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Women in the Kitchen at Home


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Right now, I have a high paying technical job that I enjoy.  But someday I want to have children, and stay at home to raise them and keep house, with a husband who supports me in this.  I worry sometimes that I won't find someone whose vision matches mine.  I worry that men my age see partnerships like marriage as a math equation adding our two incomes. 

I like the idea of "care-work", very much. And I can understand your concerns about finding someone whose vision matches yours. I even like (no, love) the idea of the Goddess of Home and Hearth, who figured often in ancient literature.

On the other hand, it does feel as if the fact should be mentioned that stay-at-home Moms (care-workers, those who cook in the kitchen as well as do the many other tasks of the household, which costs when added up as they do in the financial sections of newspapers each year can total the equivalent salary if paid to others of close to one million dollars a year - Yay Moms! ) (or Dads, too, if they happen to be doing full time "care-work") leave themselves at risk in terms of their financial future (and then, obviously it would also be their children's future) if they happen to divorce, or if they happen to want to re-enter the work force at some point, at the same level they enjoyed previous to leaving it for undertaking "care-work". So it definitely is a trade-off and definitely a sort of risk, for those that have enjoyed the pleasures and the benefits of a high-level professionalism in some field.

Ha! Have we created a "Cook at your own risk" (as care-giver) world? :biggrin:

Edited by Carrot Top (log)
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This is a great topic and I love the responses.

I cook because of love. I have always been taught that what you send out into the world is what you will get out of life. And at the same time, I believe that when you love somebody, you don't do things because you are adding them up on a balance sheet, but just to show you care.

I love to cook for my children, my friends, and myself. I would happily cook for a boyfriend or spouse if I had one. It was wonderful to cook for my sister and brother in law and nephew when they stayed with me.

So I love to cook. When I have too much, I share with the neighbors or people at church or work. Sometimes I find myself unable to sleep at 3 am and I bake a cake to take to work because I like my job.

As I was growing up, my mother and father both cooked. They had different styles, but it was all good. When they got divorced, my mother started teaching me how to cook. I have to admit I wasn't too interested until I got a place of my own. I got much more interested when I got married and started having children.

Now that my daughter has moved out, I love that she calls me once a week and asks "what's for dinner?" Sometimes she asks if I will fix her something she particularly likes. It is a great comfort to me that she feels secure in our relationship and wants to come home. She is also starting to learn to cook.

My son will go off on a mission for church in a few months, and he already loves to cook. He too sees it as an expression of love. He doesn't expect that his wife will know how to cook when they get married (I tried to prepare him for the realities of today). He looks forward to cooking for her and he wants somebody who sees the idea of domestic skills as a way to grow together by caring for one another.

I personally am looking forward to the time when I cook more often just for myself at dinner. I am excited to re-learn and redefine my skills in the kitchen. I am also looking forward to throwing parties where I can cook for friends.

Recently, a group of friends and I started a cooking club. Once a month we get together and discuss things we want to know more about. Last night we went to the store and talked about cuts of beef and how to cook them. It was so fun to watch two people who professed not to like meat tell me they want more. I love that they invite me to their houses and then let me cook my way.

I think that any time we find something we enjoy and use it to bring joy to the lives' of others, we become better in the process.

Thanks you Karen for helping me think all this through.

Ellen

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I think that any time we find something we enjoy and use it to bring joy to the lives' of others, we become better in the process.

Ellen, it is you and others who are helping *me* think this through. :biggrin: And I can not tell you how very moved I've been by each one of the responses.

One of my own peculiar problems to resolve for myself involves what you quoted above. Yes, I do believe this with all my heart. But then again, with cooking and how I use it to show love, it sort of backfired badly once in my life, and I am still feeling the repercussions and trying to find a way out or around them. The instance was that I married someone who appeared to be a fine person but who turned out have a scumbag hidden within, and I did not discover that fact for a number of years. So each day, for these years, I cooked for him. I applied myself to creating a happiness through food for him (and of course in any other way I could think of). The foods he liked were not mostly the sorts I would prefer, but that really didn't matter to me . . . as you say above, it is about using something we enjoy to bring joy to the lives of others. And after a number of years I discovered that I was feeding my love in daily bites on the dinner table to someone who was not who he pretended he was - someone whose idea of "love" was quite a confused one. Someone who was a selfish, conniving, liar. Yes, strong words. And true. The answer is, of course, that I made a wrong choice in terms of person-to-feed, person-to-bring-joy-to. But I have to tell you, it threw me for a real loop. And since cooking is what I do mostly (or did mostly) as expression and as profession, the idea, the feeling that is involved with cooking took the hit. It has been stung badly by this thing. It is not what it was.

Then of course my mother's ideas of feminism come into the picture, hovering there saying "I told you so. You fed him rather than feeding yourself."

...................................................................................

In thinking of how I feed my children after reading these many posts, the emotion there for me, is devotion. Loving spoons of devotion each day, but of course devotion is a quiet thing, and devotion takes patience. It is not generally as loudly passionate as some other emotions. I'm really glad to have this sense of devotion. Really, really glad. :smile: But I'd still like to try to clear up the other stuff if possible, for the good name of cooking in my life. :wink:

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In thinking of how I feed my children after reading these many posts, the emotion there for me, is devotion. Loving spoons of devotion each day, but of course devotion is a quiet thing, and devotion takes patience. It is not generally as loudly passionate as some other emotions. I'm really glad to have this sense of devotion. Really, really glad.  :smile:

"devotion" :wub: may indeed be the operative word in this discussion?

In the original post of this thread I was quoted on the subject of my own Mother's sudden abandonment of cooking upon the death of my Father last year. I've been hoping elaborate on this aspect of the discussion but struggled to find the right words.

Your use and description of "devotion" as it applies to cooking is giving me a lot to think about and, hopefully, to soon write about.

THANX SB

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One of my own peculiar problems to resolve for myself involves what you quoted above. Yes, I do believe this with all my heart. But then again, with cooking and how I use it to show love, it sort of backfired badly once in my life, and I am still feeling the repercussions and trying to find a way out or around them. The instance was that I married someone who appeared to be a fine person but who turned out have a scumbag hidden within, and I did not discover that fact for a number of years. So each day, for these years, I cooked for him. I applied myself to creating a happiness through food for him (and of course in any other way I could think of). The foods he liked were not mostly the sorts I would prefer, but that really didn't matter to me . . . as you say above, it is about using something we enjoy to bring joy to the lives of others. And after a number of years I discovered that I was feeding my love in daily bites on the dinner table to someone who was not who he pretended he was - someone whose idea of "love" was quite a confused one. Someone who was a selfish, conniving, liar. Yes, strong words. And true. The answer is, of course, that I made a wrong choice in terms of person-to-feed, person-to-bring-joy-to. But I have to tell you, it threw me for a real loop. And since cooking is what I do mostly (or did mostly) as expression and as profession, the idea, the feeling that is involved with cooking took the hit. It has been stung badly by this thing. It is not what it was.

Then of course my mother's ideas of feminism come into the picture, hovering there saying "I told you so. You fed him rather than feeding yourself."

Oh Karen, I can't tell you how much my heart goes out to you. I know this feeling. I chose to give myself, my talents, my time, my heart like this twice. Both times I was shredded by the things I learned about the men I had chosen. And more importantly, by the way they used the gifts I gave them to hurt me and my children. So when I say that I empathize with what you are feeling, I really mean it. I have only recently learned that I don't lose anything by giving a gift - especially a gift as personal and wonderful as food. Now I understand why your starting this thread touched me so much. I had not thought about this aspect. I have to say now that I do it in part as an act of defiance. I am good at this and some people do appreciate it. And I am not responsible for the ones who don't appreciate my cooking or me for that matter. I guess I continue to do it in part because it affirms to me part of who I am.

One of the things I enjoy about reading all of your posts is the way you share yourself while we "talk" about food.

Thank you.

Ellen

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Your use and description of "devotion" as it applies to cooking is giving me a lot to think about and, hopefully, to soon write about.

I look forward very much to reading what you write about, SB.

I am good at this and some people do appreciate it.  And I am not responsible for the ones who don't appreciate my cooking or me for that matter.  I guess I continue to do it in part because it affirms to me part of who I am.

One of the things I enjoy about reading all of your posts is the way you share yourself while we "talk" about food.

Yes, I am sure that when you share the things you cook it is much appreciated, Ellen. And food is very affirming, isn't it. :smile:

I talk about my life because I am very curious about other peoples lives. Everyone has a story, don't they - whether they believe they do or not. :wink: And food has to be a big part of anyone's story, again, whether they believe it or not. For where would we all be without it? :biggrin:

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Look what Daniel said over on the dinner thread:

"Word word.. The dinner thread hit a million?? I think thats pretty amazing. Thats a million times people have shared the things they made for their family and the special people and times in their lives.. Such great memories we have saved forever."

Kind of sums up a lot of our feelings, now doesn't it?

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I like the idea of "care-work", very much. And I can understand your concerns about finding someone whose vision matches yours. I even like (no, love) the idea of the Goddess of Home and Hearth, who figured often in ancient literature. 

None of us so far have used explicitly spiritual terms, but many of have implied them in the things we've had to say here. I run the risk of sounding cheesy and melodramatic if I say much more. Suffice it to say that your words resonate.

On the other hand, it does feel as if the fact should be mentioned that stay-at-home Moms (care-workers, those who cook in the kitchen as well as do the many other tasks of the household, which costs when added up as they do in the financial sections of newspapers each year can total the equivalent salary if paid to others of close to one million dollars a year - Yay Moms! ) (or Dads, too, if they happen to be doing full time "care-work") leave themselves at risk in terms of their financial future (and then, obviously it would also be their children's future) if they happen to divorce, or if they happen to want to re-enter the work force at some point, at the same level they enjoyed previous to leaving it for undertaking "care-work". So it definitely is a trade-off and definitely a sort of risk, for those that have enjoyed the pleasures and the benefits of a high-level professionalism in some field.

Ha! Have we created a "Cook at your own risk" (as care-giver) world?  :biggrin:

There is no reward without risk, yes? Mom told me once what a difficult decision it was for her to quit her job and stay home to raise my brother and I. I tell her often that I am so glad she did.

"Nothing you could cook will ever be as good as the $2.99 all-you-can-eat pizza buffet." - my EX (wonder why he's an ex?)

My eGfoodblog: My corner of the Midwest

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My understanding of feminism is that it calls for women (and men) to have the power and freedom to choose what one will do or to find out, by effort, training, etc., what one is able to do, as opposed to be told: this is what women/men do, you can't do what the other sex does, that's how it is (not unlike a class based society). So a man should have the choice to stay at home and raise his kids and a woman to be a research scientist, without having to struggle with a great deal of negative peer and/or societal pressure to behave otherwise; that both sexes should have the pleasure of doing well what he/she likes to do w/out having that pleasure spoiled or even ruined by guilt for liking it (because you're "unnatural" to do so) or being good at it instead of whatever tradition or the culture says you're "supposed" to do and like doing. If a woman wants to stay home w/the kids and she and her partner/spouse can afford for her to do so, why not?

It has happened that "women's work" has been work that is poorly paid (and sometimes it's because women are doing it) pretty often . It is certainly not unheard of for women to be paid less for doing the same job that the man in the next office is doing, or in the next MD's office.

My college roomate taught me to cook--beginner's version of stir fry. That, sandwiches and lots of baking for a year or two when I lived with and near students who liked to eat what I baked. My former roommate (still a friend) told me last year that until she met me, she didn't know that anyone could learn to cook from a book--since that's what I did after she got me started.

Carrot Top and EllenC, I'm sorry for what happened to you. It happened to a friend of mine, who, among other talents, is a good cook/baker. I was around during her horrible and lengthy divorce, her confidence was greatly shaken and the family disrupted much more severely then was necessary. On the other hand, her (their) son, despite his father's neglect, is doing well and is a pretty good cook too.

Sometimes, cooking and kitchen clean up can help you find out about important aspects of someone's personality, before you become deeply involved.

While I was in college, my bf and I decided to trade cooking and cleaning for an evening--one evening he'd cook dinner, I'd clean up, next night, vice versa (it's a long time ago, but I think it was his idea). We both lived in dorms (in suites, not hall dorm), so these dinners involved persuading our suitemates to leave for awhile, etc.

First night, he cooks, it's pretty good, I clean up. Second night, I cook, we eat, he seems to like the food. Time is slipping by, soon my roommates will be back, but the bf seems strangely reluctant to start cleaning up. Finally, I ask him outright, "when are you going to clean up? My roommates will be back soon, things are supposed to be clean and out of the way by the time they get back." He hems and haws for awhile, tries to put me off, but eventually it comes out: he never really meant to do clean up. He was sure that I would do it, somehow, even though he'd said he would, I was supposed to understand, well, I'm not sure what I was supposed to "understand." That men don't have to clean up even if they say they will, because it's just not something men "do"? Because it's "women's work"?

I blew up, he cleaned up, our relationship started going downhill as of then. If I'd been smarter, I would've dumped him then and there.

Since then, I've dated good cooks, non-cooks, and at least two divorced men who were gradually learning to cook and I think were enjoying themselves although each guy was still pretty shy about offering a dinner he cooked himself. My impression was that neither guy had cooked much during his marriage(s). No man I've dated/had a relationship w/since then has been as big a jerk as that first college bf. Not in the kitchen, anyway.

azurite

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First night, he cooks, it's pretty good, I clean up.  Second night, I cook, we eat, he seems to like the food.  Time is slipping by, soon my roommates will be back, but the bf seems strangely reluctant to start cleaning up.  Finally, I ask him outright, "when are you going to clean up?  My roommates will be back soon, things are supposed to be clean and out of the way by the time they get back."  He hems and haws for awhile, tries to put me off, but eventually it comes out: he never really meant to do clean up.  He was sure that I would do it, somehow, even though he'd said he would, I was supposed to understand, well, I'm not sure what I was supposed to "understand."  That men don't have to clean up even if they say they will, because it's just not something men "do"?  Because it's "women's work"? 

I blew up, he cleaned up, our relationship started going downhill as of then.  If I'd been smarter, I would've dumped him then and there.     

That guy, definitely a douche. That's all.

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First night, he cooks, it's pretty good, I clean up.  Second night, I cook, we eat, he seems to like the food.  Time is slipping by, soon my roommates will be back, but the bf seems strangely reluctant to start cleaning up.  Finally, I ask him outright, "when are you going to clean up?  My roommates will be back soon, things are supposed to be clean and out of the way by the time they get back."  He hems and haws for awhile, tries to put me off, but eventually it comes out: he never really meant to do clean up.  He was sure that I would do it, somehow, even though he'd said he would, I was supposed to understand, well, I'm not sure what I was supposed to "understand."  That men don't have to clean up even if they say they will, because it's just not something men "do"?  Because it's "women's work"? 

I blew up, he cleaned up, our relationship started going downhill as of then.  If I'd been smarter, I would've dumped him then and there.     

That guy, definitely a douche. That's all.

Indeed. I hope I was never perceived as that cat when in my younger years, but it saddens me that I might have been on occasion. :unsure:

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I cook for my guy. But I love it too. I think in the end it makes things less complicated because I am vegan and he is not so I can plan things around each other. In my opinion, if you know you can help someone take better care of themselves by stepping in, than do it. When I cook, I know my boyfriend will get a nutritious and balanced meal. Also, it's my way of showing how much I appreciate everything he does for me. I don't think it is degrading to myself as a woman either. For a good portion of my life my mother did all the cooking and eventually my father took over because their work schedules made if more convenient for Dad to take care of the meals. Whatever makes the household work I guess...

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I do ALL of the cooking at our house (which often includes two menus... since my wife is vegeatrian). I also do most of the cleaning, and all of the shopping, laundry and garden chores.

Since my wife works four ten hour days, and I do several part time gigs, (including cooking), I'm totally fine with being a house husband. I love getting showered with praise when she comes home to a clean house and a great dinner. Even when I'm busy, I get off on doing something quick and delicious for her dinner. I also entertain regularly (often combining business and pleasure), which works very wel. We always get alot done, and everyone has a great time, for a fraction of what it would cost at a restaurant.

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Karen: Thank you for asking thought-provoking questions. It grieves me to think that your ex has tainted your devotion to preparing food for those that you love. It is easy to say that his actions should not reflect upon you, but I realize that feelings do not necessarily follow the same timetable as understanding.

Our family cooking patterns have changed dramatically over the years. Initially, my wife and I shared the cooking pretty evenly. While I was in grad school and the boys entered our lives, she became the primary cook. Lately, we have switched roles and I make most of our meals. We share cleanup duties.

I cook to please the family and any guests that show up at dinner time. Cooking for others provides a great deal of satisfaction, but does impose some constraints. I try to foster appreciation for (or at least tolerance of) the foods that I love, but I would be mortified to make a meal that no one else enjoyed.

Honesty compels me to admit that I also cook for selfish reasons – cooking is a fascinating lifelong experiment. Fortunately, our family members (and most of our friends) are willing research subjects.

Edited by C. sapidus (log)
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Ellen, it is you and others who are helping *me* think this through.  :biggrin: And I can not tell you how very moved I've been by each one of the responses.

One of my own peculiar problems to resolve for myself involves what you quoted above. Yes, I do believe this with all my heart. But then again, with cooking and how I use it to show love, it sort of backfired badly once in my life, and I am still feeling the repercussions and trying to find a way out or around them. The instance was that I married someone who appeared to be a fine person but who turned out have a scumbag hidden within, and I did not discover that fact for a number of years. So each day, for these years, I cooked for him. I applied myself to creating a happiness through food for him (and of course in any other way I could think of). The foods he liked were not mostly the sorts I would prefer, but that really didn't matter to me . . . as you say above, it is about using something we enjoy to bring joy to the lives of others. And after a number of years I discovered that I was feeding my love in daily bites on the dinner table to someone who was not who he pretended he was - someone whose idea of "love" was quite a confused one. Someone who was a selfish, conniving, liar. Yes, strong words. And true. The answer is, of course, that I made a wrong choice in terms of person-to-feed, person-to-bring-joy-to. But I have to tell you, it threw me for a real loop. And since cooking is what I do mostly (or did mostly) as expression and as profession, the idea, the feeling that is involved with cooking took the hit. It has been stung badly by this thing. It is not what it was.

Then of course my mother's ideas of feminism come into the picture, hovering there saying "I told you so. You fed him rather than feeding yourself."

...................................................................................

In thinking of how I feed my children after reading these many posts, the emotion there for me, is devotion. Loving spoons of devotion each day, but of course devotion is a quiet thing, and devotion takes patience. It is not generally as loudly passionate as some other emotions. I'm really glad to have this sense of devotion. Really, really glad.  :smile: But I'd still like to try to clear up the other stuff if possible, for the good name of cooking in my life.  :wink:

There's so much beautiful writing in this thread!

Carrot Top, I'm sorry that you were hurt so badly. Your post made me think of how I've devoted time and wasted wistful daydreams on men who didn't care about me as much as I cared about them. (I was stupid when I was young, what can I say?) It's a little thing, but I'm proud of myself - and take it as a sign of growth - that I recently did not give a pan of cinnamon buns to a guy I have a crush on. He's a very nice person. But he's not a good friend and I believe I gained more real satisfaction from sharing with other friends and co-workers (I love the ppl I work with) than from trying to impress my crush and start showering him with gifts.

I think I took my mother's cooking for granted when I was growing up. Now that I'm on my own, I find I think about her food a lot. Not only do I miss her cooking, but I realize now how much she expressed her love for her family thru food. For women of her generation and culture (1st generation Korean), cooking was her job bc she was the woman, but no one made her imbue it with so much love.

Edited by sun (log)
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Great thread-- thanks to all for your contributions.

I'm 40. I consider myself a feminist. I am a professor, as is my husband. I do all of the household cooking. Husband does all of the table setting/clearing/dishes. We have two small children (5 and 2). Husband does fully half the childcare, and is a fantastic dad, even if brushing daughter's hair perplexes him no end. We divide up all other household chores. Seems like an equitable arrangement, and feels like it much of the time.

However, when I examine things, there are nuances that sometimes bother me. I like to cook very much, when I have time to do so. Working full time, I am often rushed trying to get a meal on the table by 6:30 before the kids go into complete meltdown mode. I find that my enjoyment of cooking is maximized when I am not rushed, and I know that the people I cook for will appreciate (or at least not hate) the dinner. Nightly family dinners wear me out. Son is very picky, and would be happy to consume yogurt, hot dogs, cheetos and cereal every day for the rest of his life. Most dinners I cook induce an elaborate display of distaste on his part. Daughter (2) is more adventurous, but is subject to the whims of a two year old. Husband grew up having his mom make the basic three part dinner every night-- hunk 'o' meat, hunk 'o' veggie, and hunk 'o' starch. Booorrriing. :rolleyes:

Here's some thoughts. My mom was (is) mentally ill. She stayed home, but didn't cook, clean or do any traditional "mom" things. Dinner was rummaged from the 'fridge and eaten in front of the tv each night. Husband had the sit around the table, no tv experience each night. So we all sit down to dinner at the table and I serve dinner every night. Seems like a good idea, as long as I make something everyone likes. I find myself thinking, "My children are getting good meals with a much wider range of ingredients than I ever got as a kid. I'm showing them love by providing this." But then I get really ticked off at times when the reaction seems to be "YUCK!" to most things I cook from my kids, who would, it seems, rather be eating the crap that I grew up with in front of the TV.

I also find that I modify what I would like to make for my husband's tastes. I see that I make stuff that I don't like fairly often because I know he likes it. I rarely make something that I like but he doesn't. I wonder why. Is this love? Some sense of a woman's duty? Is it just because I want someone to actually eat what I cook? I don't know for sure.

I know that I love to cook for people who will appreciate what I make, but am more ambivalent when I know that people won't really care. Does this make me selfish? Unwomanlike? Or just human?

Finally, on those nights when I don't want to cook, why is it always me who has to actually ask husband to cook or get take-out. Why can't he offer? Why is dinner always my responsibility? Is this because he's a chauvenist? (he rarely exhibits any signs of chauvenism) Because he's 46 and his mom is very traditional? Or just because dinner is my area?

I don't have great answers to this stuff. I have read all kinds of academic literature on women's roles, feminist issues, even home cooking (I'm an anthropologist/folklorist). But I still struggle with these issues myself.

-Rinsewind

"An' I expect you don't even know that we happen to produce some partic'ly fine wines, our Chardonnays bein' 'specially worthy of attention and compet'tively priced, not to mention the rich, firmly structur'd Rusted Dunny Valley Semillons, which are a tangily refreshin' discovery for the connesewer ...yew bastard?"

"Jolly good, I'll have a pint of Chardonnay, please."

Rincewind and Bartender, The Last Continent by Terry Pratchett

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It's a little thing, but I'm proud of myself - and take it as a sign of growth - that I recently did not give a pan of cinnamon buns to a guy I have a crush on.  He's a very nice person.  But he's not a good friend and I believe I gained more real satisfaction from sharing with other friends and co-workers (I love the ppl I work with) than from trying to impress my crush and start showering him with gifts.

My parents occasionally send me delicious pecans from home (Louisiana) which they usually pick themselves from a friend or relative's tree and my dad cracks and cleans by hand. I do not share these pecans with just anyone. A friend of mine from Texas who also gets pecans from home says that one must be "pecan-worthy" to partake in the good stuff. Everyone else gets Planters.

But then I get really ticked off at times when the reaction seems to be "YUCK!" to most things I cook from my kids...

This may seem extreme, but I absolutely do not tolerate this word (Yuck) at the dinnertime. It is an offense worthy of a time-out for my 4yo, who is learning to either say nothing and nudge the morsel to the side of her plate or say "I don't care for any, thank you."

This thread is giving me a lot to mull over, as I've recently had a few weeks of not wanting to cook. I've been preoccupied with family illnesses and life changes and just haven't wanted to muster the energy for the planning, etc. But this week, I've picked up my spoon again, and it just feels right.

I cook for all of us (hubby, daughter and son) on some level -- trying to incorporate preferences (mainly mine and husband's as daughter's are too limited and son's a toddler).

I find my joy of cooking and care about quality ingredients to be downright subversive to mainstream culture. Those of us here, presumably, enjoy cooking or at least partaking of quality cooking. I don't know that there's anything particularly female about all that. Our culture has just bought into the processed food industry's schtick that cooking is boring and tedious and time consuming. It's sad that so many people choose to cheat themselves of a better quality of living that doesn't really cost more (and often costs less) than the alternative shoved down our throats by so much advertising.

And as for division of labor in my home, I cook (hubby rarely cooks, mainly because I'm a control freak and know I can do it better) and hubby cleans up. I like it that way. :wink: He's a decent prep-cook and we are a fabulous team when entertaining.

Bridget Avila

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Great thread-- thanks to all for your contributions.

But then I get really ticked off at times when the reaction seems to be "YUCK!" to most things I cook from my kids, who would, it seems, rather be eating the crap that I grew up with in front of the TV.

I also find that I modify what I would like to make for my husband's tastes. I see that I make stuff that I don't like fairly often because I know he likes it. I rarely make something that I like but he doesn't. I wonder why. Is this love? Some sense of a woman's duty? Is it just because I want someone to actually eat what I cook? I don't know for sure.

I know that I love to cook for people who will appreciate what I make, but am more ambivalent when I know that people won't really care. Does this make me selfish? Unwomanlike? Or just human?

Finally, on those nights when I don't want to cook, why is it always me who has to actually ask husband to cook or get take-out. Why can't he offer? Why is dinner always my responsibility? Is this because he's a chauvenist? (he rarely exhibits any signs of chauvenism) Because he's 46 and his mom is very traditional? Or just because dinner is my area?

I don't have great answers to this stuff. I have read all kinds of academic literature on women's roles, feminist issues, even home cooking (I'm an anthropologist/folklorist). But I still struggle with these issues myself.

-Rinsewind

This is such a great post. I don't have any great answers to any of this stuff, but I do notice that as my son gets older there are tendencies that are not appealing to me. How does he walk through the kitchen and never see the things that need to be put away? What mechanism in his mind allows him to think that once he makes himself a hamburger the lettuce, tomato, mustard and grease splatters disappear? No really, he cannot see them any more. I know he doesn't think it's my job, because I have spent nearly 19 years saying, "Clean that." "Wipe this." "Put that away." "Are you really gonna wear that?" (Oh wait, that's a different post for another board. :wink: )

I also tend to make what someone else likes, and rarely what I want. I guess that's why I said earlier that I am excited to live alone and cook just for me. But I can also understand the comments about not cooking anymore when there is no one else to cook for. Will that cause a lack of inspiration?

I don't think you are unwomanly or selfish. I think it is a human trait to want to be appreciated. It is a hard thing to continue to do something and hear "yuck".

Maybe you and your husband could trade?

Ellen

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What a thought-provoking thread -- and post.

I consider myself a feminist. I am a professor, as is my husband. I do all of the household cooking. Husband does all of the table setting/clearing/dishes. We have two small children (5 and 2). Husband does fully half the childcare, and is a fantastic dad, even if brushing daughter's hair perplexes him no end. We divide up all other household chores. Seems like an equitable arrangement, and feels like it much of the time.

However, when I examine things, there are nuances that sometimes bother me.

I also find that I modify what I would like to make for my husband's tastes. I see that I make stuff that I don't like fairly often because I know he likes it. I rarely make something that I like but he doesn't. I wonder why. Is this love? Some sense of a woman's duty? Is it just because I want someone to actually eat what I cook? I don't know for sure.

-Rinsewind

I don't have any answers to your questions, but Rinsewind, you are not alone!

In my case, I didn't marry until I was 41. During my single years, I cooked for myself on most days (save for occasional lunches or dinners out, occasional take-out when I felt lazy, or Stouffer's frozen mac & cheese), making exactly what I wanted and experimenting liberally. If I couldn't down the number of servings in a recipe, I made the whole thing and froze the leftovers for future meals. (My sister, also single, handles this a different way, eating the leftovers every day until they're finished!)

Since getting married, I find myself more often than not preparing the foods my husband likes to eat. In general, we're both "foodies" and especially adore Asian foods. But he won't touch chicken thighs, so I never cook them (except when roasting a whole chicken, and then I'm the one who eats both thighs). He suddenly decided that he doesn't like salmon, so a whole package of salmon fillets is just sitting in the freezer. Our pasta is usually spaghetti with a tomato-based sauce, because he doesn't really like short shapes or cream sauces. OTOH, he loves sausage (which I didn't grow up eating and can take or leave), so that shows up with some frequency in our meals. And much to my surprise, thanks to him, I recently learned that I actually like green peppers--raw or barely cooked--which I always thought I abhored.

Like you, "I make stuff that I don't like fairly often because I know he likes it. I rarely make something that I like but he doesn't."

I think that all humans--except for sociopaths--have an innate desire to please others because we are "rewarded" by the others liking us. In our society, however, it's more inculcated into women.

SuzySushi

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I try to tailor the meals that I prepare to the tastes of everyone in the house, not just my husband. If it's something that my kids absolutely will not eat, I either make a separate meal for them, or I save those meals for the days the kids are having overnights with the in-laws.

It helps that I have a husband who will eat pretty much anything as long as it's not crawling off the plate, and children who actually like vegetables, fish and other things that most people wouldn't consider to be kid friendly foods.

I do have to deal with the limitations of my kids food allergies and the lactose intolerance of the adults in the house. Those are absolutes as no meal is worth a trip to the emergency room, or extended periods of time in the restroom.

When it comes to my kids, there is a weird dynamic to what I cook. I've been known to search for days for a "safe" donut recipe for my kids, or a decent substitute for soy sauce, or wheat free soba noodles. I've spent more time e-mailing and calling food manufacturers/processors than I can remember.

Cheryl

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Here's some interesting thoughts from Reay Tannahill's "Food in History" in the section "The Birth of Civilization":

(In this section, the subject is the 7000 years where humanity moved from a Stone Age existence into a state of civilization. Beforehand, women and men appear to have been more or less equal in the division of labor that provided the family's meals, but after this transition, Tannahill writes, "emerging from the Neolithic mists, most institutions, most inventions and all power were the prerogative of the male")

Part of the explanation may be found in the division of labor during the agricultural revolution. The changing pattern of life increased woman's burdens while it lightened man's. Instead of living in a cave, bearing and burying children, and gathering such food and fuel as she could find, woman now had a primitive house  to look after, essential crops to cultivate and care for, and most of the responsibility for husking and grinding the grain. Man, by contrast, was released from the physical and mental strains of the hunt to the peaceable tending of his flocks, which gave him both time and opportunity for constructive thinking, formulating plans, setting up and attending village councils, and criticizing woman's lack of inventiveness in the matter of crop raising. In the end he took over.

In view of the snowball effect it is possible - even probable - that the superficially minor differences between cultivating crops and caring for livestock may have played a major role in bringing about the transformation from an egalitarian society into what was indisputably a man's world.

I'm not sure what to take away from this* except that it reinforces my own feelings that I don't ever really want to be a truck farmer. :rolleyes:

P.S. *Except, to wonder if there is something in a historic or factual way about "care-work" (which includes home-cooking for the family) that substantially removes it from a place where it could or would ever, finally, be respected as much as the work of a "professional" (for in "professional" jobs one major factor is time allotted and time respected by others, for the one that is doing it, for thinking). The thinking part. If care-work were to be altered in society's perception, to something that included "time for creative thinking" then maybe it could cast off the aspersions that lurk in odd ways near it.

Interesting, too, to read azurite's earlier excellent post above, and then thinking of the historical perspective that Tannahill provides:

My understanding of feminism is that it calls for women (and men) to have the power and freedom to choose what one will do or to find out, by effort, training, etc., what one is able to do, as opposed to be told: this is what women/men do, you can't do what the other sex does, that's how it is (not unlike a class based society). So a man should have the choice to stay at home and raise his kids and a woman to be a research scientist, without having to struggle with a great deal of negative peer and/or societal pressure to behave otherwise; that both sexes should have the pleasure of doing well what he/she likes to do w/out having that pleasure spoiled or even ruined by guilt for liking it (because you're "unnatural" to do so) or being good at it instead of whatever tradition or the culture says you're "supposed" to do and like doing. If a woman wants to stay home w/the kids and she and her partner/spouse can afford for her to do so, why not?

It has happened that "women's work" has been work that is poorly paid (and sometimes it's because women are doing it) pretty often . It is certainly not unheard of for women to be paid less for doing the same job that the man in the next office is doing, or in the next MD's office.

Edited by Carrot Top (log)
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And of course nothing in my attempt above to resolve and/or improve the societal status of the woman (man? :biggrin: ) in the kitchen at home helps this thing I have of thinking of food in the romantic way that I tend to, but at least maybe it could provide some respect as a side dish. :laugh:

Edited by Carrot Top (log)
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This is such a touching subject. I've got so many feelings tied up in what everyone else has written. I can't even begin to add my won. Let it be enough that I say thank you, Karen. For this thread with myriad feelings embedded within.

More Than Salt

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Our culture has just bought into the processed food industry's schtick that cooking is boring and tedious and time consuming.

I dont think its only that. It IS tedious and difficult to get a meal on the table 5 days a week, within 40 min of arriving home from work, and one that is acceptable to oneself, the spousal and the offspring units. It involves shortcuts, and simple recipes. So, cooking maybe became tedious when some of us who enjoy cooking also decided to enjoy working fulltime outside the home. Its much more fun on Saturday.

"You dont know everything in the world! You just know how to read!" -an ah-hah! moment for 6-yr old Miss O.

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What a thought-provoking thread -- and post.
I consider myself a feminist. I am a professor, as is my husband. I do all of the household cooking. Husband does all of the table setting/clearing/dishes. We have two small children (5 and 2). Husband does fully half the childcare, and is a fantastic dad, even if brushing daughter's hair perplexes him no end. We divide up all other household chores. Seems like an equitable arrangement, and feels like it much of the time.

However, when I examine things, there are nuances that sometimes bother me.

I also find that I modify what I would like to make for my husband's tastes. I see that I make stuff that I don't like fairly often because I know he likes it. I rarely make something that I like but he doesn't. I wonder why. Is this love? Some sense of a woman's duty? Is it just because I want someone to actually eat what I cook? I don't know for sure.

-Rinsewind

I don't have any answers to your questions, but Rinsewind, you are not alone!

In my case, I didn't marry until I was 41. During my single years, I cooked for myself on most days (save for occasional lunches or dinners out, occasional take-out when I felt lazy, or Stouffer's frozen mac & cheese), making exactly what I wanted and experimenting liberally. If I couldn't down the number of servings in a recipe, I made the whole thing and froze the leftovers for future meals. (My sister, also single, handles this a different way, eating the leftovers every day until they're finished!)

Since getting married, I find myself more often than not preparing the foods my husband likes to eat. In general, we're both "foodies" and especially adore Asian foods. But he won't touch chicken thighs, so I never cook them (except when roasting a whole chicken, and then I'm the one who eats both thighs). He suddenly decided that he doesn't like salmon, so a whole package of salmon fillets is just sitting in the freezer. Our pasta is usually spaghetti with a tomato-based sauce, because he doesn't really like short shapes or cream sauces. OTOH, he loves sausage (which I didn't grow up eating and can take or leave), so that shows up with some frequency in our meals. And much to my surprise, thanks to him, I recently learned that I actually like green peppers--raw or barely cooked--which I always thought I abhored.

Like you, "I make stuff that I don't like fairly often because I know he likes it. I rarely make something that I like but he doesn't."

I think that all humans--except for sociopaths--have an innate desire to please others because we are "rewarded" by the others liking us. In our society, however, it's more inculcated into women.

I think it is kind of sad that not more of the menfolk are reading this thread - they should be part of this discourse. I, for instance often need to be told that I am being less than sensitive.

Two thoughts:

Rincewind, could it be that your husband feels intimidated or unempowered. Perhaps he feels his meals will not pass muster when compared to yours? Not that you are a harsh critic, but men often fear failure, even of the most seemingly banal kind.

SuzySushi, is the problem communication or stubbornness on his part. If the latter, perhaps he might agree to certain foods you like with a preparation he likes.

I am just riffing here. Interesting topic, good read, important subject.

Edited by menon1971 (log)
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