33 replies to this topic

[slkinsey]

I stumbled across an interesting bit in the NYT Diner's Journal the other day...

A reader writes to ask:

Is it considered poor manners to insist that a waiter write down an order instead of attempting to commit it to memory?

Too many times to count I have sat with my wife and ordered a meal while the waiter diligently listens, but jots down nothing. As he walks away we turn to each other and place bets on how many items will be incorrectly delivered or forgotten completely. While I am often impressed by the talented memory of certain wait staff, these errors happen far too predictably.

Bruni replies that he's "as often as not impressed with the memory of servers who don’t jot down notes. The order is frequently delivered correctly. . . And yet, yes, there are screw-ups clearly caused by a server not taking notes."

I wonder what others think about this? If my party is any larger than a two-top and/or I'm ordering anything more complicated than a burger, I don't really dig it when the waiter doesn't write anything down. And what's the point, anyway? Is this somehow easier for the waiter? Is it supposed to impress me so I'll leave a larger tip?

[LaneL]

When i first trained FOH the server that taught me did everything by memory. I myself am used to making lists for everything as we do in the kitchen, but she just found it easier to not use paper.

[daisy17]

On a deuce I'm not going to worry about it too much, but on a four top? Drives me nuts. You're going to remember apps and entrees and maybe a special instruction AND position numbers? Probably not.

I don't see how it could be easier for a waiter. You have nothing to go back to in the event you've forgotten, or the kitchen messes up or has a question. I think perhaps it's supposed to seem impressive, but to me it's just a source of mild anxiety.

[Florida]

Drives me nuts. Just write the damn order down so I don't have to wait 20 minutes to find out if you screwed it up.

[tsquare]

We ordered one pizza split with two standard combos - one half the pizza was delivered wrong. After she repeated our order back to us. She had to write it down for the kitchen - why not at the table! We ate the pizza and tried a combo we wouldn't have, rather than wait 30 minutes for a new one. She comp'ed us one scoop of ice cream and two spoons.

I am impressed that anyone can remember what we order once they walk away from the table. I can't dial a phone number without looking at it. But I prefer them to write it down at the table. If they don't, I particularly hate it when they go retrieve the kitchen order and say they wrote it down the way it was delivered - and I feel like they are saying I am wrong!

[Holly Moore]

Showmanship! Why step on a server's shtick? Management would have likely put an end to it if the server was screwing up.

[slkinsey]

I wonder how often that "showmanship" backfires? Even if the server gets it 100% correct, I have to believe that a significant percentage of customers are made uneasy by the practice. And if it's less than 100% correct, I have to believe that many customers would be less forgiving than they might be with a server who wrote it down. In tsquare's example, for instance, I would characterize that as "the server's schtick making me pay with a preventable screwup" and leave a low tip.

[Simon_S]

Not a fan. Leads to diner anxiety!

[weinoo]

Interestingly, we had dinner out with 7 people. Waiter didn't write down a thing - but immediately repeated the whole order back to us.

Everything was delivered correctly. Apps, entrees, wine, beers, etc.

[tino27]

While my tip certainly won't increase if you manage to remember the entire order, it will certainly decrease if you get it wrong.

To me this is no different than your business associate who attends meetings and never takes any notes. Some people just have the knack for chunking information very efficiently.

[slkinsey]

More to the point... do servers believe that schtick like this can lead to an increased tip? I'd think that it would more likely result in an overall reduction, because I don't believe it would contribute to an increase in percentage if it's correct. Most people aren't going to reward a server for taking the order hands-free any more than they would if the server juggled the wine glasses. If the steak comes medium-rare as ordered, that's what you expect. On the other hand, I'd think it could lead to decreases in the tip because screwups do happen and customers may be more likely to attribute those mistakes to server error. Even if it was the kitchen that screwed up and cooked my steak to medium-well instead of medium-rare, if the server didn't write it down at the table there will be a good reason to suspect that the server misremembered the order.

Edited by slkinsey, 12 March 2009 - 10:22 AM.

[Holly Moore]

Goblet half full or goblet half empty.

If it happens to me and if I notice it at all, I'll think neat trick. Unless the server has proven him/herself to be otherwise ditsy, I'll enjoy a professional server's style and competence.

Not my job to play parent-child and tell the server, "I don't want you to screw up. Please write our orders down."

[Fat Guy]

The memory trick, as I understand it, goes back to the days when servers submitted the actual written order tickets to kitchens. Memorizing the order allowed the server to step away from the table and write the whole order neatly, something that takes time to do live when people are telling you their orders.

What happens in most restaurants these days when a server takes your order, whether or not it gets written down, is that the server goes over to a POS touch-screen terminal and enters the order with the position numbers, M/F designations, special requests ("SOS"), etc. The ticket then comes out on a little printer in the kitchen.

It's amazing to me that restaurants haven't adopted wireless handheld POS devices more widely.

[Busboy]

I think it's a "class" thing -- a bit of showmanship to differentiate the guy in the suit or silk tie from the diner waitress pulling the pen from behind her ear and scribbling onto the tattered pad. Kind of like serving all the plates at once or pouring icewater with flair.

To FGs point, I think I'd find someone entering my order on a handheld aesthetically jarring and, when people have a "device" in hand, the device always gets more of their attention than you do. On the other hand, pretty much everyone can scratch down an order and still look you in the eye, which is much more pleasant.

Back in the Stone Age, when I worked at a couple of high-end places, we wrote things down and then retreated to a discreet spot to re-write them in handriting that the kitchen could actually read. I never actually wrote an order on a check and turned that directly into the kitchen in any place that had more than ten bottles of wine on their list.

Edited by Busboy, 12 March 2009 - 11:26 AM.

[tino27]

It's amazing to me that restaurants haven't adopted wireless handheld POS devices more widely.

Methinks this might be for three reasons, really.

1) Form factor of a mobile device. Designing a good UI (user interface) for a handheld device is often difficult to do correctly.

2) Longevity of device. Assuming the devices were wireless, you would have to maintain a consistent connection to a base station. This would most likely require wi-fi (most likely) or something like Bluetooth. Both of which are a pretty consistent drain on the battery.
2a) To make matters worse, you'd want to ensure the security of those transmissions and/or prevent unauthorized connections to the base station. Encrypted data means more data to transmit which drains the battery even quicker.

3) Durability. Dropping an order pad from waist height doesn't do a whole lot of damage. Most mobile devices that haven't been ruggedized don't fare as well.

All that being said, I would actually find it kind of cool to find a place that did this. Not to mention if the UI was done correctly, you could allow the server to associate several people's meals under a single check. This way, when you and 7 of your friends go out together, you could get all of the "which check gets which entree" silliness out of the way during the ordering process.

[slkinsey]

fwiw, I've been to any number of restaurants in Europe where the waitstaff used handheld devices to take the order.

[Fat Guy]

Handheld wireless POS technology is already established and implemented at a range of restaurants. I've seen it at big American chain places, and at small Japanese places, in all sorts of formats. It just hasn't jumped to common acceptance.

http://rmpos.com/wir...s_handheld.html

http://www.digitaldi...rdHandBody.html

[paulraphael]

Not a fan. Leads to diner anxiety!

Exactly!

The waiter may end up impressing me by not making any mistakes. But in the mean time, I'll be worrying that he will. I'd rather have the peace of mind.

Edited by paulraphael, 12 March 2009 - 12:31 PM.

[Fat Guy]

I'd be interested to see a study -- perhaps published in the Journal of Totally Useless Studies -- comparing the accuracy of written-down orders to that of memorized orders.

[TheFoodTutor]

The Atlanta location of Legal Sea Foods opened with hand-held devices in use, but they were actually one of the biggest complaints about the place in the beginning. It seems that they were somewhat limiting, in that the server had to take all appetizer orders first, go around the table, then start back at square one for salad orders, then entrees, etc. Of course, this is just a matter of imperfect implementation of a system that could be fixed and I can imagine that this sort of POS could end up working very well at some point in the future. I'm not looking forward to seeing much of it in the very near future, however, since most of my favorite restaurants are struggling so much with meeting the bottom line and staying open in the face of the current recession that any added costs like that will most certainly have to wait for better times.

I am the sort of server who always writes everything down, and at the restaurant where I work, our system of abbreviations is strictly used to the extent that a ticket order can be taken at a table by one server, then handed off to another server standing at the Aloha while the first server tends to other business. It really makes things much more efficient.

Really, it's not like I don't trust my own memory as much as any of those waiters who insist on not writing things down. I have an excellent memory, actually. I just know that writing things down not only provides me with a record of what I heard the guest order, but the simple act of writing it helps me to remember it even better. I suppose I could be vain enough to want everyone to know that I can remember it without writing it down, but I'd rather people just remember me as the server who always gets things right, rather than the one who can do a parlor trick.

[LaneL]

As a kitchen mgr. I last used silverware, the system could have been optimally set up, but even making weekly updates from the inital set up I was unable to make the system run like thefoodtutor was saying. If the right person set one of these systems up from the beginning it could work in a very efficient manner.

[ambra]

As an ex-waiter gulity of NOT writing down orders- unless for large parties, I can assure it has nothing to do with tips or waiter theatrics and everything to do with time- at least for me, or anyone I knew back then. And never, ever in my entire career did I mess up an order because I forgot their order. And I think I can count on one hand the times people asked me why I wasn't writing things down. Remembering an order really isn't brain surgery, it's just a couple of dishes. I can't imagine telling a waiter how to do his job just like I wouldn't tell my doctor, my lawyer, my mechanic how to do their jobs either. Even actors have to remember entire scripts and don't always get a lot of time, some people just have good memories and like anything else practice makes perfect....


For me, working in an extremely busy restaurant it was just a waste of precious time. I write slow, often can't understand my own writing, (as totally pathetic as that it is,) and as Fat Guy pointed out 9 times out of 10 you walked straight over to the POS and punch in the order. I admit that sometimes, I had even taken more than one order by memory before walking to the POS!

I don't mean to sound defensive, I haven't even been a waiter since the 90s even though I remained in the biz. And I am sure there all plenty of waiters that have screwed up orders for this reason. But when I get a waiter who doesn't write things down, I don't think, "What a show-off!" I think, "He's been a waiter a long time." Sadly, those of us who have done it, can often remember all our customers orders in our sleep that night! All these years later, I can still remember what my regulars ordered!


Re: the POS, I know that some restaurants owners I worked for in the past in NYC specifically, thought they were cheesy and would make them look like a chain.

Edited by ambra, 13 March 2009 - 05:05 AM.

[Chris Amirault]

I think Mitch nailed the solution here:

Interestingly, we had dinner out with 7 people.  Waiter didn't write down a thing - but immediately repeated the whole order back to us.

Everything was delivered correctly. Apps, entrees, wine, beers, etc.

Doing this allows the server to correct errors, alleviates diner anxiety, and the show goes on.

[daisy17]

Having the order read back to me stresses me out too.

[Chris Amirault]

Well, sounds like that's going to happen whether the waiter wrote it down or not!

[daisy17]

Well, sounds like that's going to happen whether the waiter wrote it down or not!

huh? I generally derive an enormous amount of pleasure from dining out; stress is not part of that usually. Having the waiter not write an order down is mildly stressful for me (again, not on a deuce, but on a four top or more). When the waiter writes down our order I can during that time enjoy my cocktail or wine, or look around the room, or whatever. When he's not writing it down, I feel like I have to pay much more attention to the whole ordering process. If he doesn't write it down but tries to recite the whole order back before leaving the table we have the same result. I just don't find it relaxing as a diner.

[Fat Guy]

I don't like the readback. It's a waste of my time and only establishes that the server hasn't forgotten anything YET. And if the server is trying to save time by not writing things down, the readback defeats that purpose.

I'm telling you, handheld POS is the solution to this problem and all order-accuracy problems. In New York City, Ryuichi Munekata, who owns Yakitori Totto and several other Japanese restaurants, has been using handheld POS since 2004. The servers have Palm Pilots that seem very capable, and I doubt they make many mistakes. These are by no means tacky chain restaurants. They're more like the restaurants of the future. The most recent place where I've seen handleld POS in use has been, of all things, an upscale pizzeria. The servers there had gray ruggedized units that also printed checks and could accept credit card swipes tableside. Once people become accustomed, as they are in Europe and Asia, to having credit cards swiped at the table they will never be willing to go back to a system where the credit card is taken out of view to have lord-knows-what done to it.

The whole ordering system in most restaurants now is computerized almost end-to-end. The one place where there's a gap in that system is getting the order from the customer's mouth into a computer where it can't get messed up. Servers today, whether they rely on memory or handwriting, are the weak link in the chain of ordering custody. If we even have servers in the future, they will use handheld POS or some other technology to avoid ordering errors. (If we don't have servers we'll just have POS at the table, like in some kaiten-zushi places in Japan.) Customers will get used to it just as people get used to other new and eventually pervasive technologies in other contexts (radio, television, computer, cell phone, etc.). Maybe there will be some 1990s theme restaurants where you pay extra to have them write orders on paper or memorize them, and every dish has mango sauce. Maybe very fancy restaurants will still kick it old school. But everybody else will and should use labor-saving, error-reducing technology so orders don't get screwed up either from bad memory or bad handwriting.

[prasantrin]

The most efficient ordering system I've used was a table-top touch screen. No worry about someone writing down the wrong order or forgetting it. We just selected what we wanted, and waited for our food to arrive. This was, of course, in Japan.

[paulraphael]

I love seeing waiters with the handheld POS deals. Before this discussion, it hadn't crossed my mind that it would improve accuracy, but the speed advantages were always obvious. There's no waiting for the waiter to shuffle all the way across the dining room, past annoying distractions (like other tables full of hungry, attention-hogging diners). I know that before the waiter asks what I want for dessert, my dumpling order has been zapped to the kitchen at the speed of light. Bliss.

[Mattmvb]

Fascinating discussion

Bar tending has always been my "thing", but like many people in this business I've also spent a lot of time on the restaurant floor.

When working as a waiter I would never have dreamt of taking an order by memory. Reading this thread has just made me realise that's a bit odd.

Behind the bar I would more than happily take orders for very large rounds in one, hopefully quick, order then make them all and tot up the total price in my head whilst doing so. Or alternatively 4 or 5 different small orders simultaneously and have no problems remembering who ordered what. Plus remembering what everyone had earlier so you can offer "the same again?" It takes a bit of time to learn, but it's as much an essential skill as knowing how to make a good martini.

Surely that's not much different to remembering the orders from a smallish table? Is the only real difference that one is expected and the other frowned upon?

Cheers,

Matt