Fat Guy

My feeling is that it's more than a battle; it's the war. The only significant group of people that could be willing to pay a premium for New York wines would be New Yorkers (and I'm not sure even they are). Nationally and internationally, which was the concern raised at the beginning of this topic, why would anybody else be willing to pay that premium other than as an occasional novelty expenditure? It's not like there are New York dishes that call for the special terroir of New York wines. New York wine is not relevant to the restaurants and dishes from New York that are emulated elsewhere in the world. In order to sell New York wine to someone in California, you probably need to be able to make a pure value argument rather than a novelty or home-team argument. The last time I was on Long Island, just before it got cold out, we visited the Lieb Family Cellars. It was a party, mostly for vendors, up at the big house, so we got to taste a range of wines. I enjoyed the range of offerings, and I wish the Liebs well, but I'm not planning to buy any Lieb wines on my own dime unless I do some sort of New York themed event. Otherwise the values I can get for <$10 out of many other regions are in my mind superior to those I can get for >$20 from Long Island.

I think it's important to distinguish between good and good for the price, also known as value. In media and industry settings, I've tasted dozens of good wines from New York, although never a great one if by great we're talking about Conterno, Lafite and Grange. I've been out to some Long Island vineyards, they've been very nice, and I've tasted some good wines in their tasting rooms. And then I've looked at the prices. For the most part, a New York wine is going to be expensive for its quality level. This is understandable from a cost-of-inputs standpoint: it's a lot more expensive to grow wine in New York than in California. But in order for it to be understandable from a consumer standpoint, there needs to be something in the bottle that justifies paying more. I just don't see that very often.

One thing you'll find if you read, for example, the reports on Per Se by our members, is that we're not necessarily talking about diminishing returns. Many of those who have posted here about Per Se have not only said that Per Se is worth it but also that it is a great value. And I've got to agree that what Per Se gives you for $150 -- all the premium ingredients, all the great preparations, all that service in those luxurious surroundings, not to mention the generous avalanche of extras before, during and after the main meal -- makes a lot of $85 meals look like total ripoffs. In the parallel above, Per Se isn't the $10,000 system. It's the $2,000 system. But it doesn't cost $2,000. It costs $150. And the most expensive restaurants out there cost around $300. It's just not very much money compared to what people spend on -- as Daddy-A mentioned -- sports tickets, no less on completely worthless luxury items like diamonds.

$79.99

Yes. I haven't been to the Manhattan branch yet.

Uncle Jack's in Bayside.

The risotto is the most expensive appetizer at $19, the reason being that it's the one dish with a significant truffle kick (as well as all those wild mushrooms). Appetizers begin at $11 for oxtail consomme with sherry and raviolini, $12 for the Cafe Gray salad, and $13 for lobster chowder with mussels, crabmeat, and lovage oil (a wonderful dish). The short rib is tied for most expensive entree at $34 (same as the warm lobster salad). It has a high food cost because as I understand it it's an entire set of short ribs with all the bones, sinew, etc., carefully removed, that is then shaped around a single bone so as to give the appearance of a single paleolithic short rib. Entrees begin at $24 for rice-crusted fluke with spinach and preserved lemons (based loosely on the red-rice crusted snapper that was often on the Lespinasse menu). A conservative food order -- not the cheapest, but economy-oriented -- of lobster chowder ($13), fluke ($24), and apple croustade for dessert ($13) gets you a very strong three course meal for $50. If you aim at the high end of the menu and go for risotto ($19), short rib ($34), and cheese ($16) you're talking about $69 as the ceiling for three courses from the menu -- still cheaper than, say, Gramercy Tavern at $72 prix fixe for three courses (plus $8-$10 supplement if you want lobster or foie gras). What you do with alcohol and such is of course going to make a big difference to the bottom line, at most any restaurant.

I didn't rate a place at the slkinsey Thanksgiving table, but was permitted after much review of my petition to sit in a corner on a three legged stool the next day and sample a few leftovers. A single brulee from the "Brussels Sprouts Four Ways" dish remained, as did K's apple pie, E's chocolate truffles, and S's bread pudding. All were superb. Tomorrow I am to be permitted a taste of cheesecake, or so I'm told.

A couple of years ago a magazine called Foodie launched in the US and failed after its second issue.

Tony Fortuna was the Maitre d' and manager at Lespinasse when it first opened, and is now a restaurateur in his own right (Lenox, on the Upper East Side). He's also a close friend of Gray Kunz. He told the New York Times recently, "I kept telling him [Kunz] to do something, like Jean-Georges did with Jo Jo when he left Lafayette." More about Tony Fortuna: http://www.lenoxroom.com/fortuna.html

No, no, it was a reasonable question. And I don't know that it will happen. All I know is that Kunz would jump at the opportunity if, after stabilizing Cafe Gray into a profitable and excellent enterprise, he felt he could have a shot at a four-star kitchen of his own. My feeling, and this was confirmed by a comment Tony Fortuna made to the New York Times, is that Kunz is pursuing the same strategy that Jean-Georges Vongerichten pursued after leaving Lafayette. Vongerichten opened Jo Jo. It was only later, after building the foundations of a new empire, that he got the backing to open Jean Georges. I hope to see Kunz 10 years from now having a number of restaurants covering the range from snack kiosks (these are planned for next year in Time Warner), to maybe a couple of brasseries (or something on the level of Spice Market, but owned by him), to the upscale cafe concept of Cafe Gray, to a Michelin three-star luxe-modern place along the lines of what Lever House might have been if the Kunz deal had gone through there. I doubt he'll ever proliferate to the Vongerichten or Nobu scale, but Kunz is only 49 years old and has plenty of ambition remaining.

This is exactly the point of Cafe Gray, as Peter Kaminsky (Kunz's co-author on his cookbook) reported in New York Magazine:

Gray Kunz's long-term plans, if Cafe Gray is successful, certainly involve opening other restaurants including a signature Lespinasse-level fine-dining establishment. He's told me as much on more than one occasion, and makes no secret of it. That Cafe Gray is not that signature Lespinasse-level fine-dining establishment is no insult to Cafe Gray. That's not what Cafe Gray is supposed to be. Restaurants need to be evaluated both against universal benchmarks (quality of ingredients, skill of execution of codified techniques) and against what they set out to achieve (is this a burger joint, a bistro/brasserie, an upscale cafe, or a fine-dining restaurant aiming for four stars). Cafe Gray accomplishes what it sets out to achieve, which is the highest compliment for most any restaurant that sets out to achieve serious results.

The "brasserie" area up front is open for breakfast pastries from 7:30-11. Full breakfast won't be available for some time. Lunch service begins December 7. Ajay, I don't want to discourage you, because my recent meal at Cafe Gray was quite excellent, but my belief is that going to Cafe Gray in search of "the Lespinasse experience" is a recipe for disappointment. Cafe Gray is not Lespinasse. Cafe Gray is Cafe Gray. Those who experience Cafe Gray for what it is will almost invariably be happier than those who try to game it so as to make it like Lespinasse Reloaded. There are, to be sure, several Lespinasse-like dishes on the menu. In addition to the risotto and short rib, there's the rice crusted fluke. And the style of every dish represents Gray Kunz's far-ranging, eclectic style. If you ate at Lespinasse on 10 different occasions, Kunz could produce new dishes most every time. Many of the Cafe Gray dishes would have been at home on Lespinasse menus. But things are definitely toned down a level, especially in terms of the luxury ingredients. There are no avalanches of truffles, even though it's truffle season. You won't be showered in caviar and foie gras. The service team, while skilled, is simply not geared up for the kind of dining that people did at Lespinasse. So my heartfelt recommendation to you is to enjoy Cafe Gray on its own terms. Someday Gray Kunz will surely open a signature fine-dining restaurant. Until then, we have Cafe Gray, and there is so much to love about it that it would be a shame to hold it up to an inapplicable yardstick.

I agree that there's ignorance involved. But ignorance can't explain the whole pattern or even most of it (It's hard to interpret language like "haute cuisine imperialist" as anything other than political). I'm also not sure I agree with the "mostly favorable press" assessment. The two most significant reviews to date -- Gourmet and New York Magazine -- have both been quite negative, with the Gourmet review almost in the vicious category. And you have to view that not in a vacuum, but against the benchmark of such a high level restaurant. It's not like some one-star brasserie just opened and the reviews have been mixed. Speaking of which, Ducasse's other restaurant, Mix, received similarly harsh treatment. I really don't think it can be said that the collective media animus against Ducasse has dissipated. Lessened a bit, perhaps, but it's still palpable.

It's not a question of Ducasse's food being subtle, or of unmet expectations, or of a flawed media campaign, or of the occasional error in cooking, or of Americans liking their shellfish cooked to higher temperatures than Europeans prefer. The treatment that Ducasse has received in the United States has been far more insidious. ADNY, which so many educated gourmets will tell you is the best restaurant in the United States, has received the most negative press of any restaurant I know of, ever. Such sector-wide cognitive dissonance can't be explained away as an isolated glitch in the system. What we're seeing is a persistent acting out of a cultural crisis in the food media. The craft of restaurant reviewing is at an all-time low, with nary a critic in sight who has the stature to act as a credible arbiter of taste. Where we had Ruth Reichl, Gael Greene, and David Rosengarten, we now have Frank Bruni, Adam Platt, and Jay Cheshes. This new generation of critics is ill equipped to offer reviews that transcend the kinds of meal-reports that you could find on any number of websites. There's a political dimension as well: the reactions to ADNY have been xenophobic and specifically Francophobic. There are also elements of trendy reverse snobbism (on account of Ducasse's unapologetic luxury) and even trendier anti-corporate rhetoric (the relentless hounding of Ducasse for operating multiple restaurants). No one of these factors is enough to turn the food press against you. You can be French so long as you embrace American dining habits. You can be expensive so long as you figure out ways not to appear too elite and corporate. You can commit a multitude of sins if you're Thomas Keller. But Ducasse is uncompromising, and people hate him for it -- especially because he's the top dog. Luckily, there have since the beginning been a few strong voices arguing on Ducasse's behalf. And over the past 5 years there have been a number of happy conversions. But the ressentiment against Ducasse is still not-so-subtly pervasive. And I'm sure we'll see a resurgence now that, with Delouvrier's arrival, there's reason to re-review the restaurant.

I've now eaten half a pound of this whey cream butter. I am becoming increasingly loyal to the product as the flavors imprint themselves. I had some normal butter in a restaurant and couldn't believe how inferior it was -- and I hasten to add that it was one of the better restaurants in town. I fear a may be slipping from healthy butter fanaticism into unpleasant butter snobbery. Am I destined to become one of those people who lectures others about their butter choices? This is not what I signed up for when I said it was okay to send samples.

Thanks for digging that up, JJ. I'd actually like to get some primary source data, because as I've explained in the past some of Grimes's reporting on prices at ADNY has been questionable, but assuming those figures are correct, the increases are: $145 --> $150 (a 3.4% increase) $160 --> $175 (a 9.4% increase) According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, in order for ADNY to have kept pace with the Consumer Price Index, the price increase should have been: $145 --> $160.75 (a 10.9% increase) $160 --> $177.38 (the same, of course) In other words, measured against a meaningful yardstick, the food prices at ADNY went down slightly between November 2000 and November 2004.

I definitely remember where you work, Todd, and am disappointed but not surprised that your colleagues at Burger King don't perceive the value that ADNY offers. I tasted that wine from Slovenia -- it's called 2000 Santomas "Big Red" -- and enjoyed it quite a bit. But I certainly agree that the wine list at ADNY is painfully overpriced. I don't know that it has increased in price in any appreciable way over time, though. Of course it is hard to quantify wine price increases because they need to be viewed relative to wholesale and auction prices as well as the age of the wines in the cellar. But I think it is most likely the case that both the food and wine prices at ADNY have increased very little or not at all in almost 5 years, while the average fine dining restaurant's prices have gone up somewhat. That's why the price gap between ADNY and the next tier isn't as great now as it was when ADNY opened. Do we have any collectors of old ADNY menus around? I'd love to know some prices over the years. I think I remember the early prix fixe (implemented shortly after opening, when there was individual item pricing for a very brief period) being $165 but I can't remember if that was for 3 or 4 courses (plus all the extras). Now you get 3 courses for $150 or 4 courses for $175. Whether the $165 was for 3 or 4 courses, I just don't see this as much of a change either way -- $10 more or $15 less at the most.

As a factual matter, have the prices risen? Last time I checked, prices had changed not at all or at least not significantly since the day ADNY opened, nearly 5 years ago. It's unfortunate that the Gourmet reviewer's aesthetic sensibility isn't up to the task of reviewing a restaurant at this level, but facts are facts and I'm not sure the claim of any significant price hike (say, more than a 5 or 10 dollar adjustment over a 5 year period) can be substantiated.

Because attacks on ADNY have been standard operating procedure for the American food media since before it even opened, and the Gourmet reviewer has already given a number of hints that he has it in for Ducasse in his review of Ducasse's other New York restaurant, Mix, in which he referred to Ducasse as a "haute cuisine imperialist," and accused Ducasse's European restaurants of "pretentiousness." I'll refrain from further comment until I read the review.

What I'm hearing today is that an unfavorable review of ADNY has just appeared in Gourmet, a predictable but unfortunate occurrence if true. I think the magazine has just arrived to the first wave of subscribers, but I haven't been able to get a copy yet.

And see, my notes say it's avocado. So clearly both members of my family are out to lunch on the composition of that dish. It will be particularly amusing when the pearly thing on top turns out to be a turnip. Of course, we consider eggplant to be a fish in our household.

Ducasse binds the baby squash with duct tape and it grows up into that shape.

Butternut squash.