geo t.

Frankly, this has not been my experience at all. The wine in question in this thread, for instance, lost nothing in the way of "the most delicate aromatics." I know, because I sampled it when first decanted, then sipped it over a period of extended time, and it only became more harmonious, both on the nose and the palate. This has been my experience again and again, with both red Burgundy and domestic pinot noir. You don't like the idea of extended aeration? Fine, don't decant! I'll opt to do otherwise.

Uh, Craig, we're talking about a red Burgundy here, not a white. As for "historical support from established experts," I could care less. All I'm telling you is what works for me and for a lot of very knowledgeable wine enthusiasts for whom I have a great deal of respect, including a couple of gents taking part in this very discussion. If people want to drink tight, hard wines poured straight from the bottle that would actually benifit from some air to open, fine. I'll opt for the other route.

Old news in some circles...

Thank you. Thank you very mudge.

Well, if the wine keeps drinking better and better over such a long period of time, then it obviously "needs" that amount of time to open up. Believe whatever you want. I'm comfortable with my position on this matter, based not only on quite a bit of personal experience, but also on that of others who've reported similar findings.

Disagree strongly. They can need as much as 24 hours of air before opening up when they're not yet fully mature.

Agreed on an earlier taste; no doubt different bottles of this will do different as they diverge with time. Here're notes of mine from 5 years or so ago: 1990 Domaine Du Pegau Chateauneaf-du-Pape Reservee: CZ sprung this on us as a "mystery wine." Purple garnet with perfumed plum/red currant/spicy bramble/briar and notes of lavender/chocolate that emerge with air; no one came close to guessing what this was. I was thinking Zin, with the bramble/briar, but was obviously a long way off. Every bit as good as the 1991 Guigal Cote-Rotie in its own way, with none of the barnyard aspects often found in wines from this appellation, it’s easily the prettiest CdP I’ve ever tasted.

1990 Moillard Corton Clos des Vergennes Grand Cru, 11.5 – 13.5% alc.: A somewhat rusty ruby garnet, this is showing black cherry, plum, smoke and mineral character, with just a whiff of heat on the nose. Concentrated and intense, the medium full bodied flavors carry through beautifully, with a good dose of tannins and acidity. At first I thought I might have opened it too early (despite four or five hours in a decanter), but in the glass, it just keeps opening and opening, becoming more and more harmonious, while gaining nuances of forest floor and decaying vegetation along the way. Give this emphatic wine eight hours in a decanter before pouring a glass, and it won’t disappoint, but it has the stuffing to improve for at least another five years. Imported by Vin Fins Import Marketing Co., Long Island City, NY Reporting from Day-twah, geo t.

You describe one like we had last September, though it wasn't given time to open in a decanter as it deserved. The wine we tasted last week was nothing like the one you describe. It was very nice indeed. No forgiveness, just the facts, man. };^)>

From Red Wings and Red Rhônes '03-04 Playoff Diary: 1990 Domaine du Pegau Châteauneuf du Pape, $19.95, 13.5% alc: Alan Kerr contributed this to our mojo making, and it seemed to confirm the impressions of many who tasted it last September that it still has a while to go before it'll show its best. A slightly rusty ruby garnet in color, it's showing mature earthy stewed fruit, roasted beet, smoke, cola, cured salted meat, brine-y olive, nutmeg and a touch of white pepper. It really blossoms with half an hour of air, and it continues to open and evolve as long as there's some left. Still, it has the structure to hold and improve for another ten years; I just wish it was still available, especially for the price that Alan paid for it way back when. Imported by J et R Selections, Mount Pleasant, MI Reporting from Day-twah, geo t.

Thanks Craig, I'll put these on my "short list" of things to try. Of course, that "short list" keeps getting longer and longer...

1990 Château Meyney Saint – Estephe, $19.99, 12.5% alc.: Still a dark garnet, with barely a hint of brick, this is giving plenty of nice cassis and black currant flavors and aromas, all shaded with notes of earth, cigar box, leather, and what Kim describes as bacon and kalamata olives. There’s a solid core of sweet, deep fruit in an otherwise decidedly dry profile; it’s drinking very well now, with mostly resolved tannins, a velvet mouth feel and a long lovely finish. As it opens over four hours, it just becomes more and more delicious, and best of all, it still has a few years of improvement left in it, if this bottle is any indication. Imported by Seagram Chateau & Estate Wines Co., New York, NY Reporting from Day-twah, geo t.

1999 Terrabianca Ceppate Toscana, 75% Cabernet Sauvignon, 25% Merlot, $49.99, 13% alc.: This ruby dark garnet never does throw much of a nose, so one has to be satisfied with the almost candied black cherry, red currant and chocolate flavors that seem more Cali – centric or Oz – ified than Eye – talian. Some burry tannins initially add an impression of underbrush that extends through the finish, but these smooth out quickly with air, as this medium full bodied red turns sweet, sleek and silky. At first, it almost doesn’t taste like a cabernet – merlot blend, but as it opens, an earthy note comes on to bring it back to a somewhat more characteristic personality. It certainly has the fruit and the structure to last the five to eight years that it needs to fully mature, but will it ever “grow a nose?” Pretty expensive for a wine so lacking in aromatics right now. 1999 Terrabianca Piano del Cipresso Toscana, 100% Sangiovese, $45.99, 13% alc.: This dark garnet is rather more aromatic than the Ceppate, with dried black cherries accented by overtones of sweet oak and hints of earth, tar and licorice. Flavors veer dramatically towards quintessential sangiovese character, with the dried black cherries, licorice, tar, earth and some added underbrush coming to the fore, while the sweet oak is much subdued. Sleek and silky, but not nearly as sweet as the Ceppate, the tannins need at least three to five years for this to show its best, but even so, this is damned drinkable already. Very Tuscan in nature, with that deep, dark sangio personality, excellent (but balanced) acidity and a good long finish, I like this a lot, but I’d like it even more priced at around $10 less. Imported by Empson (USA) Inc., Alexandria, VA Reporting from Day-twah, geo t.

Thanks, docsconz. More Napa than Bordeaux? I dunno. Forward, yes, from the bunch that I've tasted since they've been released. Give 'em plenty of air, and the vast majority drink quite nicely. But none have been close to the Mouton in sheer yummability. Of course, I haven't tasted the other 3 first growths, so my blinders may be showing. I was darned happy to get a taste of these two beauties. Cheers, geo

Park the Karma. Walk the Dogma. If we don't see you through the week, we'll see you through the window, Brad... };^)>

Thanks Brad, glad I heard about this forum. Cheers, geo

Thanks Andre. I mostly agree with you, but just so we're "on the same page," you may want to read my notes again. The Mouton was "luscious and opulent, and drinking amazingly well already." It was also my favorite wine of the three based on how they were drinking yesterday afternoon, not ten years down the road. Both it and the Haut-Brion were anything but "relatively undrinkable." If the intent was to "stack the deck" in favor of the Rubicon, it didn't work, at least not for me and those sitting around me. Cheers, geo

I took the opportunity to attend a trade event today presented by Niebaum - Coppola, through their regional distributor, Vintage Wine Company, of Roseville, Michigan. The tasting – luncheon, held at Mr. Paul’s Chop House in Roseville, was a novel way of promote the release of 2000 vintage of the Niebaum – Coppola flagship wine, Rubicon, by presenting it side – by – side with the 2000 Château Mouton Rothschild Pauillac and the 2000 Château Haut – Brion Pessac – Léognan, pretty heady company indeed. The intent was to show that Rubicon is a world class Cabernet Sauvignon that can hold its own with the best of Bordeaux for considerably fewer dollars. On hand to pass on information about the wines on hand was David Kouzmanoff, Niebaum – Coppola Central Regional Manager. We got things started with a newly released white. 2003 Francis Coppola Napa Sauvignon Blanc Diamond Collection, 13.5% alc.: This saw no oak whatsoever, having been slowly cold fermented in stainless steel. Flavors and aromas show a noticeable dose of cat spray over gooseberry, grapefruit and lime, with good acidity and medium intensity. Good quality here, but I’d like it better for a few less dollars; it retails at about $14 in Michigan. 2002 Niebaum – Coppola Napa Blancaneaux Rutherford, 43% Marsanne, 30% Chardonnay, 16% Roussanne, 11% Viognier, 14.1% alc.: Blancaneaux means “white water” in French, and while Mr. Kouzmanoff and many of the attendees seemed to feel otherwise, I thought in could have been called Blancan – barrique, with all the oak that it showed (12 months in new French barrels). To be fair, it isn’t horribly over – oaked, but it certainly is made in a style that I don’t care for, with its fairly low acid, creamy vanilla, pear, maple syrup and crème brulee character. It’s described as “Conundrum – styled,” and while I might like this a little more than the Caymus white blend, that’s not saying a whole lot. Served with a green salad, I suppose it’s pleasant enough, if not my cup o’ tea… The three reds presented in the main event were served blind, pre – poured before we were seated. We sniffed and sipped some while waiting for the main entrée to be served; I chose a medium rare filet mignon with a side of polenta. The food was excellent, and paired very nicely with all three wines. Wine #1: This is one of those great “breakfast wines;” it’s all coffee and toast on the nose. Flavors echo, very dry and all silky smooth, and it gains some tobacco nuances as it opens. Initially, it seemed the most fruit forward of the three, but that changed as these all evolved in the glass over an hour or so. Still, it was my favorite of the presentation, luscious and opulent, and drinking amazingly well already. Wine #2: The nose here is less ebullient than the first selection, featuring toasty oak, black fruit and just a hint of a coffee – like nuance. The flavors are more in the sweet black currant, cassis spectrum, and it also gains a little tobacco with air. It continues to sweeten as it opens, with a fairly long finish, and what I first noted as a judicious kiss of oak turning into a big wet smooch, not that that’s such a bad thing in this case. Wine #3: This showed sweet oak, chocolate and cherry on the nose at first, making one wonder if perhaps it might not be from the Napa appellation, but very dry flavors (the driest of the three) of tobacco, black currant and cassis, argued against that, even as it opens more and more. While I wouldn’t call it austere, I would call it the most reserved wine here, with a lovely, if less outgoing personality than the others, and a silky smooth texture. As I tasted through these again and again, it became increasingly obvious which was the Rubicon, and I was able to correctly name the order of these as presented. (I have to admit, my differentiation between the two 1st Growths was based on nothing more than a taste of the ’94 Mouton some years ago, which featured a similar “burnt toast and coffee” profile.) Wine #1: 2000 Château Mouton Rothschild Pauillac Wine #2: 2000 Niebaum – Coppola Rubicon Wine #3: 2000 Château Haut – Brion Pessac – Léognan So, did the Rubicon stand up to the big dogs from Bordeaux? I would say that it did, for the most part, although it was increasingly obvious as to which of the three it was. Consisting of 93% Cabernet Sauvignon, 3% Petite Verdot, 2% Merlot and 2% Cabernet Franc, and weighing in at 14.4% alcohol, it saw 28 months in 93% new French oak, but seems to have the fruit to soak it up quite well, all the more impressive considering the vintage. I’ve seen it priced at $120 at one local retailer hereabouts, so it doesn’t come cheap, and the dollar differential may not mean much to someone who prefers great Bordeaux, come hell or high water. But if you like the big California cabs, this is certainly a very good one, IMNSHO. I’d sure like to get my tricksy handses on a few more of those Moutons though… Reporting from Day-twah, geo t.