit more elevated than anything at Fatty Crab) in other words, remember where this thread came from - the Bouley Upstairs and Ssam Bar threads. This is not a "cheap but really really good" thread. (we already have those)

Only on the basis of the title of this thread! ← that's why I said that other than FG's given price parameter..I think L'Atelier easily fits the given paradigm.

Perry Street doesn't fit into the new paradigm we're describing. even though it doesn't use tablecloths, it's still fundamentally within the classic fine dining structure.

the egg custard dish uses truffles on occasion...but yeah, the menu seems to change almost daily

uni, truffles. edit: per FG, the use of dashi and other "haute" asian ingredients

I think even moreso in SF, as it's a much more casual vibe fitting in with the culture - we love eating at the bar at places like Boulevard, Zuni, even the Slanted Door. And, fwiw, I think Stars was one of the first great bar dining scenes in the country. ← cool...that's what I was wondering. I've eaten pretty extensively in Chicago, Atlanta, South Florida, etc...and there's no bar dining to speak of...I was wondering if CA was different...it makes sense that it would be. ← I've actually eaten at the bar at a couple of places in Boston I don't know if it's just the couple of places I hit (No 9 Park and Radius) or if it's a general culture. One place I've eaten in the "lounge" area at in Chicago is Tru. Can't call it bar dining but it does have a separate menu that I would call "haute". ← oh, I've eaten at the bar around the country...it's just that I was one of very few people doing it. everytime I go to Chicago I always eat at Frontera Grill. everytime I'm enormously amused by the line out the door of people waiting more than two hours (literally) for a table....while there are numerous spots at the bar where one can eat.

we're talking about haute-based food with luxe ingredients...it'll never be "cheap"...but can it be much lower-priced than a four-star? absolutely. if I had to throw a definition out there -- the food is haute based in some sense (i.e. not just rustic or home-cooking style), prepared in a manner that bespeaks extensive classical knowledge and/or training on the part of the chef (anyone want to take a bet that Wylie couldn't make every single thing on the La Grenouille savory menu on almost a moment's notice?), luxe ingredients are used where appropriate, at a quality level that is at least three-star if not approaching four-star, but served in an informal and casual surrounding. this is the trend that I believe FG, Bruni, et al are speaking of. for purposes of this thread I think FG wants to limit the discussion to places where the price is correspondingly depressed to match the surroundings (ruling out L'Atelier...which I think otherwise fits).

I think even moreso in SF, as it's a much more casual vibe fitting in with the culture - we love eating at the bar at places like Boulevard, Zuni, even the Slanted Door. And, fwiw, I think Stars was one of the first great bar dining scenes in the country. ← cool...that's what I was wondering. I've eaten pretty extensively in Chicago, Atlanta, South Florida, etc...and there's no bar dining to speak of...I was wondering if CA was different...it makes sense that it would be.

If you read up the Ssam Bar thread you'll find that late-night elaborate chef-driven dishes was the plan all along....what was accidental was being financially forced to start serving those dishes before 10:30 PM. I do think Bouley Upstairs was a happy accident...a showcase for his cooking school that took off.

oh sure...I think it does come out of the bar dining trend....which is still primarily an uniquely NY phenomenon (do they do this extensively in SF as well?)...but it'll spread.

Matsuri hasn't been hot in three years. Da Silvano is one of those places that sticks around...getting a mixture of Eurotrash and models...

the food at Bar-Room at the Modern ranges from rustic-traditional (the superb tarte-flambee, the bakeoffe) to more haute. I think it belongs on this thread though. as has been noted, Ssam Bar, Bouley Upstairs, Room4Dessert and Degustation are poster-children for this thread. I imagine the upcoming Tailor will fit here. Chubo was sort of the first of this generation...the problem with Chubo is that it isn't that good. ditto for a now defunct molecular place that had a brief life in the EV.

and the thing is, the pasta was pretty good!

yup. the thing is...if someone really wanted to go celeb-spotting...I could take them on a walking tour of about five WV spots tonight...and they'd be guaranteed of seeing a couple people (and we'd skip the Waverly Inn as that'd be cheating)...but none of those spots are scenes or filled with beautiful people (necessarily)...etc. Is there really any point in knowing the two places where Keri Russell always gets her coffee?

yes. fwiw, a significant proportion of the clientele on Friday night were European (specifically, I heard plenty of French and Italian)...yeah, I was surprised by that as well. edit: I made pasta my main course precisely because a. the portion was too large and b. I had significant reservations as to how good a $15 filet mignon entree could be (the stracetti di manzo).

Well thats disappointing! You should tell that to Sharif Malnick so that he may consider opening a NYC branch! Just make sure the elevator doors are solid (re: BED-NY incident and closing). ← a NY branch might be very popular...but it just wouldn't get very many NY'ers after the first couple months (at least on the weekends). so it'd be the same as every other such imported place.

Primi are not apps; they're pasta or risotto courses or soups. ← I know. everything at Celeste is in the $6-10 range besides secondi

I'm not going to answer for Nathan (he's pretty good at doing that himself), but I do have an observation.I cannot foresee the death of great restaurants that: A) take reservations; B) have serious wine lists; C) have luxurious service; D) serve top-notch food. Any critic who insists on using adjectives like "fussy," "effete," "starchy," "self-conscious," "[in]accessible," "ritual[istic]," "preening," "vain," or "highfalutin" to describe that kind of restaurant is in the wrong job. And any critic who insists a generational shift has taken place, and that "savvy" diners (as a category) no longer are interested in such things, is totally out of touch. I would add (in case it is not obvious) that the opposite critic would be no good either. ← I agree with this. of course, I don't think Bruni is saying that either.

see here's the problem...you're awfully opinionated about a city that you're not very familiar with (not anymore anyway). almost everything creative and interesting being done today in food, fashion, art, dance and music in NY (excepting ballet and classical/jazz -- my personal preferences actually) is downtown or in Brooklyn. literally. but anyway..the fact that you would confuse Graydon Carter and the Little Owl is just embarrassing (since you're so opinionated about the topic). furthermore, um, no, none of us have any interest in waiting at velvet ropes...that's a mug's game. the last thing in the world that Little Owl, Degustation, Ssam Bar, etc. are, are "velvet rope" places. (edit: put differently, there aren't too many people from NY waiting outside of those velvet rope joints....) I'm a lawyer too, I have the same tendency to talk like an authority on everything, but I'm not going to claim to have the slightest clue what the habits are of a different generation than mine own in Tampa.

Buddakan for scene (and apparently it has decent food)...but on a Thursday night the clientele will be mostly non-NY'ers looking for a scene. Perry Street has excellent food and a decent chance of "real" celebs...even on a Thursday night....but there's no "scene". I'm familiar with The Forge (I'm going there for a party this weekend actually) and there's nothing like it in NY. Here's the thing: the NY scene, such as it is, is on weeknights.

the sole point in going to Mas is the late-night menu...otherwise, yeah, it's hard to see how they justify the prices.

Do you think Jean Georges is profitable at lunch, or does he stay open as a loss-leader for dinner? I don't think it will die off entirely, but I think the market for luxury lunches will never again as brisk as it used to be. Probably it will be limited to certain very successful restaurants, or in neighborhoods where there is enough of the "right kind" of business traffic. ← He doesn't need it as a loss leader for dinner. I'm told by someone who used to be in JG management that the lunches at JG, JoJo and Perry Street are designed to break even. He already has a prep crew working for dinner...its not too much of a hassle to schedule a couple extra cooks and it gives wait staff an opportunity to make some extra money. Ingredient costs are precisely calibrated. I do think time is the big issue. I work within walking distance of JG and never make it for lunch. its just too big a chunk of the day. I hit Perry Street for lunch often because its open on the weekends and I live close by.